Old heads, is it true Reasonable Doubt...

dora_da_destroyer

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you aint from no hoods.

fallback jack.





a point of reference serves as a comparison.

im not pushing any narrative. in fact, the only thing i'd prefer to push concerning jay-z nowadays is his face.

he wasnt a mainstream star yet but he wasnt just some face in the crowd. he was huge in the streets of the east coast and had a big national hit, along with other forms of mainstream exposure. thats not just another face in the crowd. thats a big deal. when the 2nd album was getting ready to drop, people were looking for him to take over right then & there.
Stop, because if we're gonna do that, then everyone was huge somewhere, and many east coast cats have said in this thread he was second fiddle. National hit? That was just as much due to foxy's popularity as has been stated. People looking for him to take over? Again, that's east coast narrative, people weren't awaiting vol 1 elsewhere, it dropped and people fukked with it. I could see you saying that about vol 2 because of the combined success of vol 1 and streets is watching, but vol 1? Nah
 

DANJ!

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Cant believe this is still a topic being debated... :huhldup:

I dont think anybody... even Jay himself... has ever said he was a big star off this album. Nobody.

HOWEVER, for those who weren't listening/plugged in/alive in '96, Reasonable Doubt did good numbers and spawned hits. To compare it to what the Fugees sold or Pac sold is off-base. It's not even that kind of album, honestly.

The Fugees had songs built to be hits, especially with Lauryn coming into her own and scoring that major worldwide single with 'Killing Me Softly'. Pac was already a superstar for like three years prior, and had just signed with Death Row, collabing with other susperstars such as Dre and Snoop. Reasonable Doubt is Jay-Z, a 'relatively new' MC on his debut album, with production by guys who mostly did street-aimed music. It wasn't an album that was gonna hit with the MTV crowd, or pop a bunch of big radio singles. So naturally, it didn't do much in that respect. At that point, he did what most artists had to do back then, which is make a breakthrough. Everybody wasn't just killin' radio and selling millions first time out. In fact, neither Pac nor Nas did it on their debut albums either. But it wasn't all about that. What Jay did with Reasonable Doubt was established himself as one of the best to enter the rap game at that time. Some artists made bigger hits, some did better numbers, but even they weren't being considered what Jay was. Nobody believed in '96 that Crucial Conflict, or Coolio, or Foxy were some of the best MCs around, they just sold great. Jay went gold (when that was still a goal for artists to reach) and established himself as a name in the game, that simple. He wasn't BIG or Nas level at the time... but he was well ahead of what (at the time) was a city full of people competing to reach that level.
 

Homeboy Runny-Ray

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Nobody believed in '96 that Crucial Conflict, or Coolio, or Foxy were some of the best MCs around, they just sold great. Jay went gold (when that was still a goal for artists to reach) and established himself as a name in the game, that simple. He wasn't BIG or Nas level at the time... but he was well ahead of what (at the time) was a city full of people competing to reach that level.


funny thing is, jay probably outsold crucial conflict back then.

they only went gold.


Stop, because if we're gonna do that, then everyone was huge somewhere, and many east coast cats have said in this thread he was second fiddle. National hit? That was just as much due to foxy's popularity as has been stated. People looking for him to take over? Again, that's east coast narrative, people weren't awaiting vol 1 elsewhere, it dropped and people fukked with it. I could see you saying that about vol 2 because of the combined success of vol 1 and streets is watching, but vol 1? Nah


what east coast cats said that? probably some dudes that stayed in the house.

yea you can credit a good part of that to foxy, but who wrote the bulk of her raps?

the latter is all that really matters. im talking about people claiming that he was just another guy. if you establish yourself as a contender in your region, while making a mark nationally, then youre clearly not just another guy.

like i said earlier, there were only 4 or 5 camps that were truly factors all across the map back then. so by the coli's logic, that would mean 95% of the rap game was filled with random rappers. if you agree to that, then i guess we're on the same page.
 

dora_da_destroyer

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@dora_da_destroyer

what are your thoughts on nas & illmatic?
As in? The album itself? Sales? Cultural impact? Anticipation?

I can only speak on Illmatic in hindsight, I remember my bro had it when it came out because I heard "life's a bytch" damn near everyday yet had no clue who it was. I was clearly a child of the west coast then and with the whole death row run going, I didn't hear it until after IWW dropped (I might not have revisited it until I Am actually), so outside of being able to talk about the album just as a piece of work, I can't speak on it during the time it dropped.
 

Cloud McFly

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thread is funny.

whats even more funny is people acting like jay wouldnt be hot if pac & big were alive - while proppin up nas in the same post as if jay didnt pass nas up.:laugh:

plus jay was on his first album and accomplished more than 2pac & nas did on their first joints.:whistle: jay was an independent new-comer to an already over-crowded game. he didnt have the luxury of dropping his album at a time when the east coast was looking for a big star like biggie had the luxury of doing in '94 under clive davis, la reid & puffy.

and this whole "his album wasnt getting any play over here" thing is crazy. theres only a handful of squads that were a factor across the map. death row, bad boy, bone thugs and you can say wutang to an extent. then you had the fugees on the commercial end, and LL became a legacy act. thats pretty much it.






youre playing yourself here.

youre trying to combine 2 different arguments.

i wasnt saying he was poppin simply because he was on mtv. i was responding to people in here claiming that jay was a nobody in '96. you got people in here saying that nobody knew who jay was before 2pac dissed him. thats bullchit.

cable was beyond commonplace at this point breh. most people had cable or a chip.
the vast majority of people who didnt have either were old-fashioned or in poverty unfortunately.





and treacherous three sampled it before them.

:sas1:





ehh.

'88 & '95 were better.





nah. everything was not getting played everyday.

they only had 20 slots tops.

plus jay was getting play outside of just rap city. he was on every channel.





dude didnt say dogg pound tho.

he claimed that kurupt himself was bigger than jay-z.

dap + rep

You can tell who was actually old enough to remember and was actually into rap at the time this went down.

I'm just sitting here laughing at these cats spouting off all type of outlandish shyt. You got cats in here saying nobody was checking for Jay anywhere, but I'm from Detroit And lived there at the time and his shyt was popping around my way, so I know other places had to be up on it.

Add that to the fact that the album went gold in 3 months on a indie label, while Illmatic took a year and 9 months to do the same on a major, but I guarantee these same cats would act like Nas was on top of the game when his debut dropped, and that's because they don't know shyt.

I will never act as if he was one of the top dogs at the time because that wasn't the case, but to act as if he wasn't making any noise is asisine, as the facts prove otherwise.
 
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Who gives a shyt what was being played on the west coast.Celly cel and mac mall got tick out there back in those days and both them nikkas wakk as hell

The world don't revolve around the west coast.I live in the midwest and knew who jay was off radio/videos and being a hip hop head.Anybody saying jay was a nobody in 96 was young as hell in 96 or running with a narrative.Nobody saying jay was a star he was an up n coming rapper in an era where hip hop was deep as hell with established acts of course he was at the bottom of the food chain but to say he was a nobody is a lie.Pac spent energy name dropping a so called 'nobody' and big collabed with a 'nobody' on several songs.
you can make a point without slandering other rappers and for the record mac mall is pure dopeness
 

STAN JONES

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You can tell who was actually old enough to remember and was actually into rap at the time this went down.

I'm just sitting here laughing at these cats spouting off all type of outlandish shyt. You got cats in here saying nobody was checking for Jay anywhere, but I'm from Detroit And lived there at the time and his shyt was popping around my way, so I know other places had to be up on it.

Add that to the fact that the album went gold in 3 months on a indie label, while Illmatic took a year and 9 months to do the same on a major, but I guarantee these same cats would act like Nas was on top of the game when his debut dropped, and that's because they don't know shyt.

I will never act as if he was one of the top dogs at the time because that wasn't the case, but to act as if he wasn't making any noise is asisine, as the facts prove otherwise.
Even though i agree with the point you're trying to make going gold in 3 months wasn't really special back in 96

No Limit D-lister were going gold with no problem back then
 

mobbinfms

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and treacherous three sampled it before them.
It was Flash and the Furious Five but they replayed it.
I remember that thread from your tournament well :russ:
dude didnt say dogg pound tho.

he claimed that kurupt himself was bigger than jay-z.
Then it's an unfair comparison. By the same token you could say Jay was bigger than any one member of Bone in 96 which obviously seems ridiculous.
That's the thing, people remember dead presidents, but it didn't make people jump up and say I gotta cop this...as I said earlier in this thread, i fukked with that song, had no clue who a jay z was when it dropped (thought he bit AZ's name lol) and told my brothers I was gonna buy his cd and got laughed out the room...that was the majority response to him "smack, who is this nikka".

Vol 1 put him in the game nationally tho, plus the feature on foxy's "I'll be". Vol 2 made him a superstar and birthed one of the best concerts ever! Hard Knock Life tour and Up In Smoke - GOAT hip hop tours.
:russ:
So did you buy the album or not?
Should have trusted your instincts if you didn't.
Kind of underscores my point though, I'll bet you ended up being a bigger fan of this shyt then any of your brothers.
All this time I've been thinking you was a east coast nikka:jbhmm:
Nah - I just have an appreciation for east coast shyt.
Celly Cel is ok (not great, but not wack), but Mac Mall w
They were both dope. But Mall was on another level :wow:
it was his debut album as an independent artist.
Did anyone really consider Priority an independent back then?
I thought of them as a major since some Bay Area rappers were signing to them and in the Bay it was a big deal if you stayed independent as opposed to going to a major.
he had a heavier foot in the game than 2pac did on his debut - with a major. but let this board tell it, nobody would exist in 2020 if 2pac was still alive.
:ohhh:
Can't dispute any of this.
 

dora_da_destroyer

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It was Flash and the Furious Five but they replayed it.
I remember that thread from your tournament well :russ:

Then it's an unfair comparison. By the same token you could say Jay was bigger than any one member of Bone in 96 which obviously seems ridiculous.

:russ:
So did you buy the album or not?
Should have trusted your instincts if you didn't.
Kind of underscores my point though, I'll bet you ended up being a bigger fan of this shyt then any of your brothers.

Nah - I just have an appreciation for east coast shyt.

They were both dope. But Mall was on another level :wow:

Did anyone really consider Priority an independent back then?
I thought of them as a major since some Bay Area rappers were signing to them and in the Bay it was a big deal if you stayed independent as opposed to going to a major.

:ohhh:
Can't dispute any of this.
nope :mjcry:

that's one of those moments where i knew my taste in hip hop was impeccable :wow: lol, i was like, i damn near put yall old nikkas onto jay z. but that's also why i followed him more closely than the average person and remember his ascent. i copped vol 1 and every other cd - black album, everything after that got bootlegged
 

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You can tell who was actually old enough to remember and was actually into rap at the time this went down.

I'm just sitting here laughing at these cats spouting off all type of outlandish shyt. You got cats in here saying nobody was checking for Jay anywhere, but I'm from Detroit And lived there at the time and his shyt was popping around my way, so I know other places had to be up on it.

Add that to the fact that the album went gold in 3 months on a indie label, while Illmatic took a year and 9 months to do the same on a major, but I guarantee these same cats would act like Nas was on top of the game when his debut dropped, and that's because they don't know shyt.

I will never act as if he was one of the top dogs at the time because that wasn't the case, but to act as if he wasn't making any noise is asisine, as the facts prove otherwise.

Word.I grew up in chicago and Jay was getting play that summer not just on the radio or videos, my boy had a tracker with 18's and stayed bangin can I live and brooklyns finest.Anybody who says otherwise is lying or were a shorty back then
 

hex

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Pac name dropped Chino XL & Lil Cease, to


Big did a track with Lil Shawn



Even Jay admitted to being "lukewarm" at that time.

Of course nikkaz were aware of Jay in '96.

It's just that, outside of NY, nobody was really wowed, or checking for him like that


This isn't an accurate comparison.

Jay was 100% on Pac's radar, by the time "Hit Em Up" dropped. Hussein Fatal said that song originally had a verse for Jay because he was an emerging talent on the east coast who might be a problem in the future. He wanted to nip Jay in the bud. The Outlawz talked him out of it because every other name on the song had slighted Pac in some way, dissing Jay out of left field would make it seem like he didn't have a focus with the song.

Fred.
 
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This isn't an accurate comparison.

Jay was 100% on Pac's radar, by the time "Hit Em Up" dropped. Hussein Fatal said that song originally had a verse for Jay because he was an emerging talent on the east coast who might be a problem in the future. He wanted to nip Jay in the bud. The Outlawz talked him out of it because every other name on the song had slighted Pac in some way, dissing Jay out of left field would make it seem like he didn't have a focus with the song.

Fred.


I can concede to this point.I remember Fatal(RIP) talking about that in an interview.


About Pac seeing Jay as a potential threat.....I remember that.Fatal thought Jay was vicious on the mic.

RD Jay was vicious.I'm not denying that...His best album IMO

"Can I live" is one of those rare rap tracks where every bar/ the whole damn song is a quotable.

But it got lost in the shuffle back in '96
 

big bun

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One of the homies had RD, so I dubbed it. It was considered a very good album back then in my circles. Jigs was the only one talmbout it was a classic back then though. I bought the CD eventually and it is in my collection to this day.
 

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All pac said on hit en up was Jays name in the shouts at the end before Lil Kim and cease and the .44 and kids growing line. No verse at jay. Fatal had pac remove Jays name as jay hadn't dropped yet.
 
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