Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread
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Deep_Black_Conscious
Superstar
Sixers might need a player like Trier
If I'm the Knicks I would trade him too and try to nab Thybulle (I doubt they give him up)
If I'm the Knicks I would trade him too and try to nab Thybulle (I doubt they give him up)
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
I'd trade Morris only if he wants to leave and to whatever team he wants to go to, out of respect for his hard work.
I'd trade Randle to the G leagues for 10 first picks and a happy meal.
I'd trade Randle to the G leagues for 10 first picks and a happy meal.
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
Thybulle is untouchable
He will be one of the greatest defensive players of All-Time
Deep_Black_Conscious
Superstar
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
Man, RJ needs to work on his defense if his offense is off. At least Knox gets blocks and rebounds.He would be perfect next to RJ
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
fukk it you guys set me off. Want me to defend Steve Mills? I got you.
FIRST, let me note that the difference between judging a coach and judging a GM is that the effects of coaching are MUCH more readily evident than the effects of managing a team. You can coach a team that SHOULD fit together in a way that is so bad, that it mitigates whatever positives you may gain from the talent on the court. Of course, if you have high IQ players, they can subvert that bad coaching and still maintain wins. That is NOT what we have here. We have a young, inexperienced team, cobbled together with 1 or 2 above average IQ vets, but otherwise low IQ players. But I wanted to make this point because some may think me taking this position even a little bit when I wouldn't make this position at all with Fizdale was because any defense of Fizdale was in regards to the construction of the roster...which is completely out of his hands. Every criticism of Mills is based on his decisions which are more difficult to judge than Fizdales. Do I think Mills should stay? No, but the argument can be made that he's not terrible, just like the argument probably could've been made that Fizdale was not terrible. In fact, I have said numerous times that Fizdale would probably be a GREAT coach on a team full of high IQ and star players. Basically, the antithesis of this team
Second, let me note that the PLAN that Scott Perry and Steve Mills designed was actually a GOOD one. They shipped out our disgruntled star player in Kristaps for cap space to acquire high end talent, they committed to a losing season in a year where the top of the draft was full of talent, they made sure their recently acquired rookies (Mitch, Knox & Trier) prime position to hold all of the chips...they took a good gamble and lost. Now I say this as someone who warned Knicks fans against being ovexrly confident that it would play out in the best interests of the Knicks because I was aware this was all a gamble...and there are no sure bets in real gambling situations. I knew having a bad record didn't guarantee us Zion in the draft...I knew there were no guarantees that we would end up with Durant or ANY high end free agents...and unfortunately my warnings of potential disaster bore fruit. BUT that doesn't mean the Knicks shouldn't have tried. Because...
(Third) This team would have been REALLY GOOD if it didn't have such bad luck. Fizdale, Mills and Perry got a raw deal.... I'll say that again. Fizdale, Mills and Perry got a raw deal. The one thing I bit my tongue on all season was HOW GOOD this team would have looked if just one of this front office's hopes would have bore fruit. Fizdale for all his faults, had a very good coaching strategy for the team he never got to play with. When Fizdale was coaching, all I could do was to think "Man, if Kristaps were starting next to Randle, this team would bevc transformed...man if KD were taking those shots instead of Randle, this team would look so good...man if we had Kristaps and Mitch playing together, who would be able to finish at the rim?" Look, good GMs have contingency plans for when the A plan doesn't bear out....and I'm not saying our front office had a good contingency plan...just that they had one. Who could have predicted that KD has a devastating injury in the playoffs that would put him out the following season? Who could have predicted that NONE of the worst teams in the league would pick higher than 3 in the draft (Suns picked 6th, Cavs picked 5th, Knicks ended up with the second worst possibility out of 4...think about that)? Who could have predicted that the ONE TEAM who would've looked to trade their star player for the number one pick would end up with the number one pick themselves? The odds of all of those things happening to derail the Knicks plans were astronomical...but they happened. fukk this current roster being their B plan...this was their D, E, or F plan. We need to remember this when being harsh on the front office and even on Fizdale. The Knicks are bad mostly because of atrocious luck and because the only teams who hit the jackpot were teams who were already improved over the past couple of years, or were already good/had a star player. I suppose you can blame Mills for that, but he inherited a Knicks team with a star so disgruntled with his predecessor that he wanted to be traded, and that in turn saw the beginnings of a disgruntled Kristaps (our supposed future star). Phil's transgressions fukked this team for the next two years. Of this there should be no debate.
So, here's my conclusion which will actually counteract most of what I said. My first point was that it's harder to judge a GM than to judge a coach...which is true. I've also said that the Knicks would be good if they didn't have such bad luck which is also true. But the caveat for both is that the beginning of Steve Mills presidency was so bad that it continues to leave a stink on it post-2016. Steve Mills was the Team President who hired Phil Jackson (which as I've noted severely fukked the Knicks for years). Which means that the Phil Jackson era and whatever stench remains from it IS on him. Whatever slack he could've gotten from blaming some of the Knicks bad moments these past couple of years ultimately does come back to him for hiring Phil and giving him autonomy in the first place (although I would be remiss to note that this probably wasn't his decision but Dolan's). And so subsequently, everything DOES fall back to him. He hired Phil, he hired Fizdale, he lucked into winning the Melo trade, and he's currently losing the KP trade that probably doesn't happen if he had never hired Phil (or traded Hernangomez, or had a better relationship with Janis Porzingis). The only defense Mills has now is that the last half of his presidency far exceeds the first half, even with the bad record. Scott Perry is the anti-Phil Jackson, and while he has a propensity to overvalue his past picks/projects, he hasn't made any waves for making poor decisions with his pen or his mouth. Last season's decision to tank was the correct one, and this season's decision to acquire short contract talent in order to gain a few more wins needs the season to play out. 2017 was the "fix Phil's mess" and "it's KP's team" year that ended in a torn-ACL. So what does it all mean? It means that while Mills should go, if the season bears some success after Fizdale's firing, that maybe we should hold off the firing squad. If Mills/Perry can create some semblance of improvement and prove that they can learn from past mistakes, that perhaps we should allow them to continue their vision. Any questionable moves they've made since 2018 are still currently under review. They haven't signed any albatross contracts that will be impossible to move, they've kept the young talent, they've kept their picks, they have young players that show All-Star potential, All-Defense potential, and at the very least would be serviceable on a playoff roster. I don't expect for Miller to come close to a .500 win season, or compete for a playoff spot with the hole Fiz dug and with the current talent level on the team. And while I believe if he'd been coaching all season the Knicks would probably have been able to achieve those things, that's just an indictment on the FO not recognizing how bad things were going to be until the Knicks lost by 80 points over two games. That's being reactionary...not proactive. If Masai Ujiri or another high level executive is available, the Knicks should get them just to ensure that the plan Mills/Perry have started doesn't get sidetracked by nostalgia or Dolan decision-making. But if they can't and the Knicks ride this season out winning a good amount of games, it may not be the end of the world
FIRST, let me note that the difference between judging a coach and judging a GM is that the effects of coaching are MUCH more readily evident than the effects of managing a team. You can coach a team that SHOULD fit together in a way that is so bad, that it mitigates whatever positives you may gain from the talent on the court. Of course, if you have high IQ players, they can subvert that bad coaching and still maintain wins. That is NOT what we have here. We have a young, inexperienced team, cobbled together with 1 or 2 above average IQ vets, but otherwise low IQ players. But I wanted to make this point because some may think me taking this position even a little bit when I wouldn't make this position at all with Fizdale was because any defense of Fizdale was in regards to the construction of the roster...which is completely out of his hands. Every criticism of Mills is based on his decisions which are more difficult to judge than Fizdales. Do I think Mills should stay? No, but the argument can be made that he's not terrible, just like the argument probably could've been made that Fizdale was not terrible. In fact, I have said numerous times that Fizdale would probably be a GREAT coach on a team full of high IQ and star players. Basically, the antithesis of this team
Second, let me note that the PLAN that Scott Perry and Steve Mills designed was actually a GOOD one. They shipped out our disgruntled star player in Kristaps for cap space to acquire high end talent, they committed to a losing season in a year where the top of the draft was full of talent, they made sure their recently acquired rookies (Mitch, Knox & Trier) prime position to hold all of the chips...they took a good gamble and lost. Now I say this as someone who warned Knicks fans against being ovexrly confident that it would play out in the best interests of the Knicks because I was aware this was all a gamble...and there are no sure bets in real gambling situations. I knew having a bad record didn't guarantee us Zion in the draft...I knew there were no guarantees that we would end up with Durant or ANY high end free agents...and unfortunately my warnings of potential disaster bore fruit. BUT that doesn't mean the Knicks shouldn't have tried. Because...
(Third) This team would have been REALLY GOOD if it didn't have such bad luck. Fizdale, Mills and Perry got a raw deal.... I'll say that again. Fizdale, Mills and Perry got a raw deal. The one thing I bit my tongue on all season was HOW GOOD this team would have looked if just one of this front office's hopes would have bore fruit. Fizdale for all his faults, had a very good coaching strategy for the team he never got to play with. When Fizdale was coaching, all I could do was to think "Man, if Kristaps were starting next to Randle, this team would bevc transformed...man if KD were taking those shots instead of Randle, this team would look so good...man if we had Kristaps and Mitch playing together, who would be able to finish at the rim?" Look, good GMs have contingency plans for when the A plan doesn't bear out....and I'm not saying our front office had a good contingency plan...just that they had one. Who could have predicted that KD has a devastating injury in the playoffs that would put him out the following season? Who could have predicted that NONE of the worst teams in the league would pick higher than 3 in the draft (Suns picked 6th, Cavs picked 5th, Knicks ended up with the second worst possibility out of 4...think about that)? Who could have predicted that the ONE TEAM who would've looked to trade their star player for the number one pick would end up with the number one pick themselves? The odds of all of those things happening to derail the Knicks plans were astronomical...but they happened. fukk this current roster being their B plan...this was their D, E, or F plan. We need to remember this when being harsh on the front office and even on Fizdale. The Knicks are bad mostly because of atrocious luck and because the only teams who hit the jackpot were teams who were already improved over the past couple of years, or were already good/had a star player. I suppose you can blame Mills for that, but he inherited a Knicks team with a star so disgruntled with his predecessor that he wanted to be traded, and that in turn saw the beginnings of a disgruntled Kristaps (our supposed future star). Phil's transgressions fukked this team for the next two years. Of this there should be no debate.
So, here's my conclusion which will actually counteract most of what I said. My first point was that it's harder to judge a GM than to judge a coach...which is true. I've also said that the Knicks would be good if they didn't have such bad luck which is also true. But the caveat for both is that the beginning of Steve Mills presidency was so bad that it continues to leave a stink on it post-2016. Steve Mills was the Team President who hired Phil Jackson (which as I've noted severely fukked the Knicks for years). Which means that the Phil Jackson era and whatever stench remains from it IS on him. Whatever slack he could've gotten from blaming some of the Knicks bad moments these past couple of years ultimately does come back to him for hiring Phil and giving him autonomy in the first place (although I would be remiss to note that this probably wasn't his decision but Dolan's). And so subsequently, everything DOES fall back to him. He hired Phil, he hired Fizdale, he lucked into winning the Melo trade, and he's currently losing the KP trade that probably doesn't happen if he had never hired Phil (or traded Hernangomez, or had a better relationship with Janis Porzingis). The only defense Mills has now is that the last half of his presidency far exceeds the first half, even with the bad record. Scott Perry is the anti-Phil Jackson, and while he has a propensity to overvalue his past picks/projects, he hasn't made any waves for making poor decisions with his pen or his mouth. Last season's decision to tank was the correct one, and this season's decision to acquire short contract talent in order to gain a few more wins needs the season to play out. 2017 was the "fix Phil's mess" and "it's KP's team" year that ended in a torn-ACL. So what does it all mean? It means that while Mills should go, if the season bears some success after Fizdale's firing, that maybe we should hold off the firing squad. If Mills/Perry can create some semblance of improvement and prove that they can learn from past mistakes, that perhaps we should allow them to continue their vision. Any questionable moves they've made since 2018 are still currently under review. They haven't signed any albatross contracts that will be impossible to move, they've kept the young talent, they've kept their picks, they have young players that show All-Star potential, All-Defense potential, and at the very least would be serviceable on a playoff roster. I don't expect for Miller to come close to a .500 win season, or compete for a playoff spot with the hole Fiz dug and with the current talent level on the team. And while I believe if he'd been coaching all season the Knicks would probably have been able to achieve those things, that's just an indictment on the FO not recognizing how bad things were going to be until the Knicks lost by 80 points over two games. That's being reactionary...not proactive. If Masai Ujiri or another high level executive is available, the Knicks should get them just to ensure that the plan Mills/Perry have started doesn't get sidetracked by nostalgia or Dolan decision-making. But if they can't and the Knicks ride this season out winning a good amount of games, it may not be the end of the world
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
Why PG playing tho? 
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
No Elfrid? No Dennis? Gee I wonder who's gonna start...
Well that was anticlimactic
Well that was anticlimactic
JMurder
SOHH Member since 01...
With Frank starting, I would've liked to see Mitch starting too but the spacing is still gonna be better with Taj there so I'm not mad. I just hope Randle gets back to his good play, and Mook starts hitting shots
Flex Luger
Job Is Finished
Looking at the salaries the Sixers would have to move a starter to make a trade for Morris to work since everybody else is on small money deals.
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
Just thinking from a developmental perspective, I think Alvin Gentry would've been perfect for Frank, RJ and Knox.
Striving For Greatness
Get Certs or Die Tryin
“Knickas”
Peter Popoff
PROTECT YA NECK!! 🖕🏽🇺🇲
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