Peter King: GMs hesitant on mobile QBs

[NYC Rebel]

What NFL qb is ever drafted and are good SIMPLY for their mobility and nothing more?

When has that ever existed?

 

[Robbie3000]

I would be too. Black QBs are excelling at unprecedented levels in college, but not so much in the NFL. In college, where defenses are not as athletic as the NFL then scrambling and using your feet is a lot easier, not so much in the NFL where you have DE and Line Backers with ungodly speed and strength.

Once in NFL black QBs have to learn a whole new way to play from how they have been playing since pop warner. That's difficult as hell. Meanwhile a white QB has been playing the same way since he started playing. So it's an easier transition.

But then again, how many truly elite QBs are there anyway? A handful? Black QBs also have a higher expectation to carry the team the same way they did in college which is not really fair. (Cam, RG3, Young)

 

[NYC Rebel]

I would be too. Black QBs are excelling at unprecedented levels in college, but not so much in the NFL. In college, where defenses are not as athletic as the NFL then scrambling and using your feet is a lot easier, not so much in the NFL where you have DE and Line Backers with ungodly speed and strength.

Once in NFL black QBs have to learn a whole new way to play from how they have been playing since pop warner. That's difficult as hell. Meanwhile a white QB has been playing the same way since he started playing. So it's an easier transition.

But then again, how many truly elite QBs are there anyway? A handful? Black QBs also have a higher expectation to carry the team the same way they did in college which is not really fair. (Cam, RG3, Young)

Point is, it there's a handful of elite qbs anyway, there's a BOATLOAD of "pure pocket and nothing more passer" failures. And in their failings, why isn't there a stigma or homogenous grouping slandering their limited style of play? We know why

 

[King Kreole]

Point is, it there's a handful of elite qbs anyway, there's a BOATLOAD of "pure pocket and nothing more passer" failures. And in their failings, why isn't there a stigma or homogenous grouping slandering their limited style of play? We know why

For some people it's racism, but the argument is sound. How are you gonna shyt on the idea of a pocket passer when the greatest to do it were pocket passers? Pocket passers get shyt on plenty (Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell, Brandon Weeden, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Jimmy Clausen, etc), but no one is gonna look at those guys and then look at Peyton and Tom and Drew and say that pocket passers are a problem. The fact that there's very few elite mobile qbs means that a few bad apples can ruin the bunch much more effectively. Until we get mobile qbs who are elite (and it's coming with Rogers and Luck and Russ and upcoming college qbs), the stigma will still be there because there's simply no really effective counter argument.

 

[resurrection]

Point is, it there's a handful of elite qbs anyway, there's a BOATLOAD of "pure pocket and nothing more passer" failures. And in their failings, why isn't there a stigma or homogenous grouping slandering their limited style of play? We know why

I addressed all your points. "Pocket QBs" don't get boxed in because "pocket passing" is the job of the NFL QB. You're essentially asking janitors who are good at cleaning to be questioned because some janitors suck at cleaning. But if a janitor got hired because he was great at basketball then turned out to be a shytty janitor, then you'd think twice before hiring a janitor again because he's good at basketball. It's common sense.

You even said yourself it is so painfully obvious that NFL QBs need to pass from the pocket. So why in god's name would anyone "box" them in if one fails? If one fails, it means his skills weren't up to par, not because his style is flawed. If his style was flawed, my point about QBs needing to pass from the pocket wouldn't be so painfully obvious, would it?

 

[resurrection]

For some people it's racism, but the argument is sound. How are you gonna shyt on the idea of a pocket passer when the greatest to do it were pocket passers? Pocket passers get shyt on plenty (Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell, Brandon Weeden, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Jimmy Clausen, etc), but no one is gonna look at those guys and then look at Peyton and Tom and Drew and say that pocket passers are a problem. The fact that there's very few elite mobile qbs means that a few bad apples can ruin the bunch much more effectively. Until we get mobile qbs who are elite (and it's coming with Rogers and Luck and Russ and upcoming college qbs), the stigma will still be there because there's simply no really effective counter argument.

Also this. And the one thing those elite mobile QBs ALL have in common is..........

 

[FTBS]

I would be too. Black QBs are excelling at unprecedented levels in college, but not so much in the NFL. In college, where defenses are not as athletic as the NFL then scrambling and using your feet is a lot easier, not so much in the NFL where you have DE and Line Backers with ungodly speed and strength.

Once in NFL black QBs have to learn a whole new way to play from how they have been playing since pop warner. That's difficult as hell. Meanwhile a white QB has been playing the same way since he started playing. So it's an easier transition.

But then again, how many truly elite QBs are there anyway? A handful? Black QBs also have a higher expectation to carry the team the same way they did in college which is not really fair. (Cam, RG3, Young)

So why do so many white QBs still fall flat on their faces or struggle despite having that "easier transition" and being given chance after chance? Everything you can say about mobile black QBs in terms of the transition to the pros you can say about white pocket passers. They struggle too. The difference is they are given chance after chance and have a million pleas copped for them and get to be judged on their own individual merits. Plenty of big arm QBs that have gotten by on their arm throughout high school and college have come and gone and most of them have failed yet you never hear anyone express hesitance when it comes to picking guys with big arms.

For some people it's racism, but the argument is sound. How are you gonna shyt on the idea of a pocket passer when the greatest to do it were pocket passers? Pocket passers get shyt on plenty (Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell, Brandon Weeden, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Jimmy Clausen, etc), but no one is gonna look at those guys and then look at Peyton and Tom and Drew and say that pocket passers are a problem. The fact that there's very few elite mobile qbs means that a few bad apples can ruin the bunch much more effectively. Until we get mobile qbs who are elite (and it's coming with Rogers and Luck and Russ and upcoming college qbs), the stigma will still be there because there's simply no really effective counter argument.

I made the counter argument in response to one of your previous posts and it was ignored. The counter argument is that being a pocket passer or a mobile guy really has no bearing on how you will transition into the league. If you can read defenses, make good decisions, and throw the ball accurately you will be good whether you are mobile or not. The percentage of pockets passers that struggle in these areas is just as high if not higher than the percentage for mobile passers.

The crazy thing is I am not even a big fan of most of the mobile QBs and I have long stressed the importance of being able to read defenses and make good decisions and throw the ball accurately. But all of this talk about mobile QBs, let's cut the bullshyt, BLACK QBs is sounding so eerily similar to the reasoning many use to support racial profiling and other racist bullshyt. White guys get judged on their own merits and just need the right situation while black guys have to atone for the sins of other black guys and circumstance is irrelevant.

 

[resurrection]

So why do so many white QBs still fall flat on their faces or struggle despite having that "easier transition" and being given chance after chance? Everything you can say about mobile black QBs in terms of the transition to the pros you can say about white pocket passers. They struggle too. The difference is they are given chance after chance and have a million pleas copped for them and get to be judged on their own individual merits. Plenty of big arm QBs that have gotten by on their arm throughout high school and college have come and gone and most of them have failed yet you never hear anyone express hesitance when it comes to picking guys with big arms.

I made the counter argument in response to one of your previous posts and it was ignored. The counter argument is that being a pocket passer or a mobile guy really has no bearing on how you will transition into the league. If you can read defenses, make good decisions, and throw the ball accurately you will be good whether you are mobile or not. The percentage of pockets passers that struggle in these areas is just as high if not higher than the percentage for mobile passers.

The crazy thing is I am not even a big fan of most of the mobile QBs and I have long stressed the importance of being able to read defenses and make good decisions and throw the ball accurately. But all of this talk about mobile QBs, let's cut the bullshyt, BLACK QBs is sounding so eerily similar to the reasoning many use to support racial profiling. White guys get judged on their own merits and just need the right situation while black guys have to atone for the sins of other black guys and circumstance is irrelevant.

Like I've said in a previous post, if any coach is making personnel decisions (ESPECIALLY at QB) based on racial biases, then that coach needs to be fired

I would hope (although I imagine it's not always the case) that coaches are well-versed enough in the guys they have on their rosters that the best players will play. It's not like coaches do this for fun, they have mouths to feed. I imagine it has happened though, like with VY in Tennessee. Problem is.. he still couldn't play the position even when he went to Philly. So maybe Jeff Fisher had good reason for never being fully sold on him.

 

[Rigby.]

Hey nikka don't quote me

Brady threw 3 TDs and over 350 yards in a 32-29

 

[King Kreole]

So why do so many white QBs still fall flat on their faces or struggle despite having that "easier transition" and being given chance after chance? Everything you can say about mobile black QBs in terms of the transition to the pros you can say about white pocket passers. They struggle too. The difference is they are given chance after chance and have a million pleas copped for them and get to be judged on their own individual merits. Plenty of big arm QBs that have gotten by on their arm throughout high school and college have come and gone and most of them have failed yet you never hear anyone express hesitance when it comes to picking guys with big arms.



I made the counter argument in response to one of your previous posts and it was ignored. The counter argument is that being a pocket passer or a mobile guy really has no bearing on how you will transition into the league. If you can read defenses, make good decisions, and throw the ball accurately you will be good whether you are mobile or not. The percentage of pockets passers that struggle in these areas is just as high if not higher than the percentage for mobile passers.

The crazy thing is I am not even a big fan of most of the mobile QBs and I have long stressed the importance of being able to read defenses and make good decisions and throw the ball accurately. But all of this talk about mobile QBs, let's cut the bullshyt, BLACK QBs is sounding so eerily similar to the reasoning many use to support racial profiling and other racist bullshyt. White guys get judged on their own merits and just need the right situation while black guys have to atone for the sins of other black guys and circumstance is irrelevant.

Yeah, I completely agreed with your last post, and I completely agree with this one. As I said before, there are definitely people who are using the "mobile vs pocket" as a cover for their racism. I'm just saying that if you are a "mobile" qb, all the way from pop warner to the pros, you're less likely to be coached on those important qb skills like reading defenses and making good throwing decisions because you can use your mobility as a crutch. Doesn't matter if you're white (Tim Tebow, Manziel) or black. It just so happens that a larger percentage of those athletic qbs are black, but being a good qb has nothing to do with race or mobility. There have been great qbs who are mobile, and there have been great qbs who are black.

Just because racists use the argument to prop up their fukked up point of view doesn't mean the argument isn't sound.

 

[FTBS]

Like I've said in a previous post, if any coach is making personnel decisions (ESPECIALLY at QB) based on racial biases, then that coach needs to be fired

I would hope (although I imagine it's not always the case) that coaches are well-versed enough in the guys they have on their rosters that the best players will play. It's not like coaches do this for fun, they have mouths to feed. I imagine it has happened though, like with VY in Tennessee. Problem is.. he still couldn't play the position even when he went to Philly. So maybe Jeff Fisher had good reason for never being fully sold on him.

This applies to the overwhelming majority of QBs, mobile or pocket, black or white. His issue wasn't mobility, his issue was reading defenses and accuracy along with other stuff mentally and emotionally he had going on. Being a classic drop back passer would not have cured any of that.

Yeah, I completely agreed with your last post, and I completely agree with this one. As I said before, there are definitely people who are using the "mobile vs pocket" as a cover for their racism. I'm just saying that if you are a "mobile" qb, all the way from pop warner to the pros, you're less likely to be coached on those important qb skills like reading defenses and making good throwing decisions because you can use your mobility as a crutch. Doesn't matter if you're white (Tim Tebow, Manziel) or black. It just so happens that a larger percentage of those athletic qbs are black, but being a good qb has nothing to do with race or mobility. There have been great qbs who are mobile, and there have been great qbs who are black.

Just because racists use the argument to prop up their fukked up point of view doesn't mean the argument isn't sound.

That's the point. That's all I have been saying. This also flies in the face of this notion that mobile QBs should be judged based on other mobile QBs and need to prove themselves as a group.

at the last part. That is exactly what it means. People should be judged based upon what they do, not what someone who looks like them did or didn't do.

 

[King Kreole]

This applies to the overwhelming majority of QBs, mobile or pocket, black or white. His issue wasn't mobility, his issue was reading defenses and accuracy along with other stuff mentally and emotionally he had going on. Being a classic drop back passer would not have cured any of that.



That's the point. That's all I have been saying. This also flies in the face of this notion that mobile QBs should be judged based on other mobile QBs and need to prove themselves as a group.

at the last part. That is exactly what it means. People should be judged based upon what they do, not what someone who looks like them did or didn't do.

The argument is that qbs who display great athleticism are more suspect than pocket qbs. Racists will say it's because of the color of the qbs skin. I'm saying it's because they aren't coached on the fundamentals of playing qb because the mobility becomes a crutch. The former does not invalidate the latter.

I completely agree with the points you've been making, I also think it's dumb to judge any qb on his "style" or "type". I don't see how anybody could think less of Steve Young or Donovan McNabb because of Tim Tebow or Terrell Pryor. I also don't see how anybody could think less of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady because of Blaine Gabbert or Brady Quinn. That we should judge the player on his individual merits seems obvious to me.

A shyt qb is a shyt qb. No one except for racists are going to take Blaine Gabbert over Russell Wilson. Some NFL teams have schemes that are more amenable to pocket passers, so they're probably not going to value mobility as highly as teams that have schemes that are more amenable to mobile qbs. Vice-versa.

 

[resurrection]

This applies to the overwhelming majority of QBs, mobile or pocket, black or white. His issue wasn't mobility, his issue was reading defenses and accuracy along with other stuff mentally and emotionally he had going on. Being a classic drop back passer would not have cured any of that.

Yes it does apply to most QBs, it's a really difficult position to play no doubt. And mobility in and of itself has never hurt anyone who had those other skills. No argument there.

But to the bolded portion - I'm not sure this is true (emotional issues aside). When folks like VY, RGIII, Tebow, and Manziel have elite mobility at the QB position, do you really think there is a focus on the development of the finer points of QB'ing that only the best NFL QBs have mastered? Whether it's their own self-motivation or an issue of coaching, I think it is fair to say that if running is working for you and elevating you to new heights your entire life, you may be less likely to try to develop other skills that less athletic QBs are forced to work in if they want to make it. I don't think that's a leap of logic.

That's the point. That's all I have been saying. This also flies in the face of this notion that mobile QBs should be judged based on other mobile QBs and need to prove themselves as a group.

at the last part. That is exactly what it means. People should be judged based upon what they do, not what someone who looks like them did or didn't do.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you here. And I also don't think anybody disagrees that some slow-witted media folks (and sadly some coaches probably too) think this way. But the reality is that you can either play the position at the NFL level or you can't. And if you've achieved fame and glory at all levels of football doing one thing, then are asked to do another to make it as a pro, it's only natural that one would have less confidence in that person than in someone who has played that way forever. Black or white. Can it be overcome? Sure. Are some guys honing all aspects of their game? Sure. But many aren't.

 

[FTBS]

The argument is that qbs who display great athleticism are more suspect than pocket qbs. Racists will say it's because of the color of the qbs skin. I'm saying it's because they aren't coached on the fundamentals of playing qb because the mobility becomes a crutch. The former does not invalidate the latter.

I completely agree with the points you've been making, I also think it's dumb to judge any qb on his "style" or "type". I don't see how anybody could think less of Steve Young or Donovan McNabb because of Tim Tebow or Terrell Pryor. I also don't see how anybody could think less of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady because of Blaine Gabbert or Brady Quinn. That we should judge the player on his individual merits seems obvious to me.

A shyt qb is a shyt qb. No one except for racists are going to take Blaine Gabbert over Russell Wilson. Some NFL teams have schemes that are more amenable to pocket passers, so they're probably not going to value mobility as highly as teams that have schemes that are more amenable to mobile qbs. Vice-versa.

Yes it does apply to most QBs, it's a really difficult position to play no doubt. And mobility in and of itself has never hurt anyone who had those other skills. No argument there.

But to the bolded portion - I'm not sure this is true. When folks like VY, RGIII, Tebow, and Manziel have elite mobility at the QB position, do you really think there is a focus on the development of the finer points of QB'ing that only the best NFL QBs have mastered? Whether it's their own self-motivation or an issue of coaching, I think it is fair to say that if running is working for you and elevating you to new heights your entire life, you may be less likely to try to develop other skills that less athletic QBs are forced to work in if they want to make it. I don't think that's a leap of logic.


I don't think anybody disagrees with you here. And I also don't think anybody disagrees that some slow-witted media folks (and sadly some coaches probably too) think this way. But the reality is that you can either play the position at the NFL level or you can't. And if you've achieved fame and glory at all levels of football doing one thing, then are asked to do another to make it as a pro, it's only natural that one would have less confidence in that person than in someone who has played that way forever. Black or white. Can it be overcome? Sure. Are some guys honing all aspects of their game? Sure. But many aren't.

This isn't limited to mobile QBs though. Some guys wanna maximize their potential, most guys just wanna get by or be good enough. This is true in all sports and all walks of life really. We can't sit here and act like being less athletic automatically means you will work more or develop other skills because there are plenty of other crutches aside from athleticism out there. Having a dad that is the coach can be a crutch. Having a famous last name can be a crutch. Having a big arm can be a crutch. Being bigger and stronger than everybody else your whole life can be a crutch. Having a certain type of offense or certain caliber of players around you can be a crutch. We have seen guys in each category succeed and flame out at the pro level. It all comes down to the individual. There is no logical basis to judge a QB by anything other than what he brings to the table.

 

[iceberg_is_on_fire]

I would be too. Black QBs are excelling at unprecedented levels in college, but not so much in the NFL. In college, where defenses are not as athletic as the NFL then scrambling and using your feet is a lot easier, not so much in the NFL where you have DE and Line Backers with ungodly speed and strength.

Once in NFL black QBs have to learn a whole new way to play from how they have been playing since pop warner. That's difficult as hell. Meanwhile a white QB has been playing the same way since he started playing. So it's an easier transition.

But then again, how many truly elite QBs are there anyway? A handful? Black QBs also have a higher expectation to carry the team the same way they did in college which is not really fair. (Cam, RG3, Young)

Why wouldn't the QBs you've mentioned have higher expectations.

Cam - Heisman/NC
RG3 - Heisman
Young - NC

We aren't supposed to have higher expectations on them. They excelled in college. Some translate, some don't to the NFL. These mufukkas would play martians if they could make the throws and wins. They are about saving their jobs and own asses. Media be damned. They just want to win.