He was 22 years old , durant was 23 . 2nd youngest team in the league.
Prime Iverson or Kevin Durant
- Thread starter Draje
- Start date
No excuses, it didn't stop both Magic and Bird from coming right into the League and wining Championships at that age.
Durant
Iverson's percentages were brutal, he'd shoot his team out of games constantly... Not to say you can't build a championship team around him, but it'd be much more difficult than Durant.
Iverson was amazing, must see TV, and probably in my top 3 favorite players back then, he's overrated because most people didn't look at his field goal attempts every game, just cared about what he put up.
Iverson's percentages were brutal, he'd shoot his team out of games constantly... Not to say you can't build a championship team around him, but it'd be much more difficult than Durant.
Iverson was amazing, must see TV, and probably in my top 3 favorite players back then, he's overrated because most people didn't look at his field goal attempts every game, just cared about what he put up.
Magic played with Kareem
at this stupid ass comparison . Bird played with other legends. Not to mention nba then vs now is totally different . fukk outta here fakkit
Except Durant posted better stats in the playoffs too. Next.
In a much weaker Conference. Next.
AI got to the Finals once, against a horribly weak set of opponents and was shooting something like 35%. That's no impact. You act like having a garbage coach like Brooks and two net negative offensive players like Perkins and Sefalosha led to Durant having the most talented team ever.
I ain't seen this much BS in a long time. You're talking about having playoff success but labeling T-Mac and AI as better than Durant?
Absurd.
Durant scored just as many points on vastly higher TS% and he was doing just as good when Westbrook went down. Either post some stats or numbers substantiating your claim or shut up.
ManBearPig
half man half bearpig
KD already made it out the 2nd round more than Iverson throughout his career. If efficiency doesn't matter then the Pistons wouldn't be garbage with the PG they got.
efficiency is important. Stop acting like CP3 and Curry arent amazing because both arev ery efficient
Again, prove it,. You act like a team of Reggir Jackson, Sefalosha, Durant, Ibaka, and Perkins is done offensively talented team but it's really not.
Durant's efficiency went down because the Grizzlies are an amazingly tough defensive team, played Durant perfectly, and Brooks is one of the worst play calling coaches of all time so they typically have a very stale offense that simply rely on the talent of their two stats to win games.
I'll wait for your stats, videos, etc.
ManBearPig
half man half bearpig
The level of play back then wasn't the greatest. It became more competitive later in the 80's. The Celtics played a 40-42 team in the Final for crying out lout
That was the perfect opportunity to finally prove his elite status though!!!
You want to harp on his scoring prowess during those 11 games in January without Westbrook, but the moment he had an opportunity to take the team on his back, to the next round...he was unable to do it (<---Fact not opinion)....where was the efficiency when he finally had to contend with a defense focused solely on him? We talking about the Grizzlies here, yes they were formidable...but Kevin Durant is Jordan-like, no? The Bulls weren't suppose to beat the Cavs during that playoff series in 89 that went 5 games, the final being in Cleveland, where Jordan killed them with a buzzer beater. If Durant is Jordan-like...where was he???
You making my argument for me, by ridiculing the offensive skills of Reggir Jackson, Sefalosha, Durant, Ibaka, and Perkins (which I agree, they aren't great) but hence my point...Durant's efficiency went down when he finally had a defense to hone in on him (<---Fact not opinion).
In January while Westbrook was out, Durant promised Brooks he wouldn't increase his FGA by much and he would focus on keeping his FG% the same (<---Fact not opinion).
See, one of the results of instant access to information in the social media age, is that some of today's NBA players go into a game with a predetermined set of amount of shots they plan on taking and missing. Rather than just playing within the flow of the game.
Again, games in May are infinitely more important than games in January (<---Fact not opinion). Teams have time to prepare defensive schemes for you, in the month of May and June that's where your money is made. Durant had an opportunity to display this his elite TS% and FG% efficiency against the Grizzlies, and didn't..not because he sucks...he's an All-Timer no doubt about it, but because he didn't have a Westbrook to help shoulder the burden, hence his FG% looking eerily similar to a healthy T-Mac - who NEVER had Westbrook to play with. Without Westbrook, they lose 1-4 to the Grizzlies, with Westbrook they win 4-3 (<--Fact not opinion)...but let you tell it and it seems as if Kevin Durant is all alone....like T-Mac once was.
They didn't have smart-phones when T-Mac was dominating, if they did, perhaps he would have focused on keeping his fg% at a visually appealing number...especially if he immediately checks his phone after the game to see if his average fg% went down.
Oh and I'm gathering my statistics now, it'll be a while though.
Durant hasn't shot below 57% TS in the playoffs since 2010(the 1st playoffs series of his career against the championship Lakers). TMac has never in his entire career shot above .561 TS% in the playoffs.That was the perfect opportunity to finally prove his elite status though!!!
You want to harp on his scoring prowess during those 11 games in January without Westbrook, but the moment he had an opportunity to take the team on his back, to the next round...he was unable to do it (<---Fact not opinion)....where was the efficiency when he finally had to contend with a defense focused solely on him? We talking about the Grizzlies here, yes they were formidable...but Kevin Durant is Jordan-like, no? The Bulls weren't suppose to beat the Cavs during that playoff series in 89 that went 5 games, the final being in Cleveland, where Jordan killed them with a buzzer beater. If Durant is Jordan-like...where was he???
You making my argument for me, by ridiculing the offensive skills of Reggir Jackson, Sefalosha, Durant, Ibaka, and Perkins (which I agree, they aren't great) but hence my point...Durant's efficiency went down when he finally had a defense to hone in on him (<---Fact not opinion).
In January while Westbrook was out, Durant promised Brooks he wouldn't increase his FGA by much and he would focus on keeping his FG% the same (<---Fact not opinion).
See, one of the results of instant access to information in the social media age, is that some of today's NBA players go into a game with a predetermined set of amount of shots they plan on taking and missing. Rather than just playing within the flow of the game.
Again, games in May are infinitely more important than games in January (<---Fact not opinion). Teams have time to prepare defensive schemes for you, in the month of May and June that's where your money is made. Durant had an opportunity to display this his elite TS% and FG% efficiency against the Grizzlies, and didn't..not because he sucks...he's an All-Timer no doubt about it, but because he didn't have a Westbrook to help shoulder the burden, hence his FG% looking eerily similar to a healthy T-Mac - who NEVER had Westbrook to play with. Without Westbrook, they lose 1-4 to the Grizzlies, with Westbrook they win 4-3 (<--Fact not opinion)...but let you tell it and it seems as if Kevin Durant is all alone....like T-Mac once was.
They didn't have smart-phones when T-Mac was dominating, if they did, perhaps he would have focused on keeping his fg% at a visually appealing number...especially if he immediately checks his phone after the game to see if his average fg% went down.
Oh and I'm gathering my statistics now, it'll be a while though.
In the 2012 playoffs Durant shot .632 TS%. In the Finals Durant averaged 31PPG on .650 TS%. Durant's 2012 playoffs shyts on anything Tmac EVER did in the playoffs.
Again, a player's (specifically a leader of any given team)TS% is directly affected by the quality of teammates he's surrounded by....I'm addressing posters' arguments in here, but it seems to me you guys want to gloss over the type of players Durant played with compared to the players T-Mac played with during his remarkable 4-5 year stretch. Again, those 5 years T-Mac was considered elite showed enough to me, that had he stayed healthy (and was surrounded by another legitimate monster all-star, in the caliber of a Westbrook) he would be in the conversation.
"The first thing to note is that TS% is an “artificial” shooting percentage. It measures the amount of points scored per field goal attempt (FGA) or trip to the line. The points are multiplied by 100 and FGA are multiplied by two to match the conventions of FG% (FG% = FG*100/FGA). Threes are inherently accounted for by the fact that they net an additional point while still adding a single attempt to the denominator. Free throw attempts (FTA) are roughly halved because the standard two-shot trip to the line is treated as the equivalent of an attempted field goal (more on this soon). TS% is essentially effective field goal percentage (eFG%), which adjusts FG% to account for threes being worth three points, but now free throws, the black sheep of the scoring family, are invited to the party. It all seems to make a lot of sense.
As you might expect, it’s those pesky free throw pariahs that complicate things. Their inclusion is the formula’s greatest strength; it’s what shows us that Dwight Howard (eFG: 59%, TS: 60%) is not a more efficient scorer than Kevin Durant (eFG: 56%, TS: 64%). But it’s the formula’s lone oddity – that .44 multiplier – which proves to be its biggest flaw. It would be nice and clean if FTA could simply be halved and added to shot attempts, but thanks to and-ones, shooting fouls on missed three-pointers, and technical and flagrant fouls, not every pair of free throws on a player’s stat line represents a single possession being put on the line. The creators of TS% thus used league-wide averages to estimate that 12% of all FTA should not count towards players free throw total.
This is where it gets messy. The 12% estimation is applied to every player in NBA history despite the vast differences in play-style and the significant changes in the NBA’s rule book. Three-pointers weren’t adopted by the NBA until 1979 and were a very small part of the game for many years after. The rules regarding flagrants and techs have also changed numerous times. In a given year, the scoring habits of different players vary greatly. Last year, LeBron James was approximately twenty times more likely to go to the line for an and-one on a given field goal than Steve Novak, who was fouled more often on three point attempts than Dwight Howard (shocking, I know). Yet the number always stays constant. That breeds inaccuracy.
Then there’s the admittedly small issue of the formula’s treatment of techs. These trips to the line are removed from the equation’s denominator because a team does not lose possession after a technical free throw is taken. As a result, they are treated as free points. This is bullshyt. They should either be removed from both the numerator and denominator – as no possession is at stake – or treated as the wager they are. When a player steps up to take one of these shots, he does so knowing that another player could just as easily take them and make them at a very good rate. This of course assumes the team is not devoid of reliable free throw shooters (I’m looking at you, Detroit). If a player makes all his techs, he helps his team. If he shoots 60%, he almost invariably hurts his team. If anything, these misses should be treated more severely than the average miss in a two-shot scenario. Regardless, by handling techs this way, TS% overvalues free throws, especially for the majority of players who never shoot them and have FTA removed from their denominator for absolutely no reason.
So far, all these potential inaccuracies haven’t amounted to all that much. We’re looking at differences of maybe one or two percentage points. The real problem with the treatment of free throws in TS% stems from the assumption that missing two free throws on a standard trip to the line is equivalent to a missed shot. This is fundamentally flawed logic because of the simple fact that an offense is much more likely to retain possession after a missed field goal than after a missed free throw. Exact numbers are hard to come by, but this article from 2004 shows that offenses rebounded just 13.9% of missed free throws, compared to 29% of missed field goals. This suggests that missed field goals are more than twice as likely to stay with the offense. That’s what people in the stats biz call “a big fukkin’ deal”. Once again, free throws are being overvalued, but in this case quite drastically.
Of course, there are a couple potential caveats here. It’s possible that missed field goals not rebounded by the offense typically result in more favorable positioning for the opposing team. It also seems likely that an offensive rebound after a free throw might be more likely to result in points for the offense than your average rebound after a missed shot. These factors may mitigate the discrepancy in offensive rebounds and are worth considering, but years of watching the NBA tell me that they aren’t nearly enough to erase it. But hey, you can be your own judge.
So what’s the solution here? We fans lack the resources to seamlessly integrate and-ones, three-shot fouls and flagrants into the equation. I also don’t expect anyone to start adjusting that .44 to account for the fact that free throws are harder for the offense to rebound (but damn it, you should try). The point here is awareness. Awareness that TS% is an imperfect estimation that always assumes the average when it comes to free throws. Any time you’re dealing with an exceptional player – especially one who shoots an inordinate amount of and-ones – there is likely going to be a discrepancy. And most importantly, be aware that TS% fundamentally understates the negative effect of missed free throws and overstates that of missed field goals; most glaringly, those close to the basket, which have the highest chance of being rebounded by the offense and producing more points.
Until we have a more accurate and logical measure of scoring efficiency, true shooting percentage will continue to occupy an important place in the wild world of basketball statistics. But just remember that “true” can be a relative term."
"In T-Mac’s greatest season, he averaged 32.1 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 5.5 assists. Oh, and he had a 30+ PER, something only 7 guys have done in history. Durant’s best season reads as: 32 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 5.5 assists. Both of these seasons can only be described as bonkers. Neither one of these guys could be guarded. But the guy, who could guard other players much better, was T-Mac. McGrady has been described as a Scottie Pippen-esque defender, able to guard four positions and the other team’s best player. Durant is an above average defender, but he never guards the other team’s best player, let alone four positions. I give Durant the edge on scoring, Tracy defense, Durant rebounding, and Tracy playmaking."
Your argument sucks. You're just assuming that T-Mac is gonna gel with any other player and his efficiency would go up. We don't know that.
T-Mac never put on any performance in the playoffs and almost never made it out of the 2nd round in his prime, even when he was playing in the a East.
Durant did just fine without Westbrook and was more efficient without him and pretty much averaged 30 PPG for almost the entire run and was putting up Jordan-esque numbers. Westbrook is one of the most ball dominant players in the league so Durant's numbers are always gonna suffer even if he's great but they're still better than anything T-Mac has done.
Hell, even against the Grizzlies, when Westbrook went out, Durant didn't play bad. It was the fact that Ibaka and Sefalosha couldn't space the floor plus Perkins is so inept offensively that Gasol can pretty much forget he exists.
The Grizzlies, with Gasol healthy, are probably the best defensive team in the league. Conley, Allen, Gasol, and Prince are all great with Conley and Allen probably being the best defensive backcourt in the league.
Put Durant with any decent playmaker at PG and I'm sure his offensive game barely suffers. Dragic, Little Isaiah, Bledsoe, Conley, Lawson, etc.
Durant is on a different tier than T-Mac when it comes to scoring. Nothing has shown that Durant would take a TS% drop off of almost 8% (Massive) without Westbrook and when he went without him, he actually became more efficient through the regular season.
I wonder how Durant would do against the weak ass East in the early 00s?