Remember all those people that thought Peyton Manning was better than Tom Brady??

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
32,238
Reputation
5,482
Daps
73,298
I used to be on of those guys saying Manning was better. Now I have no choice but to acknowledge its too close to call. They are pretty much the same guy only difference is Brady has been more fortunate.

I have never seen Bradys kicker miss the big kick. Happened to Peyton twice. Never seen toms D choke like peytons has in his last two playoff games. That last pick was most certainly on Peyton as was the SB pick 6 but contrary to popular myth Tom has his share of similar fukkups. The fact that the cb dropped it or fumbled or nikkas just wanna overlook it doesnt change the fact that he fukked up in the clutch.
No, deep down you always wanted to say Peyton is better, but now it's reached a point where you can't so you want to call it too close to call.

Brady's kicker never missed the big kick...really. That's because Bellicheck didn't even let the kicker kick against the Giants because he had no faith in him. Vinatieri missed in the SB, but because he made it later it was atoned for. That's the difference, even with the miss, Brady's team wasn't even in a losing position.

You have never seem Tom's D choke, did you forget that flu-ridden Patriots squad that allowed Peyton to even get to his first SB...the squad that allowed over 30 in the SECOND HALF.

The same Patriots defense that blew the lead in every SB but the Eagles game.

Brady has nowhere near similar fukk ups besides that game against Denver. I'll say this one last time, Peyton is criticized because he has these ridiculous offenses and then in the places they wilt as much as his defense. INT against the Ravens aside last year, Brady led a team with the SECOND WORST PASS DEFENSE IN NFL HISTORY, to the Superbowl. That is exactly the excuse that was always made for Peyton, but he wasn't losing shoot outs, his offense was doing nothing and his team's defense was being put in worse positions as well. He wasn't controlling the ball, putting up numbers and forcing the other team to catch up the way Manning apologists would have you believe. He was coming up shorter than his defense did half the time.

In 1999, his defense held the Titans to 19 points, Peyton's O only got 16.

In 2000, lost to division rival Miami, while blowing a 14 point first half lead by doing nothing but getting a FG in the second half, Mike V. kicked a 50 yarder and 2 other FGs. His defense picked off Jay Fielder 3 TIMES. Peyton kept putting them back out there and slowly and surely Lamar eventually rushed them to death.

In 2002, lost 41-0. That entire team was terrible.

In 2003, he threw 4 INTs vs. the Patriots and got shut out in the first half. His defense was allowing 21 PPG that year, the Pats had 24. His offense scored 14. Brady had the same amount of passing yards as him with 10 less attempts. Peyton threw an INT on his first drive at the Patriots FIVE yard line. His defense held the Pats to a FG after that and then Peyton throws an INT on the very next drive...I mean stop.

In 2004, against the Pats his defense held the Pats to two FGs on the first two drives. Then stopped them when the Colts fumbled at the Pats 41 yard line. Which allowed the drive that set up the FG to make it 6-3 at the half. Opening drive, the Pats go 3 and out and the offense that had average 32 PPG in the regular season does nothing. The next drive the Pats finally run it down Indy's throat and Brady throws a TD pass. The Colts don't do anything again and Brady and Dillon drive down again and Brady runs the TD in. Basically, the type of tough and gutsy drive that the Colts offense couldn't get.


THAT is where the rep was built. Brady sans that Jets game, has never had a dominant offense and then gone into the playoffs and done NOTHING with it even while it's at 100%. I'm more sympathetic to Peyton for the 05 Steelers lost, etc.
 

Born2BKing

Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
87,003
Reputation
16,410
Daps
347,447
Not to deviate from the topic too much but I have a question that's twofold....how come the success of black QB's recently is attributed to the "gimmick" read option offense, yet everyone hesitate to call NE's offense a gimmick? Is it racist to lump all the praise on Brady while making it a point to give the read option just as much praise for the young black QB's instead of just giving them all the praise, ala the way they do Brady?

I'm not afraid to call Brady's offense a gimmicky system. :smugfavre:
 

yseJ

Empire strikes back
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
47,919
Reputation
2,969
Daps
70,920
Reppin
The Yay
INT against the Ravens aside last year, Brady led a team with the SECOND WORST PASS DEFENSE IN NFL HISTORY, to the Superbowl. .

Ill have to nitpick and say lee evans and billy cundiff aided him quite a lot cuz if they do their job well ravens make it to the SB. of course if an if was a spliff... :manny: but still
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
32,238
Reputation
5,482
Daps
73,298
Ill have to nitpick and say lee evans and billy cundiff aided him quite a lot cuz if they do their job well ravens make it to the SB. of course if an if was a spliff... :manny: but still

How do you figure that if Cundiff makes the FG that the Patriots would lose in overtime...

If you get into that if game then you know what that leads to.
 

yseJ

Empire strikes back
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
47,919
Reputation
2,969
Daps
70,920
Reppin
The Yay
How do you figure that if Cundiff makes the FG that the Patriots would lose in overtime...

If you get into that if game then you know what that leads to.
right, but Im just saying...that win of yours last year was one of the luckiest breaks Ive seen a team get in the last several years, on two consecutive plays nonetheless iirc. it is what is tho...so yea u prolly right

damn I really needed to get out of this thread tho....but peytons one and done this year definitely shattered those peyton stanleys argument. doesnt help that this year his D was better than almost any colts D hes had before
 

Listen

Tell me moar
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
8,693
Reputation
1,487
Daps
22,916
Reppin
A few Floors Down from the Daily Grind
Just real quick....

Peyton has not been the slouch some of my fellow Pat's fans have made him out to be and the line isn't so clear cut to me.

That being said, I still think the facts say Brady is better now.

Lets start at where Spygate broke, and go from there so the haters can know where not talking about 'cheating' years. :snoop:

Since 2007:

Brady: 69 wins, 19 losses - 78% win percentage
Manning: 65 wins, 23 losses - 74% win percentage

That's right, until Brady plays on Sunday, these two have played the exact same amount (88) of Football games since 2007 and their teams records are that close during that time.

Let's compare their stats during those regular season games by adding all the stats up and averaging them out of 16 games:

Brady 'Average' Season:
66%, 4,554, 37 TD’s, 9 INT’s, 105.7 QB.
Manning 'Average' Season: 67%, 4,386, 32 TD's, 14 INT's, 98.1 QB.

Also very close, though Brady averaged better stats in all categories except completion %, where he averaged 1 point less.


Lets look at play off records since 2007:

Brady - (9 Games) 5 Wins, 4 Losses. 4QC/GWD = 1
Manning - (7 Games) 2 Wins, 5 losses. 4QC/GWD = 0

Now lets dig into those loses a bit, just for comparison's sake:

Brady's 4 losses:

2007 - Giants Super Bowl: 60%/266/1/0/82.5
Drove his team for a lead taking TD with 2:45 left, Defense gave up game winner.
2009 - Ravens Wildcard: 54%/154/2/3/49.1
Ugly playoff game from the entire Patriots team, including Brady.
2010 - Jets Divisional: 64%/299/2/1/89.0
Down 14-3, got them a TD and a 2 point at the end of the 3rd, Defense promptly game up Jets TD in 2 minutes.
2011 - Giants Super Bowl: 66%/276/2/1/91.1
Up by 2 with 4:06 left in the game, Wes Welker drops a pass, Defense gives up TD with 1 minute left. Can’t get TD before time expires.

Throw out the Ravens game, which was a shellacking and a debacle, and the Defense cost the Patriots the win in all 3 of those loses.

In the two other games where he threw an interception, neither cost his teams any points.

Peyton's 5 losses:

2007 - San Diego: 69%/402/3/2/97.7
Had 2 drives with under 5 minutes to play to come back and win: 6/14, 64 yards, no points.
2008 - San Diego: 60%/310/1/0/90.4
Only had 24 seconds and the ball on his own 19 at end of regulation, never saw the ball in overtime.
2009 - New Orleans Super Bowl: 69%/333/1/1/88.5
Threw a pick 6 with 3:24 left in the game to seal their loss.
2010 - Jets: 69%/225/1/0/108.7
Drove his team for a lead taking FG with :57 left to play before Jets did the same to win.
2012 - Ravens: 65%/290/3/2/88.3
Drove his team for a lead taking TD with 7:18 left to play in regulation before Joe Flacco miracle heave/ threw pic in Overtime to seal their loss.

Peyton's stats in their loses look better than Brady's and he hasn't had the huge stinker that Brady did in 2009. He also had one loss which he could blame on his D.

However, he's had 2 of his 5 playoff loses where his INT late in the game cost his team the team points, and ultimately, victory.


So while it's obviously close, since Spygate, Brady has more regular season wins, better regular season stats, more post season wins and didn't cost his teams as many games in the playoffs.


Well+that+did+not+work_24cf4b_4359909.gif
 

No1

Retired.
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
32,238
Reputation
5,482
Daps
73,298
Just real quick....

Peyton has not been the slouch some of my fellow Pat's fans have made him out to be and the line isn't so clear cut to me.

That being said, I still think the facts say Brady is better now.

Lets start at where Spygate broke, and go from there so the haters can know where not talking about 'cheating' years. :snoop:

Since 2007:

Brady: 69 wins, 19 losses - 78% win percentage
Manning: 65 wins, 23 losses - 74% win percentage

That's right, until Brady plays on Sunday, these two have played the exact same amount (88) of Football games since 2007 and their teams records are that close during that time.

Let's compare their stats during those regular season games by adding all the stats up and averaging them out of 16 games:

Brady 'Average' Season:
66%, 4,554, 37 TD’s, 9 INT’s, 105.7 QB.
Manning 'Average' Season: 67%, 4,386, 32 TD's, 14 INT's, 98.1 QB.

Also very close, though Brady averaged better stats in all categories except completion %, where he averaged 1 point less.


Lets look at play off records since 2007:

Brady - (9 Games) 5 Wins, 4 Losses. 4QC/GWD = 1
Manning - (7 Games) 2 Wins, 5 losses. 4QC/GWD = 0

Now lets dig into those loses a bit, just for comparison's sake:

Brady's 4 losses:

2007 - Giants Super Bowl: 60%/266/1/0/82.5
Drove his team for a lead taking TD with 2:45 left, Defense gave up game winner.
2009 - Ravens Wildcard: 54%/154/2/3/49.1
Ugly playoff game from the entire Patriots team, including Brady.
2010 - Jets Divisional: 64%/299/2/1/89.0
Down 14-3, got them a TD and a 2 point at the end of the 3rd, Defense promptly game up Jets TD in 2 minutes.
2011 - Giants Super Bowl: 66%/276/2/1/91.1
Up by 2 with 4:06 left in the game, Wes Welker drops a pass, Defense gives up TD with 1 minute left. Can’t get TD before time expires.

Throw out the Ravens game, which was a shellacking and a debacle, and the Defense cost the Patriots the win in all 3 of those loses.

In the two other games where he threw an interception, neither cost his teams any points.

Peyton's 5 losses:

2007 - San Diego: 69%/402/3/2/97.7
Had 2 drives with under 5 minutes to play to come back and win: 6/14, 64 yards, no points.
2008 - San Diego: 60%/310/1/0/90.4
Only had 24 seconds and the ball on his own 19 at end of regulation, never saw the ball in overtime.
2009 - New Orleans Super Bowl: 69%/333/1/1/88.5
Threw a pick 6 with 3:24 left in the game to seal their loss.
2010 - Jets: 69%/225/1/0/108.7
Drove his team for a lead taking FG with :57 left to play before Jets did the same to win.
2012 - Ravens: 65%/290/3/2/88.3
Drove his team for a lead taking TD with 7:18 left to play in regulation before Joe Flacco miracle heave/ threw pic in Overtime to seal their loss.

Peyton's stats in their loses look better than Brady's and he hasn't had the huge stinker that Brady did in 2009. He also had one loss which he could blame on his D.

However, he's had 2 of his 5 playoff loses where his INT late in the game cost his team the team points, and ultimately, victory.


So while it's obviously close, since Spygate, Brady has more regular season wins, better regular season stats, more post season wins and didn't cost his teams as many games in the playoffs.


Well+that+did+not+work_24cf4b_4359909.gif

I don't see how Peyton's stats look better if we dig deep into the context of all those games and situations. But that's neither here nor there. In 2009, no QB would win that game in that situation. None in history. That is the worst game I've ever seen Brady play, but there was no way we were going to win that game.
 

FTBS

Superstar
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
22,031
Reputation
4,244
Daps
61,231
Reppin
NULL
No, deep down you always wanted to say Peyton is better, but now it's reached a point where you can't so you want to call it too close to call.

Brady's kicker never missed the big kick...really. That's because Bellicheck didn't even let the kicker kick against the Giants because he had no faith in him. Vinatieri missed in the SB, but because he made it later it was atoned for. That's the difference, even with the miss, Brady's team wasn't even in a losing position.

You have never seem Tom's D choke, did you forget that flu-ridden Patriots squad that allowed Peyton to even get to his first SB...the squad that allowed over 30 in the SECOND HALF.

The same Patriots defense that blew the lead in every SB but the Eagles game.

Brady has nowhere near similar fukk ups besides that game against Denver. I'll say this one last time, Peyton is criticized because he has these ridiculous offenses and then in the places they wilt as much as his defense. INT against the Ravens aside last year, Brady led a team with the SECOND WORST PASS DEFENSE IN NFL HISTORY, to the Superbowl. That is exactly the excuse that was always made for Peyton, but he wasn't losing shoot outs, his offense was doing nothing and his team's defense was being put in worse positions as well. He wasn't controlling the ball, putting up numbers and forcing the other team to catch up the way Manning apologists would have you believe. He was coming up shorter than his defense did half the time.

In 1999, his defense held the Titans to 19 points, Peyton's O only got 16.

In 2000, lost to division rival Miami, while blowing a 14 point first half lead by doing nothing but getting a FG in the second half, Mike V. kicked a 50 yarder and 2 other FGs. His defense picked off Jay Fielder 3 TIMES. Peyton kept putting them back out there and slowly and surely Lamar eventually rushed them to death.

In 2002, lost 41-0. That entire team was terrible.

In 2003, he threw 4 INTs vs. the Patriots and got shut out in the first half. His defense was allowing 21 PPG that year, the Pats had 24. His offense scored 14. Brady had the same amount of passing yards as him with 10 less attempts. Peyton threw an INT on his first drive at the Patriots FIVE yard line. His defense held the Pats to a FG after that and then Peyton throws an INT on the very next drive...I mean stop.

In 2004, against the Pats his defense held the Pats to two FGs on the first two drives. Then stopped them when the Colts fumbled at the Pats 41 yard line. Which allowed the drive that set up the FG to make it 6-3 at the half. Opening drive, the Pats go 3 and out and the offense that had average 32 PPG in the regular season does nothing. The next drive the Pats finally run it down Indy's throat and Brady throws a TD pass. The Colts don't do anything again and Brady and Dillon drive down again and Brady runs the TD in. Basically, the type of tough and gutsy drive that the Colts offense couldn't get.


THAT is where the rep was built. Brady sans that Jets game, has never had a dominant offense and then gone into the playoffs and done NOTHING with it even while it's at 100%. I'm more sympathetic to Peyton for the 05 Steelers lost, etc.


Nothin' deep down my friend, I call it how I see it. When I felt Peyton was better I said so. When Thomas proved me wrong I acknowledged it.

I never said Peyton didn't fukk up and didn't deserve blame. As far as 2000 goes are you really gonna act like Peyton didn't put Vanderjagt in position for 37 yd kick for the win at the end that the most accurate kicker ever missed? :what: You really gonna just overlook Lamar fukking Smith running for 200 yds including the winning score in OT? :wtf:. That is one game that should never be mentioned on shyt on Peyton list.

I say that they are equal because I am not convinced that Brady would have done any better against the Titans or the Jetss or his own Pats D and his recent struggles with more potent offenses in the playoffs support my stance. How do you explain the Pats most recent two SBs being the two lowest scoring SBs when thier offense has been top 3 in scoring each time?

They put up 14 pts with the greatest scoring offense ever in 08. Meanwhile each of the Giants previous 3 opponents scored as many or more points. If that was Peyton it would be a choke but since it's Brady every plea in the book gets copped. :scusthov: When Brady has been put in similar positions to Peyton, with similar or even better weapons, and similar responsiblity and pressue he has performed similarly.

It's not about shytting on Brady or :cape: for Manning for me, it's about calling it how it is. Brady has made more than his share of fukkups with talent around him but because he was in a better situation starting out, or got bailed out that shyt doesn't count. :rudy: I don't judge individual by team accomplishments, I go purely by how they play. Brady has not shown me anything in big moments that Peyton hasn't. So I dont' give a fukk if he makes and wins 10 SBs until he does show me something more than Peyton as an individual it's a tie IMO.
 

Jplaya2023

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
44,580
Reputation
-782
Daps
92,857
True, but Brady is the QB in the 3rd highest scoring offense ever. He has also had a great year

yup, no argument here

i thought the dome QB argument would have ended with how manning played this year
 

yseJ

Empire strikes back
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
47,919
Reputation
2,969
Daps
70,920
Reppin
The Yay
He argubly had the best year of his career this year in denver.
:mindblown:

so with his stats in this inflated era passing clearly inferior to his stats,in, say, 2004....and his team going 2-3 against teams with winning record in the reg. season...and then bounced in the first game in offs...

how is this his best year in the career ? and please dont say anything about the neck, its irrelevant when you evaluate pure performance.
 
Top