So in essence, he was the 1st Mugabe.....oh wait.
Robert Mugabe may force black farmers to pay back white landowners! Hold this L, Zimbabwe!
- Thread starter The Odum of Ala Igbo
- Start date
So in essence, he was the 1st Mugabe.....oh wait.
Lobengula was tricked by Rhodes because he though he was signing mining and not agricultural concessions. After that realization he sent representatives to the UK and also fought the British. The term Shona describes a loose amalgamation of languages and dialects. There certainly wasn't a Shona unified group or kingdom. Kore Kore and Manyika are very different, in fact if you removed standard Shona which is essentially Zezuru based dialect you would understand the stark differences. I have seen Ndau also being classified as Shona even though they group themselves differently. If we are to use broad classification then we can end up taking Kalanga's and Chewa as part of Shona people and even link Venda's given their history.
The link between Ndebele and Zulus is mostly linguistic, a lot of groups were absorbed by Mzilikazi from Sothos, Tswanas and Karangas. If we are to use such links then anyone from Shangaan and the Ngoni in Tanzania and Zambia were Zwangendaba went are Zulus. Politically, the creation of Zimbabwe was a product of it's era, if it wasn't done through concessions it would have been colonized by force. It's not like Jameson and Rudd would have just gone back to Rhodes and told them that Lobengula refused to sign so we are not going to open a colony. The Portuguese, Boers and English were already there, the Berlin conference had taken place. Blaming Lobengula for the colonization ignores a wider context, it was useful to engender tribalism in Zimbabwe in the early 80s. What's ironic about Gukurahundi is that Mugabe used the pretext of white tourists being murdered by ZAPU to start going after them. ZANU was philosophically close to China and Mugabe wanted a one party state system. Every political challenger like Ndabaningi Sithole, Joice Mujuru, Tsvangirai, has been accused of treason.
The link between Ndebele and Zulus is mostly linguistic, a lot of groups were absorbed by Mzilikazi from Sothos, Tswanas and Karangas. If we are to use such links then anyone from Shangaan and the Ngoni in Tanzania and Zambia were Zwangendaba went are Zulus. Politically, the creation of Zimbabwe was a product of it's era, if it wasn't done through concessions it would have been colonized by force. It's not like Jameson and Rudd would have just gone back to Rhodes and told them that Lobengula refused to sign so we are not going to open a colony. The Portuguese, Boers and English were already there, the Berlin conference had taken place. Blaming Lobengula for the colonization ignores a wider context, it was useful to engender tribalism in Zimbabwe in the early 80s. What's ironic about Gukurahundi is that Mugabe used the pretext of white tourists being murdered by ZAPU to start going after them. ZANU was philosophically close to China and Mugabe wanted a one party state system. Every political challenger like Ndabaningi Sithole, Joice Mujuru, Tsvangirai, has been accused of treason.
Isaiah Bradley
Banned
Nothing you just posted explains why Mugabe destroyed most of his export economy, pursued a monetary policy which led to hyperinflation in addition to violent political crackdowns ranging from starving the Ndebele in the early 1980's to torturing dissidents in the 2000s. Or the new hypocrisy which is the subject matter of this thread. Try again.
Also, what is 'economical'. I know I am dealing with someone who doesn't understand macro or microeconomics and how to build a successful economy. Why is it that Asian countries like Vietnam or Singapore made free-market reforms (making their countries stronger vis a vis European countries) but Africa's authoritarian pseudo-Marxists don't?
lol. You're clearly on an ego stroking campaign so you could continue arguing because you are trying to skew the focus of my point . Which was directly challenging your admitted bias and intentional lack of perspective in applying critical thinking to Zimbabwe's dilemma and your poor attempt at trying to excuse SA choice of not addressing their problem of white minority political influence and wealth, inorder to shyt on Mugabe's decision to address it
You give Zimbabwe, SA, Haiti and Cuba the economic and technical assistance, investment, debt forgiveness, currency reform to address inflation and industry protection received by both Israel(after WW2) and Germany (pre Cold War), then you'll see countries with thriving economies
It takes a self-serving lame to suggest Mugabe destroyed his export economy, while ignoring his calls for all African nations to curtail their exports to encourage their own industrialization, more evidence of his dedication to tackling white supremacy
It takes a self-serving lame to question his monetary policy, while not mentioning the implementation of crippling economic sanctions, limited US aid, and debt brought about by his attempt to not depend on Western influence
More proofs of your ego tripping and desire to argue just for the sake of arguing. Now you want to shift the discussion by questioning my understanding of easy generic economic concepts and Vietnam. Which doesn't add nothing to the discussion. smh
The Odum of Ala Igbo
Hail Biafra!
"It takes a self-serving lame to suggest Mugabe destroyed his export economy, while ignoring his calls for all African nations to curtail their exports to encourage their own industrialization, more evidence of his dedication to tackling white supremacy" - Curtailing exports doesn't encourage industrialization. Most African countries don't have consumer markets large enough to undergo that process. Even China had to have export-oriented industrialization in order to become powerful. You clearly know nothing about economics. Idiot.
"It takes a self-serving lame to question his monetary policy, while not mentioning the implementation of crippling economic sanctions, limited US aid, and debt brought about by his attempt to not depend on Western influence" - His regime (himself, his evil wife and party cadres), not Zimbabwe, were on the receiving end of sanctions. IMF/World Bank loans became limited in the 2000's because of his regime's inability to pay them back, especially after his disastrous foray in the Congo.
Isaiah Bradley
Banned
smh. Smart dumb nikka. Depending on foreign assistance to process your raw materials, so you could have limited access to their market and limited negotiation strength cause you're dependent on them VERSUS processing your own raw materials, you negotiate at a position of strength. China takes advantage of African nations' inability to process their raw materials, so they ridiculous amounts of discounted resources and access to precious land to further complement their manufacturing industry"It takes a self-serving lame to suggest Mugabe destroyed his export economy, while ignoring his calls for all African nations to curtail their exports to encourage their own industrialization, more evidence of his dedication to tackling white supremacy" - Curtailing exports doesn't encourage industrialization. Most African countries don't have consumer markets large enough to undergo that process. Even China had to have export-oriented industrialization in order to become powerful. You clearly know nothing about economics. Idiot.
More smart dumb nikka gibberish. "Individual sanctions" is basically a label used by Western powers to implicitly encourage NGOs in Zimbabwe to either completely withdraw and/or redirect their efforts, resources, and funding to mostly humanitarian aids, which is a short term, that does not directly address the long term economical development. No foreign country will secure funding for their private or public organization to assist another country's government that is perceived as "bad," which is exactly what has occurred with Mugabe by the "individual sanctions""It takes a self-serving lame to question his monetary policy, while not mentioning the implementation of crippling economic sanctions, limited US aid, and debt brought about by his attempt to not depend on Western influence" - His regime (himself, his evil wife and party cadres), not Zimbabwe, were on the receiving end of sanctions. IMF/World Bank loans became limited in the 2000's because of his regime's inability to pay them back, especially after his disastrous foray in the Congo.
Typical smart dumb nikka behaviour, with self-serving intentions, will cherry pick what to address. How about this part fakkit?
The Odum of Ala Igbo
Hail Biafra!
You clearly don't understand economics. The type of economic development you advocate for (autarky) is only a rung below from the Juche Idea of North Korea. Why do you fix a model of economic development which encourages no FDI or development of manufacturing as what occurred in East Asian countries? You're attempting the same model of economic development which doomed African countries in the 1980's which led to SAPs. Sad. Very sad. This is why Africa can't develop. Because you expect a different result from the same model.
None of your nonsense addresses how right I am in pointing out that the sanctions were placed against members of a authoritarian regime which you are still defending despite evidence of ethnic massacres, massive corruption and brutal intimidation of democratic forces. Again, very sad.
I am quite glad you will never have any significant influence outside of your mother's basement. Me and other policy makers will put Marxist wannabe dictators like you into the dustbin of history.
DrBanneker
Space is the Place
You clearly don't understand economics. The type of economic development you advocate for (autarky) is only a rung below from the Juche Idea of North Korea. Why do you fix a model of economic development which encourages no FDI or development of manufacturing as what occurred in East Asian countries? You're attempting the same model of economic development which doomed African countries in the 1980's which led to SAPs. Sad. Very sad. This is why Africa can't develop. Because you expect a different result from the same model.
None of your nonsense addresses how right I am in pointing out that the sanctions were placed against members of a authoritarian regime which you are still defending despite evidence of ethnic massacres, massive corruption and brutal intimidation of democratic forces. Again, very sad.
I am quite glad you will never have any significant influence outside of your mother's basement. Me and other policy makers will put Marxist wannabe dictators like you into the dustbin of history.
@MansaMusa though my stance is more closely aligned with yours, developing value added processing of raw materials isn't autarky, it's exactly what Asia did. Put up tariffs against industrial goods, finance several local companies to do value added process and manufacturing, but then let them ruthlessly fight it out (not become pets of the state) to promote competition and market based success. Africa will get nowhere if we let others process the raw materials and make them into finished goods. That comparative advantage free trade crap is something everyone talks about but no one ever does. Japan and South Korea ruthlessly engaged in promotion of steel, ship building, and electronics (against the advice of the World Bank/IMF). Otherwise they would be exporting rice and kimchee as their 'comparative' advantage.
Japan and South Korea had a different economic history than most African countries. There is a path dependency to their development that does not exist for many African countries. The business groups like Toyota, Samsung etc had a long history and were among the initial factor conditions that helped them succeed, not to mention that there was more investment in human capital development after some opening up to more developed countries' technology and knowledge. The additional value added from a lot of raw materials many African countries have is not conducive to the type of development East Asia achieved. The East Asians also combined domestic industry protection with an export orientation, in fact you could say it was competing for Western consumers that helped them develop. Japan also invested heavily in the surrounding countries, I think Hyundai got its start contracting for Mitsibushi. Tariff protection won't help if the human capital and physical capital has been wasted away in the manner that African countries did in the 80s and 90s.
The Odum of Ala Igbo
Hail Biafra!
This is fair. My comment was geared towards his 'curtailing of exports' line. It takes time to develop a value chain. You can't just do it by curtailing exports or imports. As Mugabe would want. The commentor also didn't believe in export oriented imdustrialization which is a big no-no if you're following the East Asian model.
See: economic history of Nigeria from 1981 onwards
Isaiah Bradley
Banned
Actually, I'm in my parents' finished attic, fyiYou clearly don't understand economics. The type of economic development you advocate for (autarky) is only a rung below from the Juche Idea of North Korea. Why do you fix a model of economic development which encourages no FDI or development of manufacturing as what occurred in East Asian countries? You're attempting the same model of economic development which doomed African countries in the 1980's which led to SAPs. Sad. Very sad. This is why Africa can't develop. Because you expect a different result from the same model.
None of your nonsense addresses how right I am in pointing out that the sanctions were placed against members of a authoritarian regime which you are still defending despite evidence of ethnic massacres, massive corruption and brutal intimidation of democratic forces. Again, very sad.
I am quite glad you will never have any significant influence outside of your mother's basement. Me and other policy makers will put Marxist wannabe dictators like you into the dustbin of history.
smh. This post reeks of desperation and it's yet another example of your intellectual dishonesty. You clearly have no affinity to spreading truth and you lack intellectual perseverance when you attempt to relate an impractical economic concept, whose relevance in today's global economy is akin to that of the offspring of the centaur and a unicorn, to that of a plausible and common means of stimulating a country's economy and increasing its workforce
To mention North Korea's economy, without mentioning China and/or Russia, further proves your lack of in-depth analysis and willingness to mislead folks for your ego stroke. You should be ashamed of yourself
Nice try, but don't attempt to pitifully gain vindication by specifying why you feel correct about the motivations behind the sanctions, after incorrectly minimizing the impact of the sanctions
So now you're shifting away from misleading claims of export tampering and individual sanctions to again attempt to discredit Mugabe's addressing his country's white supremacist problem by listing the questionable actions of his regime. This shift in your argument proves how pathetic you are and how disingenuous you are about the lives and conditions of those victims because you mentioned China, North Korea and Vietnam, without referencing their government;s questionable actions against their people
Not one person that supports Mugabe's addressing his white minority problem will pretend that he's a saint. Furthermore I won't pretend that the oppositions are legit and justified in their claims. Especially when you have tribal conflicts, foreign interference, control of a government at stake, and addressing white supremacy, the situation easily becomes very complex
Thus why it's very important to maintain perspective while conducting in depth analysis of the situation and to strive for truth, instead of daps and ego stroke. Name me a country that hasn't committed questionable acts geared towards its citizens, then I will wake you up from your dream state
What a lying POS.
Your comments were due to your intellectual laziness. Your export tampering and individual sanctions arguments were proven to be wrong and misleading
Now highlight the post that shows me either for or against export oriented industrialization.
You're clearly trying to argue just for the sake of arguing at this point
DrBanneker
Space is the Place
For all that happened, you have to give Mugabe credit though as being one of the few African countries with adult literacy at almost 90%. Even Rwanda and Kenya aren't there yet. I agree though, the raw materials curse hurt Africa bad. When you don't have stuff to mine or pump out of the ground it is much easier to force someone to invest in people.
