Shaq is barely a top 5 center?

[Jplaya2023]

You are trolling right? Please tell me you are?

Bad luck as in playing with Penny, Kobe, and D. Wade? As in playing for Phil Jackson and Pat Riley? As in not being able to sit on his fat ass and eat cheeseburgers and stay in shape/healthy?

Bad timing as in playing in the same era as inferior Cs and a 6'6 shooting guard? Bad timing as in being 27 when all those guys where done and still only winning 4 rings thereafter in great part becuase he acted like a bytch and in part because a PF with less natural ability and less talent around him gave him the business and in part because his body that he didn't take care of broke down?

It's hilarious to me how people want to give people a certain status and turn around and cop pleas for that person and not hold them accountable for the status that they have bestowed upon them.

Him and Penny were young their ego'd clashed, he had to face the best team of all time and dream

Prime Shaq and Young Kobe won 3 straight but their ego's clased and that ended that

older shaq had young d wade they won 1 then shaq got flabby n sick

that was the end of his chapter

 

[FTBS]

Him and Penny were young their ego'd clashed, he had to face the best team of all time and dream

Prime Shaq and Young Kobe won 3 straight but their ego's clased and that ended that

older shaq had young d wade they won 1 then shaq got flabby n sick

that was the end of his chapter

What's that got to do with luck or timing breh? Sounds like bytch made behavior and not taking care of himself had a greater impact. Once again I am not questioning his greatness or even his all-time greatness I am questioning his GOAT Center/Most dominant/Highest Peak would've put up 60/30 in another era despite never doing half that in his era ness.

 

[McTwerk]

You copy and pasting an article means nothing

That's how the internet works

You can interpret facts or stats any way

You can even manipulate stats to work in your favor

Smarten up Nas

If bill Russell was in today's game he would be Ben Wallace

Nothing more

Yeah, cause basing your entire argument off the fact that there were more nonathletic white people in the league when Bill played is a much more valid argument then looking at the facts.
You can't look at that list of All Star caliber, Hall of Fame players and tell me it was a weaker talent pool.
I wonder how much tape you've seen on Bill...maybe a couple clips on ESPN? Fukk outta here with this nonsense breh, you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Die And Hakeem's best isn't better than Shaq's best. ..Shaq would of crushed Kareem. Kareem can't be who he is if played against Shaq...same goes for Wilt and Russell.

If Wilt didn't crush Kareem, then Shaq wouldn't have.

 

[Goatpoacher]

A big man is a big man IMO. And if a PF or whatever is giving it to you and matching or outplaying you I gotta call your dominance and "highest peak ever" into question.

By redefining the parameters of this thread and failing to apply your own definition to the others? Using your methodology WHO HAS THE HIGHEST PEAK?

 

[FTBS]

By redefining the parameters of this thread and failing to apply your own definition to the others? Using your methodology WHO HAS THE HIGHEST PEAK?

Let's see...

Maybe the guy who avg. 50 and 25 and won 7 straight scoring titles and has the 2nd highest ppg and one of the highest rpg
Maybe the guy who was the anchor on 8 straight champions and among the greatest defensive forces ever
Maybe the guy who avg. more pts or reb and ast in a season than Shaq ever has
Maybe the guy who was miles better on defense with comparable offensive numbers

Certainly not Shaq though.

The parameters of this thread are...is Shaq a top 5 C all time? He is and if people like yourself could just leave it at that the thread would be over. Instead nikkas wanna talk about highest peaks and most dominant or even flat out say he's the best when there is nothing to support any of that.

 

[mastermind]

Shaq was a victim of bad luck and bad timing.

:ray:

 

[Goatpoacher]

Let's see...

Maybe the guy who avg. 50 and 25 and won 7 straight scoring titles and has the 2nd highest ppg and one of the highest rpg
Maybe the guy who was the anchor on 8 straight champions and among the greatest defensive forces ever
Maybe the guy who avg. more pts or reb and ast in a season than Shaq ever has
Maybe the guy who was miles better on defense with comparable offensive numbers

Certainly not Shaq though.

The parameters of this thread are...is Shaq a top 5 C all time? He is and if people like yourself could just leave it at that the thread would be over. Instead nikkas wanna talk about highest peaks and most dominant or even flat out say he's the best when there is nothing to support any of that.

So you are saying nobody should engage in the discussion at all? The outside parameters of this thread are who are the top 5 centers. It's not a derogation from the topic to discuss who is the top 1 center.

And honestly, only Wilt has an argument along the lines I've suggested. Kareem operated at a high level for a long time. He's the Tim Duncan of Centers. Bill Russell's offensive production was worse than Shaq's defensive production. And frankly, I doubt he'd be much better than a prime Alonzo MOurning in the modern NBA.

If your last example is Hakeem: It's pretty easy to ignore his consistent failures in his early career. He went on a ridiculous tear when Jordan was out, and maybe you can compare that "Peak" to shaq around '99. But your same knocks against shaq apply to Hakeem don't they? Didn't he fail in the playoffs despite having stacked teams?

Wilt is probably the only other center that's a physical freak like Shaq was. However, he lacked playoff success and he was also a poor free throw shooter. Didn't you rip Shaq for his FT percentage?

Once again, I have to say I'm entirely unsure what you are asserting. If you are asserting that Wilt, Bill, Kareem, and Hakeem are all better than shaq overall, then you are missing my point. If you are asserting said four were better at their pinnacles than Shaq, then you have failed to show as much. If all you are saying is that we can never have a specific answer to the question and should never even make guesses, then you can say as much without ripping Shaq and making inconsistent assertions.

 

[FTBS]

So you are saying nobody should engage in the discussion at all? The outside parameters of this thread are who are the top 5 centers. It's not a derogation from the topic to discuss who is the top 1 center.

And honestly, only Wilt has an argument along the lines I've suggested. Kareem operated at a high level for a long time. He's the Tim Duncan of Centers. Bill Russell's offensive production was worse than Shaq's defensive production. And frankly, I doubt he'd be much better than a prime Alonzo MOurning in the modern NBA.

If your last example is Hakeem: It's pretty easy to ignore his consistent failures in his early career. He went on a ridiculous tear when Jordan was out, and maybe you can compare that "Peak" to shaq around '99. But your same knocks against shaq apply to Hakeem don't they? Didn't he fail in the playoffs despite having stacked teams?

Wilt is probably the only other center that's a physical freak like Shaq was. However, he lacked playoff success and he was also a poor free throw shooter. Didn't you rip Shaq for his FT percentage?

Once again, I have to say I'm entirely unsure what you are asserting. If you are asserting that Wilt, Bill, Kareem, and Hakeem are all better than shaq overall, then you are missing my point. If you are asserting said four were better at their pinnacles than Shaq, then you have failed to show as much. If all you are saying is that we can never have a specific answer to the question and should never even make guesses, then you can say as much without ripping Shaq and making inconsistent assertions.

I am not against discussing who is number 1 I am against people putting Shaq there with no support for that assertion other than potential and being wowed as a kid when he bulldozed Todd MacCullah.

When was Dream on a stacked team breh? When him Sampson and Murphy were going up against two of the greatest assemblages of talent ever (Lakers and C's of the 80's)? When him and the brigade tried to win one more for the road? Stop it breh. You can't compare any of Dream's teams to what Shaq was rolling with and getting upset/swept with most of the time AND Dream was a better defensive player. He compares to peak Shaq in that he outplayed the nikka head to head when Shaq was favored. nikkas need to stop acting like the Shaq that Dream faced in the Finals is so different from the Shaq that won titles. Biggest difference was no Dream standing in the way. Duncan gave him the business and he was pretty much on an island.

Kareem had a 35, 17, 5 season. Where is Shaq's? He's the all-time leading scorer and has 6 championships and MVPs. How does Shaq stack up?

Bill Russell was 11 for 13 with stacked teams. Shaq was 4 for 19.

I am asserting that those 4 men are greater than Shaq in stats, accomplishments, and or ability and Shaq has no excuse for it being that way. He had the tools to destroy the record books both individually and teamwise and allowed catfights with teammates and laziness to stand in his way. GOAT potential but not quite GOAT production.

 

[Goatpoacher]

I am not against discussing who is number 1 I am against people putting Shaq there with no support for that assertion other than potential and being wowed as a kid when he bulldozed Todd MacCullah.

When was Dream on a stacked team breh? When him Sampson and Murphy were going up against two of the greatest assemblages of talent ever (Lakers and C's of the 80's)? When him and the brigade tried to win one more for the road? Stop it breh. You can't compare any of Dream's teams to what Shaq was rolling with and getting upset/swept with most of the time AND Dream was a better defensive player. He compares to peak Shaq in that he outplayed the nikka head to head when Shaq was favored. nikkas need to stop acting like the Shaq that Dream faced in the Finals is so different from the Shaq that won titles. Biggest difference was no Dream standing in the way. Duncan gave him the business and he was pretty much on an island.

Kareem had a 35, 17, 5 season. Where is Shaq's? He's the all-time leading scorer and has 6 championships and MVPs. How does Shaq stack up?

Bill Russell was 11 for 13 with stacked teams. Shaq was 4 for 19.

I am asserting that those 4 men are greater than Shaq in stats, accomplishments, and or ability and Shaq has no excuse for it being that way. He had the tools to destroy the record books both individually and teamwise and allowed catfights with teammates and laziness to stand in his way. GOAT potential but not quite GOAT production.

Are you seriously comparing the relative disparity between Russell and his celtics vs. Shaq and any of his teams? Only the 2004 lakers were equivalent and you could call them a Larry HOlmes Brigade as well.

And let's be honest about Kareem. He was capable of being shut down or slowed even in his prime. He was consistent but not completely unguardable. I realze this is purely hypothetical, but it's my belief that Prime Wilt vs. Prime Kareem vs. Prime Shaq vs. Prime Hakeem, the most valuable of that bunch is Prime Shaq to a 5 man team. Who would win 1-1 ? I have no idea and that's not what I'm talking about.

Let's put it this way: Out of the 5 mentioned, who was the most reliable and efficient producer in the regular and postseasons? Did you notice you use separate categories to explain why each of your chosen 4 is superior without acknowledging each of them has massive deficiencies? Bill Russell never produced alot, and how many of those 11 titles resulted in a Finals MVP for him? didn't the Celtics win 2 more after he left? Wilt's playoff lack of success doesn't bother you, but Shaq's inability to get more than 4 rings does? As for Kareem, he failed quite a bit in the playoffs. Let's not forget how much Magic extended his career either.

 

[THE K-MAN]

Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Malone

Good to see Mo get some props

 

[FTBS]

Are you seriously comparing the relative disparity between Russell and his celtics vs. Shaq and any of his teams? Only the 2004 lakers were equivalent and you could call them a Larry HOlmes Brigade as well.

And let's be honest about Kareem. He was capable of being shut down or slowed even in his prime. He was consistent but not completely unguardable. I realze this is purely hypothetical, but it's my belief that Prime Wilt vs. Prime Kareem vs. Prime Shaq vs. Prime Hakeem, the most valuable of that bunch is Prime Shaq to a 5 man team. Who would win 1-1 ? I have no idea and that's not what I'm talking about.

Let's put it this way: Out of the 5 mentioned, who was the most reliable and efficient producer in the regular and postseasons? Did you notice you use separate categories to explain why each of your chosen 4 is superior without acknowledging each of them has massive deficiencies? Bill Russell never produced alot, and how many of those 11 titles resulted in a Finals MVP for him? didn't the Celtics win 2 more after he left? Wilt's playoff lack of success doesn't bother you, but Shaq's inability to get more than 4 rings does? As for Kareem, he failed quite a bit in the playoffs. Let's not forget how much Magic extended his career either.

Breh in a league of one star per team squads, having a player of Kobe's caliber or anywhere near it=stacked. Russell was going through Wilt and HOFers with his stacked squads. Shaq was going through Duncan and Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson.

Shaq could be slowed too. He wasn't putting up 38 and 17 against everybody...sure didn't do it against Dream or Duncan or the Pistons. If Shaq was as unguardable as you suggest then there is no excuse for him only having 4 titles, 2 scoring titles, never avg. 30, not being higher on the all time scoring list...can't have it both ways breh. I think guys that can put up comparable or better numbers with better defense (Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem) would be pretty valuable. Russell more than proved his value with 11 rings in 13 years breh. They won 2 (aka 9 less than they won with him) after he left, just like the Lakers won 2 (aka 1 less than they won with him) after Shaq left. Not sure what your point was there. Wilt's playoff issues do bother me and that's the only reason he isn't undisputed GOAT player. Kareem failed in the playoffs (do you really wanna go there when riding for Shaq though ) and was extended by Magic but still won more titles in pretty much the same amount of time, set the all time scoring mark, and won 6 MVPs.

I never said any of those guys was perfect. I never denied their deficiencies. My only point has been these guys have edges on Shaq in key categories (numbers, rings won with comparable or less talent based on era, accomplishments, defense, head to head battles with comparable talent around them) and I don't see how shytting on subpar comp makes up for that.

 

[Goatpoacher]

Breh in a league of one star per team squads, having a player of Kobe's caliber or anywhere near it=stacked. Russell was going through Wilt and HOFers with his stacked squads. Shaq was going through Duncan and Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson.

Shaq could be slowed too. He wasn't putting up 38 and 17 against everybody...sure didn't do it against Dream or Duncan or the Pistons. If Shaq was as unguardable as you suggest then there is no excuse for him only having 4 titles, 2 scoring titles, never avg. 30, not being higher on the all time scoring list...can't have it both ways breh. I think guys that can put up comparable or better numbers with better defense (Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem) would be pretty valuable. Russell more than proved his value with 11 rings in 13 years breh. They won 2 (aka 9 less than they won with him) after he left, just like the Lakers won 2 (aka 1 less than they won with him) after Shaq left. Not sure what your point was there. Wilt's playoff issues do bother me and that's the only reason he isn't undisputed GOAT player. Kareem failed in the playoffs (do you really wanna go there when riding for Shaq though ) and was extended by Magic but still won more titles in pretty much the same amount of time, set the all time scoring mark, and won 6 MVPs.

I never said any of those guys was perfect. I never denied their deficiencies. My only point has been these guys have edges on Shaq in key categories (numbers, rings won with comparable or less talent based on era, accomplishments, defense, head to head battles with comparable talent around them) and I don't see how shytting on subpar comp makes up for that.

Shaq was killing the Pistons in 2004. You know as well as I do that he was "shutdown" by his own teammate.

 

[FTBS]

Shaq was killing the Pistons in 2004. You know as well as I do that he was "shutdown" by his own teammate.

His bad...should've been a better leader like Russell.

 

[Goatpoacher]

His bad...should've been a better leader like Russell.

Russell could win averaging like 10 points a game.

And name one player of any generation that could deal with a cancer like Kobe.