Shaq is barely a top 5 center?

[FTBS]

Well, Drob was still a force at that time. I'm taking that Spurs front court over the lakers.

And since your' one of the few posters I respect, I will provide you with an explanation as to our fundamental disagreement here. I have defined what I mean by "peak" and explained why I believe Shaq is the greatest center by that measure. Consequently, it's your task, if you disagree with me, to explain why my definition of "peak" is incomplete, lacking , or otherwise incorrect. There's no point in arguing within the bounds of your definition, you need to explain why your definition is superior.

I'm willing to be convinced. Fact is, I hated the lakers then, hate them now, and thought shaq was an unfair piece of shyt. So please convince me I am wrong.

And I explained why his peak isn't that great. I don't know what you want from me breh. I pointed to other players, not even bigs, scoring more. I pointed to the lack of comp. I pointed to the great players he had be his side for almost his whole career and still only mustered 4 rings in damn near 20 years. I pointed to how he wasn't so dominant when he had comp. If that's not enough to get you off this "greatest center/highest peak" stuff obviously you just aren't trying to hear it.

 

[Goatpoacher]

And I explained why his peak isn't that great. I don't know what you want from me breh. I pointed to other players, not even bigs, scoring more. I pointed to the lack of comp. I pointed to the great players he had be his side for almost his whole career and still only mustered 4 rings in damn near 20 years. I pointed to how he wasn't so dominant when he had comp. If that's not enough to get you off this "greatest center/highest peak" stuff obviously you just aren't trying to hear it.

Well, I'm still not sure what you are asking me to believe instead. If I've asserted X, are you saying "NOt X, But Y" or are you saying "NOt X, Not Y, fukk you, fukk everybody, fukk Bad Boy as a staff record label and as a motherfukking crew." ????

1. Scoring more does not necessarily mean better. I won't place Wilt over Shaq based on this alone.
2. Lack of competition? That would disqualify Bill Russell from contention. Nobody was competing with those stacked teams. The other problem with this argument is simple: Shaq as a youngster faced Mutumbo, Ewing, D.Rob, Mourning, Ostertag in their primes. He held his own just fine, despite the fact he was not as polished as he was 99-2004.
3. Well, I've made it clear that I believe he had a short peak. HE was a beast in his younger days but from 99-2003 he was unstoppable. Consequently, this is a non-point.
4. He did dominate despite lacking discipline and motivation when he was younger. Dude was just fukking around putting up monster numbers in his first few years.

 

[McTwerk]

How many white players are in the league now?

How many white players were in the league in the past?

What is the talent and athletic level of white players?

Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:

Boston Celtics: Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy

Russell and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russell and Chamberlain faced included:

1960-1964:
Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas

1965-1968:
Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond

1969-1972:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens

Another common misperception is that Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"


Can't wait to hear your rebuttal once you choke on some actual facts breh....

 

[FTBS]

Well, I'm still not sure what you are asking me to believe instead. If I've asserted X, are you saying "NOt X, But Y" or are you saying "NOt X, Not Y, fukk you, fukk everybody, fukk Bad Boy as a staff record label and as a motherfukking crew." ????

1. Scoring more does not necessarily mean better. I won't place Wilt over Shaq based on this alone.
2. Lack of competition? That would disqualify Bill Russell from contention. Nobody was competing with those stacked teams. The other problem with this argument is simple: Shaq as a youngster faced Mutumbo, Ewing, D.Rob, Mourning, Ostertag in their primes. He held his own just fine, despite the fact he was not as polished as he was 99-2004.
3. Well, I've made it clear that I believe he had a short peak. HE was a beast in his younger days but from 99-2003 he was unstoppable. Consequently, this is a non-point.
4. He did dominate despite lacking discipline and motivation when he was younger. Dude was just fukking around putting up monster numbers in his first few years.

1. This is true however it is a part of dominance. Wilt dominated by winning 7 scoring titles and scoring 50 ppg one season. Shaq didn't even top 30. Obviously they were in different eras but nobody before or since has come close to what Wilt did. Jerry Stackhouse did what Shaq did.
2. Breh when was Shaq not on a stacked team? Seriously nikkas act like he didn't play with Penny, Kobe, and Wade. Now compare that to Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson, and Ginobli.
3. nikkas need to stop acting like he turned some proverbial corner in 99. Mike was gone and all the great bigs were done. His path to his first championship: Vlade, Longley, flabby Sabonis, and 20MPG of Rik Smits. That had more to do with him winning and "dominating" than him some how taking his game to another level.
4. He actually put up some of his best numbers in his early years. But he wasn't winning championships or scoring titles and he was getting swept every year with talented teams so how is that dominant?

 

[Eternal Tecate]

Shaq is 3rd at worst

 

[Goatpoacher]

1. This is true however it is a part of dominance. Wilt dominated by winning 7 scoring titles and scoring 50 ppg one season. Shaq didn't even top 30. Obviously they were in different eras but nobody before or since has come close to what Wilt did. Jerry Stackhouse did what Shaq did.
2. Breh when was Shaq not on a stacked team? Seriously nikkas act like he didn't play with Penny, Kobe, and Wade. Now compare that to Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Derek "The Answer for Kobe" Anderson, and Ginobli.
3. nikkas need to stop acting like he turned some proverbial corner in 99. Mike was gone and all the great bigs were done. His path to his first championship: Vlade, Longley, flabby Sabonis, and 20MPG of Rik Smits. That had more to do with him winning and "dominating" than him some how taking his game to another level.
4. He actually put up some of his best numbers in his early years. But he wasn't winning championships or scoring titles and he was getting swept every year with talented teams so how is that dominant?

Well then, we saw very different things in 99. He played a controlled half-court style that he absolutely dominated once he had Phil guiding him. I saw that as a water shed moment. If you don't see things the same way, I don't care. This is not all that important.

BTW, the 2006 heat were not a stacked team by any measure. And Shaq was garbage. So are you saying 2006 Wade is the GOAT because he won on a team filled with cast-offs and has beens and never-was(es?). I can actually agree with that.

 

[Newzz]

What are u telling me I don't already know except a fake perception and belief that Hakeem at his best would hold up against Shaq when he became practically unstoppable.
.

Shaq became "unstoppable" in 2000 right?

Let's see WHO was unable to stop him then

List of each team's starting Center of the 1999-2000 season that guarded the "unstoppable" Shaq that Prime Hakeem/Wilt/Kareem/Bill Russell wouldnt be able to contain:

Alonzo Mourning (Heat)
Patrick Ewing (Knicks)
Theo Ratliff (76ers)
John Amaechi (Magic)
Vitaly Potapenko (Celtics)
Jim Mcilvaine (Nets)
Jahidi White (Wizards)
Dikembe Mutombo (Hawks)
Rik Smits (Pacers)
Elden Campbell (Hornets)
Antonio Davis (Raptors)
Christian Laettner (Pistons)
Ervin Johnson (Bucks)
Mark Bryant (Cavs)
dikkey Simpkins (Bulls)
Olden Polynice (Jazz)
David Robinson (Spurs)
Rasho Nesterovic (Timberwolves)
Shawn Bradley (Mavs)
Raef LaFrentz (Nuggets)
Kelvin Cato (Rockets)
Bryant Reeves (Grizzlies)
Arvydas Sabonis (Blazers)
Luc Longley (Suns)
Vin Baker (Sonics)
Vlade Divac (Kings)
Adonal Foyle (Warriors)
Michael Olawakandi (Clippers)






How did Shaq manage to survive going up against that competition?





Prime Hakeem/Wilt/Kareem would've put up similar or even BETTER numbers

 

[FTBS]

Well then, we saw very different things in 99. He played a controlled half-court style that he absolutely dominated once he had Phil guiding him. I saw that as a water shed moment. If you don't see things the same way, I don't care. This is not all that important.

BTW, the 2006 heat were not a stacked team by any measure. And Shaq was garbage. So are you saying 2006 Wade is the GOAT because he won on a team filled with cast-offs and has beens and never-was(es?). I can actually agree with that.

No I am saying Shaq wasn't short on help throughout his career and had the talent around him to go on a Russell type run. If you are the most dominant C ever and you play with the talent he played with you should have more than 4 rings breh. I'm not saying he's not great or one of the greatest but the numbers and rings (considering help and competition) just don't add up to greatest. Like I said before if Duncan had a perimeter player anywhere near Kobe from 00-02, Shaq might be Ewing status.

 

[Goatpoacher]

No I am saying Shaq wasn't short on help throughout his career and had the talent around him to go on a Russell type run. If you are the most dominant C ever and you play with the talent he played with you should have more than 4 rings breh. I'm not saying he's not great or one of the greatest but the numbers and rings (considering help and competition) just don't add up to greatest. Like I said before if Duncan had a perimeter player anywhere near Kobe from 00-02, Shaq might be Ewing status.

Since I specifically have said Shaq had a short peak, then why do you insist on talking about his entire career? YOu may have noticed that 3 of his 4 rings came during the time frame I have specified.

Besides, TD was injured in 2001 I believe, so Shaq would have had at least one ring. And if Kobe didn't decide to be a bytch made cancer, shaq could have won 4-5 in a row.

 

[Amare's Right Hook]

Kareem
Bill Russell
Olajuwon
Wilt
Sabonis/Anthony Davis/Divac

are all much better than Shaq fat ass, Kobe coulda won at least 3 rings without him. Can't say the same for Mr oneill tho

try harder

 

[FTBS]

Since I specifically have said Shaq had a short peak, then why do you insist on talking about his entire career? YOu may have noticed that 3 of his 4 rings came during the time frame I have specified.

Besides, TD was injured in 2001 I believe, so Shaq would have had at least one ring. And if Kobe didn't decide to be a bytch made cancer, shaq could have won 4-5 in a row.

Shaq was just as bytch made and lol at you agreeing with my point about Duncan and trying to pump up Shaq's dominance during that period at the same time.

 

[Goatpoacher]

Shaq was just as bytch made and lol at you agreeing with my point about Duncan and trying to pump up Shaq's dominance during that period at the same time.

TD insists he's a PF. Check the thread title.

 

[Draje]

People need to stop comparing Shaq and Hakeem's scoring without comparing their efficiency or even context for Shaq's stats.

Shaq, in his prime, broke the rules and was getting his numbers through double and triple teams that Hakeem wasn't seeing back.

30 PPG but attracting double and triple teams is better than 30 PPG and single coverage. Shaq was probably the most offensively dominant player to ever play.

 

[Newzz]

People need to stop comparing Shaq and Hakeem's scoring without comparing their efficiency or even context for Shaq's stats.

Shaq, in his prime, broke the rules and was getting his numbers through double and triple teams that Hakeem wasn't seeing back.

30 PPG but attracting double and triple teams is better than 30 PPG and single coverage. Shaq was probably the most offensively dominant player to ever play.

WHO he was playing against though to try and say "context" in comparision to what Hakeem was doing?



Shaq had no competition. Wilt played against tougher competition than the 1999 - 2000 starting Centers


Alonzo Mourning (Heat)
Patrick Ewing (Knicks)
Theo Ratliff (76ers)
John Amaechi (Magic)
Vitaly Potapenko (Celtics)
Jim Mcilvaine (Nets)
Jahidi White (Wizards)
Dikembe Mutombo (Hawks)
Rik Smits (Pacers)
Elden Campbell (Hornets)
Antonio Davis (Raptors)
Christian Laettner (Pistons)
Ervin Johnson (Bucks)
Mark Bryant (Cavs)
dikkey Simpkins (Bulls)
Olden Polynice (Jazz)
David Robinson (Spurs)
Rasho Nesterovic (Timberwolves)
Shawn Bradley (Mavs)
Raef LaFrentz (Nuggets)
Kelvin Cato (Rockets)
Bryant Reeves (Grizzlies)
Arvydas Sabonis (Blazers)
Luc Longley (Suns)
Vin Baker (Sonics)
Vlade Divac (Kings)
Adonal Foyle (Warriors)
Michael Olawakandi (Clippers)

 

[Apex]

Kareem
Bill Russell
Olajuwon
Wilt
Sabonis/Anthony Davis/Divac

are all much better than Shaq fat ass, Kobe coulda won at least 3 rings without him. Can't say the same for Mr oneill tho

Why do I bother with this site?