Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
But the lakers weren't good back then. Seems a bit sketchy to me
Since this is probably Kobe's last season playing, I guess it's time to admit
- Thread starter A.Boyd
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Bilz
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I'm guessing he was real young around 2000 and just jumped on every team that was winning at the time. Probably a Yankees fan too.But the lakers weren't good back then. Seems a bit sketchy to me
Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
Kids do tend to do that
Stack Money
All Star
nikkas become fans of teams far away all the time I already said I been a Pats fan since the 90s, besides I got fam in Boston I've gone there durin winters several times cause I love the snow. And I don't need to "give you" shyt bytch I don't owe you an explanation
I never gave a shyt about the Rams and I like the Raiders franchise but wasn't a fan of theirs I'm not obligated to be a fan of a team in my city hell you live in LA yet are supposedly a Kings fan.
I don't care if they were good I've loved the Lakers all my life they ain't good now but I'm still a fan, you a Heat bandwagon fan so you really shouldn't be sayin shyt.But the lakers weren't good back then. Seems a bit sketchy to me
I was in high school in 2000 I'm prolly older than you nikka and the Pats weren't even winnin that year you just assumin shyt about me cause you butthurt over me etherin your Kobe hatin ass and need to deflect
and you wrong again I hate the Yankees I don't really fukk wit baseball but I'm a Dodgers fan. I like every current LA team except the bytch ass Clippers who you ridin for yet are also a fan of the Kings even tho you from LA.
How you a fan of 2 teams in the same division?
You and your boyfriend both some hypocritical ass nikkas. And I see that other Kobe hater layin in the cut dappin you up again, you fags gettin giddy over false assumptions slappin hands like 2 bit sissies.:michaeljordanlaugh:I'm prolly older than you too nikkaKids do tend to do that
again you jumped on the Heat bandwagon yet are tryna accuse me of that shyt in a pathetic attempt to discredit what I said in here.
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Who is the hero we need of the two? 
Who is the hero we deserve?
Who is the hero we deserve?
@Stack Money (1/2)
You're responding to my posts with the exact same word length and you're the one who quoted me first with this nonsense. Who's the one really catching feelings here?
Probably falls on deaf ears, but again I'll tell you I'm far from a LBJ stan. @Ben & @ISOMELO can attest to that and they've known me for years. You just can't comprehend someone using objective reasoning to take LBJ in this comparison.
Of course LBJ has had his postseason failures, but they're all accounted for in his career averages. You just can't recognize them because his great performances far overwhelm his shortcomings. You can pull some of LBJ's chokes if you want, and I'll trounce them with legendary performances that far outweigh what happened. Its no surprise that his elimination/game 7 averages are so great when he's had performances like this:
Its a complete myth that he folds under pressure. One of the GOAT's with their back against the wall, regardless of what happened in 2011.
No, Peyton Manning has generally been a playoff disappointment. That hasn't been LeBron, who's objectively among the greatest PS performers of all time and is recognized for elevating his game to another level on that stage. In football, the quarterback can only influence one unit of the team while LBJ can impact both ends of a basketball court which he has done with extreme success. This is a very poor analogy. Its also stupid to use the ring argument in football since the QB has no influence over the defense and special teams units.
He didn't have enough help. The role players around his near unprecedented impact were good enough to compete & have exceptional RS sucess, but not to win a championship. There's an obvious difference between the two that you aren't connecting. And in spite of the role players, the fact that they won 60 games is incredible honestly and a testament to how dominant he was on both ends of the floor. You do realize he anchored those Cavs on both ends of the court right. You do realize that with him off the floor the Cavs went from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst right, ditto offensively. This is more than you could have said for Kobe at any point in his career. The Cavs would eventually surround him with good three point shooting (many of those shots he was directly responsible for generating btw), but there was a serious lack of shot creation beside him and the team relied too much on Bron to do literally everything. He didn't have a Pau who you could toss the ball to on the block for a reliable source of points or facilitation, an Odom who could reliably run the offense for stretches if need be or god knows how much a Shaquille O'Neal (top 5 most dominant player ever) would've helped. I've already gone over why the '06 Cavs were on the same level of shyt as the '06 Lakers, apparently you've just glossed over that. You can say the same for the early versions of the Cavs if you want, just used '06 because it was in the same season as Kobe. The '07 Cavs were also a bad supporting cast, one of the worst teams to ever make the NBA Finals, Its largely thanks to the greatness of LBJ that they even got there to begin with.
1) You're making the mistake of attributing Iverson & T Mac's "struggles" only to Kobe, and not the entire team. It's a collaborative effort to stop those types of players and while Kobe was the primary defender, if he didn't have an elite rim protector behind him to cover they'd have much more success against the team. Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue also saw a lot of time on Iverson.
Just think about this. Where is the most efficient spot on a basketball court? Where is the spot on the floor that every team designs their defense to protect? The paint. Coaches preach no layups and dunks. Big men can be responsible for shutting down the area on the floor with the highest chance for success, in addition to ending their possessions on the defensive glass and guarding their opposing matchup in the post. They have much more responsibility than a perimeter defender. You put Kobe against either of those two on an island and he's getting cooked more often than not. This isn't a game of 1on1, you need a collaborative effort in order to defend generational scorers and Shaq (along with other Lakers defenders) played a role in that.
Not really sure what you're on about with canceling out scoring. Shaq scored more points than Kobe against the 76ers in the Finals. When Iverson had his best game of the series, Shaq was the one matching him in output and not Kobe. If anything, he's the one doing the responding. Kobe being guarded by Iverson is pretty much an easy look every possession, so not sure why you're so adamant about this superstar head to head stuff. Would agree that Kobe was better than Iverson, although '03 T mac is on par with Kobe at his best. He had a lot of success against the Lakers that year, Kobe didn't really bother him.
Sure, Shaq absolutely needed Kobe to win those titles. Its a mutual relationship, again the person talking about carrying is only you. I'm just saying that Shaq was better, which is a fact, and that LBJ never had the privilege of playing on a team where he wasn't the best player let alone with a guy who was the best in the sport. Them needing one another to win doesn't mean there wasn't a clear distinction between best and second best.
2) Lol, so now I have to be a hater to see that Duncan was better than Kobe. Its an arguable discussion, but given TD's dominance on the defensive end of the floor (in the same convo with Russell, KG for defensive acumen) consistently anchoring top defenses all throughout his prime and his all time great utility from the post as a scorer & passer, I consider him to be the better and more impactful player for his team's success. I value elite versatility, and Duncan has that in spades. Its not a very long list of players I consider better than Kobe, so no need to get so upset.
No, being a Kobe fan does not mean you automatically think he's GOAT or better than LBJ/Duncan. Just means I have a great appreciation for his game, not blinded to reality. I have no idea what you were trying to say in the latter portion of that post but Duncan was working defensively every goddamn possession regardless of who came at him.
3) Shaq got hacked by every team man, he took a beating getting fouled by defenders who couldn't do anything to stop him but that. Regardless of his size, those hits add up over the course of a season and took a toll on his body. It was because he was so huge that defenders got away with taking borderline flagrant shots at him with zero reproduction. Taking 18 foot jumpers isn't as tiring as having to take contact every possession in order to score your points. Shooting a jumpshot at the very least saves you from having that happen.
Since you're arguing fatigue here, you should not ignore the differences in conditioning. There's nothing that suggests that Shaq was fresher than Kobe throughout those Finals.
& again whether you want to accept this or not, the 76ers were a damn good defensive team and Mutumbo just got done being a major reason the 76ers even advanced to the NBA Finals to begin with. If you don't remember, Iverson was horrid in the ECF Vs the Bucks (Who had a terrible defense, but AI still played poorly) but the team still won thanks to Mutumbo's fantastic defense, work on the glass (15.6 rebs) and reliable source of points (16.6 ppg). Yeah, but that guy was old and somehow presented no sort of challenge for Shaq whatsoever.
Wasn't just Duncan, but Duncan AND David Robinson. That's like putting Pippen and Rodman on Kobe. Just having a big man that can score with Shaq isn't close to enough. You could've swapped Duncan with Bill Russell (a subpar scorer with little to no 1on1 moves) and the result would've been the same. Yes Kobe got doubled but not remotely close to the same extent as Shaq. It was obvious as day what Pop's plan was against LA in that series.
4) I didn't leave out assists, I clearly laid that out for you and showed that the differences between he & Shaq weren't massive like the rebounding adv was. People forget how great of a playmaker Shaq was and the consistently great decisions he made out of double teams. Yes big men are more dominant at rebounding, which helps them at being more impactful as defenders because rebounding is a part of defense.
No, Kobe did not have that same level of dominance and never was the finisher MJ/Shaq/LBJ were. He was a strong slasher, but not legendary like those three who are in a class all their own. Kobe actually was never a truly great shooter, reputation is higher than reality. Generally subpar from three and while a good mid range shooter, never a deadeye accurate one like Dirk & MJ (Both have hit upwards of 50% in their primes for mid). Funny you say LBJ is very inconsistent considering his 3PT% isn't any worse than Kobe's. Strength of Kobe's scoring is more in his completeness and ability to rely on a myriad of tools in his arsenal than one specific dominant area imo.
Again with the graphic. You can't just pretend like the Finals never happened. Kobe did not lead the team in scoring during a single postseason run for the threepeat Lakers.
The old "Advanced stats are shyt" argument. PER is exactly what you'd be looking for to measure how productive two players are. The flaw in PER is that it doesn't adjust for players who have a limited sample size of playing time or measure actions that aren't recorded in the box score like rotations, screen setting, hockey assists, floor spacing and other important aspects of the game. None of that is relevant here in our discussion of who was the more dominant player. That's Shaq, PER proves it, the eye test proves it, you just aren't willing to accept the truth.
Go ahead and tell me what actual stats support Kobe over LBJ or Shaq. Seriously, do that. The only thing that you've ever used here to support him is a ring count, and I've told you my issues with those who use that logic as a crutch.
The Heat had an oft injured all star in Wade who didn't play like such in the postseason on a consistent basis (unlike Gasol & Shaq), and with the way Miami used him Bosh was a high end role player. He wasn't much better than Odom for LA. Those two were not as reliable as Shaq or Gasol were for the Lakers. I see you've ignored my point about the '01 Lakers role players. I'll just assume that as an admission that they were better than the likes of Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Mario Chalmers, Udonis Haslem, Chris Andersen and Ray Allen. Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Rick Fox were an objectively better support cast and you've provided zero reasoning as to why they wouldn't be. When you factor in those role players into the consistency of the Lakers stars and Phil Jackson as a tactician, Kobe had the better supporting cast and I don't think this is even worth a serious discussion. No, I bring up coaches because I like my arguments to be complete.
You threw an insult my direction so I did the same back, this stuff we're talking about isn't worth getting actually mad over. Its you that's irritating. Got mad respect for Kobe & LBJ.
So was Wade batman in the 2012 ECF & Finals. Are you about to suggest that he was. Was he the Batman in the 2013 postseason where he averaged 15 ppg. Are you about to suggest that he was. Because that's two titles with Wade taking a backseat to LBJ. Wade being hurt isn't an excuse, its reality that you for some reason aren't willing to accept. Him being hurt to the point beyond recognition (net negative in the '14 Finals, meaning the Heat were worse with him on the court b/c of his uselessness on both ends) is beyond just him needing to be a batman. LBJ needed him to be just good at basketball. Joe Johnson would've been better for Miami than him for that season.
Basketball is a team sport. Doesn't matter if there are lesser dimensions than larger organized competitions, The only sports where championships should be used as a complete measuring stick are those that are individual like Golf and Tennis. So long as this league requires five players to suit up & a full bench to compete in games, the ring argument will be nonsense. I'm actually not biased, think I'm objective here since I've crushed LBJ in discussions before and this is probably the first time I've gone to such a length to defend him.
Players experiences can make them more biased actually. Why do you think Shaq hates Nash's MVP's so much or that there's such extreme variation in their all time great lists.
I'm pretty sure his defense against Rose in the '11 ECF is as close to lockdown as it gets. Generally don't like to use that term when it comes to anyone because of how important team D is + the fact that true superstar scorers can get a shot against anybody, but the man is impervious to screens, rarely gets bumped out of position, gets engaged without fouling, has a huge size advantage over guards and its thanks to his stature that he can switch on bigger defenders for short bursts. He can act as a rim protector and defend the post at a high level. This is why he's carried more influence on his respective teams than Kobe. This is why he's been the best defender on several top shelf defenses, and this is why he's a better defender than Kobe ever was. His team defense is on an entirely different level.
Not leaving out his two finals appearances, if you read the last post I already acknowledged how he's slipped in recent years. I speak of his defensive prime, much like you when you bring up early Kobe.
You're responding to my posts with the exact same word length and you're the one who quoted me first with this nonsense. Who's the one really catching feelings here?
Probably falls on deaf ears, but again I'll tell you I'm far from a LBJ stan. @Ben & @ISOMELO can attest to that and they've known me for years. You just can't comprehend someone using objective reasoning to take LBJ in this comparison.
Of course LBJ has had his postseason failures, but they're all accounted for in his career averages. You just can't recognize them because his great performances far overwhelm his shortcomings. You can pull some of LBJ's chokes if you want, and I'll trounce them with legendary performances that far outweigh what happened. Its no surprise that his elimination/game 7 averages are so great when he's had performances like this:
Its a complete myth that he folds under pressure. One of the GOAT's with their back against the wall, regardless of what happened in 2011.
No, Peyton Manning has generally been a playoff disappointment. That hasn't been LeBron, who's objectively among the greatest PS performers of all time and is recognized for elevating his game to another level on that stage. In football, the quarterback can only influence one unit of the team while LBJ can impact both ends of a basketball court which he has done with extreme success. This is a very poor analogy. Its also stupid to use the ring argument in football since the QB has no influence over the defense and special teams units.
He didn't have enough help. The role players around his near unprecedented impact were good enough to compete & have exceptional RS sucess, but not to win a championship. There's an obvious difference between the two that you aren't connecting. And in spite of the role players, the fact that they won 60 games is incredible honestly and a testament to how dominant he was on both ends of the floor. You do realize he anchored those Cavs on both ends of the court right. You do realize that with him off the floor the Cavs went from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst right, ditto offensively. This is more than you could have said for Kobe at any point in his career. The Cavs would eventually surround him with good three point shooting (many of those shots he was directly responsible for generating btw), but there was a serious lack of shot creation beside him and the team relied too much on Bron to do literally everything. He didn't have a Pau who you could toss the ball to on the block for a reliable source of points or facilitation, an Odom who could reliably run the offense for stretches if need be or god knows how much a Shaquille O'Neal (top 5 most dominant player ever) would've helped. I've already gone over why the '06 Cavs were on the same level of shyt as the '06 Lakers, apparently you've just glossed over that. You can say the same for the early versions of the Cavs if you want, just used '06 because it was in the same season as Kobe. The '07 Cavs were also a bad supporting cast, one of the worst teams to ever make the NBA Finals, Its largely thanks to the greatness of LBJ that they even got there to begin with.
1) You're making the mistake of attributing Iverson & T Mac's "struggles" only to Kobe, and not the entire team. It's a collaborative effort to stop those types of players and while Kobe was the primary defender, if he didn't have an elite rim protector behind him to cover they'd have much more success against the team. Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue also saw a lot of time on Iverson.
Just think about this. Where is the most efficient spot on a basketball court? Where is the spot on the floor that every team designs their defense to protect? The paint. Coaches preach no layups and dunks. Big men can be responsible for shutting down the area on the floor with the highest chance for success, in addition to ending their possessions on the defensive glass and guarding their opposing matchup in the post. They have much more responsibility than a perimeter defender. You put Kobe against either of those two on an island and he's getting cooked more often than not. This isn't a game of 1on1, you need a collaborative effort in order to defend generational scorers and Shaq (along with other Lakers defenders) played a role in that.
Not really sure what you're on about with canceling out scoring. Shaq scored more points than Kobe against the 76ers in the Finals. When Iverson had his best game of the series, Shaq was the one matching him in output and not Kobe. If anything, he's the one doing the responding. Kobe being guarded by Iverson is pretty much an easy look every possession, so not sure why you're so adamant about this superstar head to head stuff. Would agree that Kobe was better than Iverson, although '03 T mac is on par with Kobe at his best. He had a lot of success against the Lakers that year, Kobe didn't really bother him.
Sure, Shaq absolutely needed Kobe to win those titles. Its a mutual relationship, again the person talking about carrying is only you. I'm just saying that Shaq was better, which is a fact, and that LBJ never had the privilege of playing on a team where he wasn't the best player let alone with a guy who was the best in the sport. Them needing one another to win doesn't mean there wasn't a clear distinction between best and second best.
2) Lol, so now I have to be a hater to see that Duncan was better than Kobe. Its an arguable discussion, but given TD's dominance on the defensive end of the floor (in the same convo with Russell, KG for defensive acumen) consistently anchoring top defenses all throughout his prime and his all time great utility from the post as a scorer & passer, I consider him to be the better and more impactful player for his team's success. I value elite versatility, and Duncan has that in spades. Its not a very long list of players I consider better than Kobe, so no need to get so upset.
No, being a Kobe fan does not mean you automatically think he's GOAT or better than LBJ/Duncan. Just means I have a great appreciation for his game, not blinded to reality. I have no idea what you were trying to say in the latter portion of that post but Duncan was working defensively every goddamn possession regardless of who came at him.
3) Shaq got hacked by every team man, he took a beating getting fouled by defenders who couldn't do anything to stop him but that. Regardless of his size, those hits add up over the course of a season and took a toll on his body. It was because he was so huge that defenders got away with taking borderline flagrant shots at him with zero reproduction. Taking 18 foot jumpers isn't as tiring as having to take contact every possession in order to score your points. Shooting a jumpshot at the very least saves you from having that happen.
Since you're arguing fatigue here, you should not ignore the differences in conditioning. There's nothing that suggests that Shaq was fresher than Kobe throughout those Finals.
& again whether you want to accept this or not, the 76ers were a damn good defensive team and Mutumbo just got done being a major reason the 76ers even advanced to the NBA Finals to begin with. If you don't remember, Iverson was horrid in the ECF Vs the Bucks (Who had a terrible defense, but AI still played poorly) but the team still won thanks to Mutumbo's fantastic defense, work on the glass (15.6 rebs) and reliable source of points (16.6 ppg). Yeah, but that guy was old and somehow presented no sort of challenge for Shaq whatsoever.
Wasn't just Duncan, but Duncan AND David Robinson. That's like putting Pippen and Rodman on Kobe. Just having a big man that can score with Shaq isn't close to enough. You could've swapped Duncan with Bill Russell (a subpar scorer with little to no 1on1 moves) and the result would've been the same. Yes Kobe got doubled but not remotely close to the same extent as Shaq. It was obvious as day what Pop's plan was against LA in that series.
4) I didn't leave out assists, I clearly laid that out for you and showed that the differences between he & Shaq weren't massive like the rebounding adv was. People forget how great of a playmaker Shaq was and the consistently great decisions he made out of double teams. Yes big men are more dominant at rebounding, which helps them at being more impactful as defenders because rebounding is a part of defense.
No, Kobe did not have that same level of dominance and never was the finisher MJ/Shaq/LBJ were. He was a strong slasher, but not legendary like those three who are in a class all their own. Kobe actually was never a truly great shooter, reputation is higher than reality. Generally subpar from three and while a good mid range shooter, never a deadeye accurate one like Dirk & MJ (Both have hit upwards of 50% in their primes for mid). Funny you say LBJ is very inconsistent considering his 3PT% isn't any worse than Kobe's. Strength of Kobe's scoring is more in his completeness and ability to rely on a myriad of tools in his arsenal than one specific dominant area imo.
Again with the graphic. You can't just pretend like the Finals never happened. Kobe did not lead the team in scoring during a single postseason run for the threepeat Lakers.
The old "Advanced stats are shyt" argument. PER is exactly what you'd be looking for to measure how productive two players are. The flaw in PER is that it doesn't adjust for players who have a limited sample size of playing time or measure actions that aren't recorded in the box score like rotations, screen setting, hockey assists, floor spacing and other important aspects of the game. None of that is relevant here in our discussion of who was the more dominant player. That's Shaq, PER proves it, the eye test proves it, you just aren't willing to accept the truth.
Go ahead and tell me what actual stats support Kobe over LBJ or Shaq. Seriously, do that. The only thing that you've ever used here to support him is a ring count, and I've told you my issues with those who use that logic as a crutch.
The Heat had an oft injured all star in Wade who didn't play like such in the postseason on a consistent basis (unlike Gasol & Shaq), and with the way Miami used him Bosh was a high end role player. He wasn't much better than Odom for LA. Those two were not as reliable as Shaq or Gasol were for the Lakers. I see you've ignored my point about the '01 Lakers role players. I'll just assume that as an admission that they were better than the likes of Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Mario Chalmers, Udonis Haslem, Chris Andersen and Ray Allen. Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Rick Fox were an objectively better support cast and you've provided zero reasoning as to why they wouldn't be. When you factor in those role players into the consistency of the Lakers stars and Phil Jackson as a tactician, Kobe had the better supporting cast and I don't think this is even worth a serious discussion. No, I bring up coaches because I like my arguments to be complete.
You threw an insult my direction so I did the same back, this stuff we're talking about isn't worth getting actually mad over. Its you that's irritating. Got mad respect for Kobe & LBJ.
So was Wade batman in the 2012 ECF & Finals. Are you about to suggest that he was. Was he the Batman in the 2013 postseason where he averaged 15 ppg. Are you about to suggest that he was. Because that's two titles with Wade taking a backseat to LBJ. Wade being hurt isn't an excuse, its reality that you for some reason aren't willing to accept. Him being hurt to the point beyond recognition (net negative in the '14 Finals, meaning the Heat were worse with him on the court b/c of his uselessness on both ends) is beyond just him needing to be a batman. LBJ needed him to be just good at basketball. Joe Johnson would've been better for Miami than him for that season.
Basketball is a team sport. Doesn't matter if there are lesser dimensions than larger organized competitions, The only sports where championships should be used as a complete measuring stick are those that are individual like Golf and Tennis. So long as this league requires five players to suit up & a full bench to compete in games, the ring argument will be nonsense. I'm actually not biased, think I'm objective here since I've crushed LBJ in discussions before and this is probably the first time I've gone to such a length to defend him.
Players experiences can make them more biased actually. Why do you think Shaq hates Nash's MVP's so much or that there's such extreme variation in their all time great lists.
I'm pretty sure his defense against Rose in the '11 ECF is as close to lockdown as it gets. Generally don't like to use that term when it comes to anyone because of how important team D is + the fact that true superstar scorers can get a shot against anybody, but the man is impervious to screens, rarely gets bumped out of position, gets engaged without fouling, has a huge size advantage over guards and its thanks to his stature that he can switch on bigger defenders for short bursts. He can act as a rim protector and defend the post at a high level. This is why he's carried more influence on his respective teams than Kobe. This is why he's been the best defender on several top shelf defenses, and this is why he's a better defender than Kobe ever was. His team defense is on an entirely different level.
Not leaving out his two finals appearances, if you read the last post I already acknowledged how he's slipped in recent years. I speak of his defensive prime, much like you when you bring up early Kobe.
@Stack Money (2/2)
Andre Iguodala winning FMVP was a joke to be frank. Wasn't the best player on his own team and much of his points were a result of wide open shots by design of the Cavs D in an effort to stop Curry. The man was so disrespected that Mozgov saw time on him standing eight feet deep into the paint. Iggy then made them pay and hit his open shots. Kawhi wasn't half the player that LBJ was in the '14 Finals but he won because his team was better.
LOL at Kobe ever playing defense at the level of Jordan. That speaks volume of how high of a pedestal you place him on.
Picking and choosing? LBJ has such a vast sample size of dominance that there's no shortage of instances to prove his greatness. You'd be the one reaching trying to expose his failures and not acknowledging the triumphs.
Magic's play for the game was terrible. The point is that he didn't play up to his standard and failed under the bright lights in a closeout game. Had he played outstanding prior to that and simply had a ill timed string of poor possessions, the narrative may have been different. Its obvious that you're holding LBJ to a standard and ignoring the instances of everyone else. You know damn well if that exact same scenario happened to LBJ you'd be all over him.
The middle of a player prime is the apex of their abilities. That has little to do with where they are in their careers or when they'll decline. Kobe was still a very good player after 2010, but not the same as he used to be. That's when you could designate the tail end of his prime, and now he's a shell of himself so he's completely out of it. Its fine if you interpret that differently, moot point.
Idk what Odom's crack addiction has to do with this discussion. Pretty sure his addiction was candy back then, and he was a very nice role player for LA at the time.
1) Ok now you're just trolling. Kobe clearly played inferior against the Magic compared to LeBron. Do you not agree with this or will you actually try to argue otherwise. The only reason the Cavs lost and Lakers won, again, is because Kobe had better support.
2) Mkay, I'm telling you that's a myth. I don't think LeBron stans would so easily admit that. LBJ is definitely one of the most versatile wing defenders ever however.
3) So I post this
and you respond with a ducktales emoji. Right. Well, I'm here to inform you that this actually happened. It exists. You can watch video of it on youtube, for free. That is one of the greatest single series performances you will ever see.
4) Well Pau led the team in blocks that PS so rarely makes plays is inaccurate. His height & wingspan (+ the way he's being utilized) is the biggest reason he's blocking shots like crazy in Chicago today. He just knows how to use his size well and does a great job of it. His problem defensively is elsewhere, not m2m. And yes Bynum was important too, brought him up already.
Oh so Dwight shrank in the Finals now? Ok why didn't he do that against the Cavaliers? Is it possible that the Lakers were a better matchup for him for reasons that had nothing to do with Kobe or LeBron.
5) Again, no. I've been saying that Shaq was better than Kobe and he had the luxury of playing on a team with another generational player which directly led to three straight championships. I HATE the Shaq carried Kobe argument, and that's what I defend him from more than anything else except maybe the inefficient chucker narrative. You can come to whatever conclusion you want but the truth is I respect both of these players games and just can come to the conclusion that LBJ > Kobe without bias.
Andre Iguodala winning FMVP was a joke to be frank. Wasn't the best player on his own team and much of his points were a result of wide open shots by design of the Cavs D in an effort to stop Curry. The man was so disrespected that Mozgov saw time on him standing eight feet deep into the paint. Iggy then made them pay and hit his open shots. Kawhi wasn't half the player that LBJ was in the '14 Finals but he won because his team was better.
LOL at Kobe ever playing defense at the level of Jordan. That speaks volume of how high of a pedestal you place him on.
Picking and choosing? LBJ has such a vast sample size of dominance that there's no shortage of instances to prove his greatness. You'd be the one reaching trying to expose his failures and not acknowledging the triumphs.
Magic's play for the game was terrible. The point is that he didn't play up to his standard and failed under the bright lights in a closeout game. Had he played outstanding prior to that and simply had a ill timed string of poor possessions, the narrative may have been different. Its obvious that you're holding LBJ to a standard and ignoring the instances of everyone else. You know damn well if that exact same scenario happened to LBJ you'd be all over him.
The middle of a player prime is the apex of their abilities. That has little to do with where they are in their careers or when they'll decline. Kobe was still a very good player after 2010, but not the same as he used to be. That's when you could designate the tail end of his prime, and now he's a shell of himself so he's completely out of it. Its fine if you interpret that differently, moot point.
Idk what Odom's crack addiction has to do with this discussion. Pretty sure his addiction was candy back then, and he was a very nice role player for LA at the time.
If you sayin that Magic team were so good then the fact that Kobe swept them while LeBron took a L to them just proves my point.
1) Ok now you're just trolling. Kobe clearly played inferior against the Magic compared to LeBron. Do you not agree with this or will you actually try to argue otherwise. The only reason the Cavs lost and Lakers won, again, is because Kobe had better support.
2) Mkay, I'm telling you that's a myth. I don't think LeBron stans would so easily admit that. LBJ is definitely one of the most versatile wing defenders ever however.
3) So I post this
and you respond with a ducktales emoji. Right. Well, I'm here to inform you that this actually happened. It exists. You can watch video of it on youtube, for free. That is one of the greatest single series performances you will ever see.
4) Well Pau led the team in blocks that PS so rarely makes plays is inaccurate. His height & wingspan (+ the way he's being utilized) is the biggest reason he's blocking shots like crazy in Chicago today. He just knows how to use his size well and does a great job of it. His problem defensively is elsewhere, not m2m. And yes Bynum was important too, brought him up already.
Oh so Dwight shrank in the Finals now? Ok why didn't he do that against the Cavaliers? Is it possible that the Lakers were a better matchup for him for reasons that had nothing to do with Kobe or LeBron.
5) Again, no. I've been saying that Shaq was better than Kobe and he had the luxury of playing on a team with another generational player which directly led to three straight championships. I HATE the Shaq carried Kobe argument, and that's what I defend him from more than anything else except maybe the inefficient chucker narrative. You can come to whatever conclusion you want but the truth is I respect both of these players games and just can come to the conclusion that LBJ > Kobe without bias.
Ben.
Heisenbrook
This thread confirms Kobe stans, dumbest stans OAT 
Stack Money
All Star
Of course my response to your long ass posts will be long itself cause I gotta break down your bullshyt, the post of yours I quoted first was short and my response was short you were the first one who started makin 15,000 word novels and you just double posted 2 titangraphs of nonsense so you the one who's really catchin feelins here.
@ you desperately taggin nikkas to co-sign your bullshyt, your actions in here prove you on LeBron's dikk more than anyone so stop lyin. YOU just can't comprehend people usin objective reasonin to take Kobe in this comparison, you done got irate bytchin at me in these books you writin like its gonna change somethin you wastin your time clown.You weren't accountin for his failures in your pieces of stats that you posted you were only focusin on a game 7 or last minute of a game, I don't need to post videos of his chokes cause everyone remembers them well and you can't trounce shyt cause he's had very few "legendary" performances which is why people don't consider him on that Jordan/Kobe level and why you so upset in here. The Peyton Manning analogy is perfect and one others have used LeBron has consistently had the best record in the conference/league yet only has 2 rings to show for it that Wade helped him get nikka STILL hasn't won in Cleveland, the only people who cry about the ring argument in football are people who are fans of QBs that don't have rings or can't measure up to QBs wit more rings and obviously you stan inferior QBs the way you stan inferior B-ball players.
If the role players were enough to help him win the most games in the league in the regular season they were enough to win a championship wit YOU'RE not connectin that there's no difference between the 2, in true stan fashion you tryna give him sole credit for winnin 60+ games and have the audacity to downtalk his teammates when even he would tell you he couldn't do it without him which just further proves how much of a slurper you really are. The Cavs durin his first run took several seasons to become elite defensively and even then they weren't that good cause the Spurs showed him what a TRULY elite defensive team is, Kobe's teams have been better defensively and he helped anchor them so you CAN say that about him he was actually able to hang wit the Spurs and not get swept which is more than YOU can say for your man LeBron. He had all that and more in Miami so miss me wit that whiny poor LeBron argument, he had Bosh who was better than Pau Wade who was better than Odom and he actually did have Shaq who even tho he was at the end of his career was still better than most Centers in the league. I already proved how the 06 Cavs were better than the 06 Lakers their record was better apparently YOU glossed over that and are in full denial mode, the 07 Cavs were far from the worst team to ever make the Finals thats just hyperbole from a LeBron stan to make him look better which is why people say he's the most overrated player in history.
1) The fact you tryna give credit to Fisher and Tyronn Lue for guardin AI and T-Mac shows the depth of your Kobe hate/LeBron stannin, Fisher wasn't that great a defender and Lue sucked Kobe was the best one on one defender they had and everyone knows Shaq wasn't exactly Duncan on D even those analysts who are ex players/coaches you throw shade at say as elite as he was offensively he was much weaker on D so that rim protector argument don't hold weight. Shaq could swat some shots and ruin a lesser player's attempts but wasn't that effective against elites like AI and T-Mac, and Kobe back then could lock players down if he was on an island you prolly a youngin and don't remember that explainin your LeBron stannin.
I flat out said what I meant either you playin dumb or genuinely are dumb if you not sure what I meant, when other teams like the Spurs had big men keepin Shaq from droppin 40 and Duncan was able to score as much as Shaq did Kobe was the one that the Lakers had to score more than anyone else on the other team helpin them win since the team had no one to cancel out Kobe's scorin and slow him down. In the Finals the Sixers had AI to make Kobe use energy at the other end chasin him around meanin he didn't have as much energy to spend on offense so Shaq was the one that provided the extra scorin and since the Sixers had no answer for Shaq he gave the Lakers the advantage that time, and everyone knows Kobe was an elite defender back then so AI got no easy looks he was just a superstar and one of the best in the league so he still was able to get his same wit T-Mac. You tryna use their success to downtalk Kobe but they woulda dropped 60 if he wasn't there, and Kobe put up alot against them too but of course you'd ignore that since it doesn't fit your narrative.
You low key talkin about carryin you might not be usin those words but you sayin it in other ways like you doin now, Shaq bein better isn't a fact otherwise people wouldn't have debated it and still debate it til this day so obviously there wasn't a clear distinction between best and second best your problem is you arrogantly state your opinions as a fact like every other stan does. Kobe arguably was the best player on the team and in the league THAT'S a fact, and LeBron wasn't the best player on the Heat he had the privilege of playin wit Wade.
2) You think everyone was better than Kobe you have to be a hater not to see that it's not a definite fact that Duncan was better, but again you always state your opinions as fact so I'm not upset. You clearly aren't a Kobe fan so drop the pretense you simply appreciate his game but you not a fan, you are blinded to reality by thinkin that LBJ/Duncan are better and I didn't say you have to think he's GOAT to be a fan but when you spinnin shyt not usin logic and typin up novels in back to back posts tryna convince someone he's inferior you obviously aren't a fan.
3) Shaq bein so big meant when those smaller players hacked him it wasn't truly "takin a beatin" in the way you implyin he wasn't tired from gettin slapped its not like they were literally hangin on his back every possession, shootin 18 foot jumpers is physically tougher especially when you runnin the floor on every possession and chasin around fast guards on D. So now you tryna use Shaq's lack of conditionin in his favor spinnin him not bein fresher as if its more impressive what he did than what Kobe did, thats exactly what I'm talkin about anyone that reaches like that ain't a fan and just has an agenda against Kobe in your case your agenda is LeBron
Whether YOU want to accept this or not Mutombo wasn't the same player he was before the Sixers, he was still great but it wasn't like Shaq was facin prime Mutombo who woulda done a better job defendin him. The fact that Duncan could score wit Shaq wasn't enough cause Kobe was the difference maker like I was sayin, Kobe was able to shake double teams when they came and bein faster could avoid them altogether.
4) Kobe had way more assists throughout the postseason and in the last 2 games of the Finals even put up double digit rebounds, yes Kobe had the same level of dominance as them every highlight of Kobe contains a ton of plays at the rim he was a great finisher. There you go again straight lyin in order to downtalk Kobe he got that reputation because of the reality that he was a great shooter way better than LeBron but you don't wanna face facts, you tryna low key insult him by basically sayin he was good at everythin/great at nothin (which again shows you lyin about bein a fan) but alot of those things he was actually great at.
You the one who keep bringin up that graphic cause it has you pissed, you just can't pretend those numbers weren't real because it doesn't fit your narrative the only reason I posted the graphic was to prove you Kobe haters wrong about him bein inferior to Shaq they wouldn't have even MADE the finals if it wasn't for Kobe's performances in the playoffs. Again the only reason he didn't lead them in scorin is cause in the finals the Lakers went more thru Shaq since he had the advantage, in the West playoffs Kobe had the advantage so the Lakers went thru him which is why he lead them in scorin in the West playoffs.
PER isn't a real stat only people wit shytty arguments try to go to that cause the REAL stats don't support their bullshyt, the actual stats like the ones in that graphic you so desperate to discredit prove Kobe was the more dominant player and the eye test proves Kobe was more dominant too YOU just aren't willin to accept the truth. Ironic you talkin bout usin ring count logic as a crutch when you usin a made up stat as a crutch you don't even have anythin thats actually used by the NBA to support your feeble argument, the graphic I posted and most of the stats show Kobe was better than both Shaq and especially LeBron you saw them when you went lookin for good LeBron numbers which is why you scrambled for half stats like game 7/4th Quarter wit 2 minutes to go cause the complete stats show LeBron is inferior.
@ sayin Wade wasn't much better than cluckhead Odom, shyt like that makes you lose all credibility bendin over backwards to discredit the help LeBron had in Miami. Wade and Bosh were All Stars and Wade played like Wade the first championship even when he was playin hurt he still had great numbers, don't make an ass out of yourself by assumin I just didn't feel like breakin that bullshyt down but the Heat role players were better especially Ray Allen who was an All Star too. I don't need to provide you wit shyt since you've already shown you don't listen to reason anyway, Kobe had a weaker supportin cast than LeBron and if it wasn't worth a discussion you wouldn't be typin up books discussin it dikkhead. You say you like your arguments complete yet you conveniently leave out certain stats that make LeBron look bad/Kobe look good so clearly you don't care about makin complete arguments, and @ you admittin I hurt your little feelins so you lashed out like a female wit a weak insult on some immature tit for tat shyt obviously you did get mad over this and you say I'M irritatin yet when I log on I see you posted 2 new books for me to read and respond to.
Everyone knows Wade was Batman their first championship only you LeBron cocksuckers try to say otherwise, even when Wade was hurt he was still Batman which is why they only won 1 more time cause he couldn't carry your man further thats reality that for obvious reasons YOU aren't willin to accept. It doesn't matter where you think championships should be used as a complete measurin stick your opinion is irrelevant and doesn't change the fact that in basketball its used all the time and always will be used so get over it, all this bytchin and moanin from you is whats nonsense cause rings matter and are the main part of arguments whether you like it or not. The fact you've gone to such lengths to defend Lebron show you are biased no one goes this hard for someone they unbiased about, you initially jumpin outta nowhere wit a novel you wrote at work in response to a paragraph from me is pure stan shyt. Players are not more biased than you cause outside of Mo Williams no one defends LeBrons nuts harder, when it comes to how difficult certain things are in basketball what takes more skill and who deserves more respect players are far more credible than a random slurper.
Look at you wax poetic about your man
you go out of your way to talk about him like he's the greatest player ever then you wonder why you have no credibility. Kobe carried more influence on his teams than LeBron LBJ doesn't even have respect among his peers you see it wit the way role players on opposin teams talk shyt to/about him, LeBron's defenses were rarely ever a top shelf defense and he never locked people down like Kobe did early in his career again LeBron let his man win Finals MVP in back to back years which is why Kobe's a better defender than LeBron ever was cause you can't say that for Kobe. The 2011 ECF was in "recent years" funny how you say he was elite then yet when talkin bout the last 2 Finals his D suddenly slipped, wipe ya mouth off nikka.
Stack Money
All Star
Onto Chapter 2 of your book, the only joke is LeBron bein considered for Finals MVP on the losin team. Andre was LeBron's man yet he got off and was able to keep the Warriors in the game when Chef Curry wasn't cookin, Curry was already "stopped" when Iggy was scorin don't try to spin this too in order to help LeBron. Kawhi was TWICE the player LeBron was in the 14 Finals he shut LeBron down on D then went and got his on offense LeBron couldn't even stop him, he was the reason his team won in the first place you've officially reached full dikkrider mode lettin all facts go out the window.
The fact you think LeBron does anythin at the level of Jordan let alone Kobe speaks volumes about how high his dikk is up your ass, the sentence "LBJ has such a vast sample size of dominance that there's no shortage of instances to prove his greatness." is a textbook stan statement if I've ever heard one you're reachin focussin on his "greatness" without acknowledgin his many failures when he has a ton of them the nikka is 2-4 in the Finals for Christ's sake and that doesn't even count his failures in the East playoffs.Magic's play wasn't terrible that game the whole reason everyone killed him are those instances thats why no one even back then brought up the rest of the game when gettin on him, they knew he was better than that they held him up to a different standard if that was any other player they wouldn't have gotten killed the way he did. You claim LeBron is supposed to be on that level too yet you cryin about what you THINK I would do if he was in that situation, I don't put him on Magic's level I already accept that he's not clutch and he's had far worse moments than missin a couple FTs and turnin the ball over once he had entire games like that so it wouldn't even be surprisin if he did that. It's obvious that YOU'RE holdin everyone else to a standard and ignorin those instances wit LeBron cause if you weren't such a stan you'd already know he had those same type of "Tragic Johnson" moments thru his career, and prime is prime Kobe was still in it it was just the last few years of it the injuries the last couple seasons are why he's a shell of himself.
1) If I didn't know any better I'd say YOU were just trollin but I've seen you Lebron stans in action so I know sadly you're serious, accordin to your own arguments LeBron was in his defensive prime at that point so he shoulda shut at least one of those Magic players down or since he was "the anchor of the defense" as you claim led his team to stop the Magic from beastin on offense but he didn't so Kobe played superior which is why not only his team won but he got Finals MVP.
2) Its painfully obvious now that its a myth but his stans used to throw that argument around, again that Magic team was full of wing players so if he was so great at defendin the wing they wouldn't have rained 3s the way they did.
3)
You didn't just post that you also said "Cavs lost because they didn't have the support around Bron that Kobe did. Kobe didn't do anything that LBJ didn't do himself if not better." which is ducktales. And lol at you "informin" me of anythin about LeBron, at this point I wouldn't believe you if you said LeBron was black.4) So now you sayin defense is just blocks
any tall guy is gonna get blocks but he let other Centers back him down and score on him too much that was his problem and why he was soft, Bynum didn't have that problem which is why I said he was the best big man defensively. And Dwight shrank in the Finals and not against the Cavs cause he SOFT and like all soft players they shrink when the pressure is the greatest, you bein a LeBron stan should already know this.
5) Again Kobe was better than Shaq as most now know and Shaq had the luxury of playin on a team wit another generational player himself which directly led to 3 straight championships, but no matter how much you claim to respect his game you bein a LeBron tot can't come to the conclusion that Kobe > LeBron without bias.
Oh and
@Stack Money
There's nothing objective about saying Wade needs to be LBJ's batman to win a title or any of the nonsensical stuff you're spewing in a clear attempt to downplay James in an effort to elevate Kobe. Your opinions are obviously being influenced by personal admiration by Kobe and an apparent dislike for James, and a person with objectivity would approach this topic in a much different fashion rather than using "U mad" meme's in every post.
The fact that you responded at all to that initial short post shows how much this topics affects you personally, clearly. My first and second reply were about four paragraphs long, and then it just escalated as your points made less and less sense. Regardless, it takes two to have a discussion here and if you're making the exact same effort that I am.
LeBron's postseason averages account for his postseason mishaps. That's the point of averages, to get a complete picture of a large sample size of data rather than highlighting isolated incidents which is what you're making the mistake of doing. I did not just include just game 7's, but elimination games as well. Circumstances where his team is either advancing or going home. Is there a single more pressure packed situation in this league? No. So why not use that as a barometer for player "clutchness". He performs well in those situations which is an indication that he performs well under pressure. Not sure what your issue is with the last couple minutes of a game in a playoff contest, and I've referenced his dominant averages as well so you don't have a leg to stand on when you say he's been below his standards in the playoffs.
Well this is the problem. Using your flawed memory to trounce actual evidence I've provided in video and statistical format. To say he's had very few legendary performances is silly, he's one of the greatest ever in the playoffs with a laundry list of dominant performances and you've yet to disprove this point aside from half complete statements and falsehoods.
No, the Manning analogy is poor. He has a 96.5 passer rating in the regular season that drops down to 88.5 in the playoffs. In the year he won the super bowl manning threw 7 interceptions to 3 touchdowns. That's not LeBron. There is nothing about him that declines so dramatically.
Postseason basketball is an entirely different animal from the regular season. Those role players did not play as effectively (or better yet, perform even better as stars should do in the playoffs) against teams who had ample amount of time to prepare for the Cavaliers. Never gave him sole credit for the 60 wins, but because he was the most influential player on both ends of the court for the Cavaliers he obviously deserves an enormous share of the credit for their success.
Cavs were the 4th ranked defense in 2007. Not sure how that's not that good, Spurs being the very best doesn't take away from how strong they were on that end of the court largely due to LBJ. Kobe did help, but unlike LeBron he never actually anchored and been the best defender on an elite defense. You That's a pretty clear difference between the two. Kobe was able to hang with the Spurs in the early 2000's in large part thanks to his support, which included Shaquille O'Neal. Can't just pretend as though his teammates didn't play a large factor into LA's success against San Antonio. Chris Bosh was absolutely not better than Pau Gasol and as a supposed Lakers fan I'd expect you to know better than that, Wade was often injured and did not live up to his reputation in LBJ's final two seasons with Miami. I'm sure Odom would've been more useful for Miami in key situations. Don't try to say he had Shaq with a straight face, he was 37 years old and a complete shell of himself. '06 Cavs record being better does not mean LBJ's support was better. Go ahead and explain how that Cavs team wasn't one of the worst to make the Finals. Fivethirtyeight had an outstanding piece on who the worst supporting casts in Finals history were, and that '07 team ranked right below his '15 team of recent season.
Where This Year’s Cavs Rank Among LeBron’s NBA Finals Supporting Casts
1) I stated that Fisher & Lue guarded Iverson in order to show that Kobe wasn't spending his entire time on the floor chasing him. There were others on the team giving him help with the assignment. Both were good defenders for their positions, and while Kobe certainly was the best perimeter defender on the team they both gave their contributions as well.
Shaq's issue defensively was against the P&R, not as a rim protector the man was very strong there. No, Kobe could not lock those players down on an island. You aren't appreciating how great they are at creating their own looks against individual defense. Your point about Duncan answering Shaq still doesn't make any sense. Whether an opposing team is able to match a player's scoring output with another similar positional player, that doesn't take away from that player's actual production on the floor and TD being able to score had no influence on Shaq's play. Like I said and you ignored, if you replaced him with Bill Russell the result wouldn't have differed. And there was no other team in the league aside from SAS who could use that same strategy on Shaq.
Yet Kobe locks his man down on an island, right? Yes, superstar scorers are able to get theirs regardless of the defense you play on them. Thats what makes them superstars. The object of defense against an on ball player is merely to make their attempt as difficult as possible. Problem being that superstars are accustomed to and consistently are able to hit high degree of difficulty shots. And let me ask this: Was anyone on the Bucks responsible for locking down Allen Iverson? Because he played far worse against them than LA averaging more attempts than points. AI's performance against the Lakers was his 2nd best of the postseason.
For the 3rd time, I'm not talking about carrying. You have been the one using that term to refer to Wade. What I'm saying is that Shaq was better than Kobe, and to discount that in the "5>2" narrative is idioc. The general consensus is actually that Shaq was better than Kobe, not sure where you're getting that they two are close.
Its insane that you can suggest this and think Kobe/Shaq is an argument.
2) Explain why its a definite fact that TD is better than Kobe. Go ahead. I already gave you my reasoning and now you're just getting butthurt over it. In reality, Duncan & LeBron both have extremely strong arguments over Bryant as players. You just need to learn how the accept that.
3) No. His size didn't make him impervious wear & tear, clearly. Every game for him consisted of getting hacked. That takes a toll on your and any type of physical blow will drain energy from you over the course of a game. That's jsut a fact. Shooting a jumpshot is not more physically straining than going into the teeth of a defense and trying to finish over and through big men. Shaq had to run the floor as well which is even more difficult for him by comparison. Shaq's relative lack of conditioning blows up your argument that he was at an advantage while Bryant had to exert himself to exhaustion guarding Iverson. The two were at similar energy states throughout the series. Shaq just flat out played better.
A younger Mutumbo gets smashed by Shaq too. At no point was he able to do anything with Shaq in a playoff series. Already acknowledged how important Kobe was to the series, but that it has zero bearing on who the better player was. Shaq was able to blow up double teams as well with either brute force that usually resulted in a trip to the line or smart passes out to the perimeter for open 3's. It worked to the Lakers favor better if Shaq was doubled team as opposed to Kobe.
4) I'll just post this again in case you didn't read it
"Kobe had 1.3 more apg in 2000, 2.9 in 2001 and 1.8 in 2002"
That's not way more assists and to refer to the last two game of the Finals doesn't make much sense. Its cool that kobe sometimes put up double digit rebounds but Shaq actually averaged that. Sure, Kobe was a great finisher. Just not legendary like Jordan, LBJ and Shaq. He never approached their prime atr conversion percentages. I'm talking upwards of 70% atr on huge volume. This is an actual fact. I said Kobe's strength was that he was skilled in virtually every area as a scorer rather than rely on one specific great element to dominate, which is true. That doesn't really take away from him since all together it makes him a dominant scorer.
The numbers from the graphic were real, but incomplete as it exempts the entirety of the NBA Finals. It does not take into consideration the entire postseason, nor does it take into account defense/rebounding. No shyt they wouldn't have made the Finals without Kobe, again you're missing the point. and the fact that Shaq had the advantage in far more situations than Kobe isn't an excuse at all. That's a testament to how damn hard it is to match up with dominant big men. There's reason why you see so many bigs crowding the top of all time lists.
There's nothing objective about saying Wade needs to be LBJ's batman to win a title or any of the nonsensical stuff you're spewing in a clear attempt to downplay James in an effort to elevate Kobe. Your opinions are obviously being influenced by personal admiration by Kobe and an apparent dislike for James, and a person with objectivity would approach this topic in a much different fashion rather than using "U mad" meme's in every post.
The fact that you responded at all to that initial short post shows how much this topics affects you personally, clearly. My first and second reply were about four paragraphs long, and then it just escalated as your points made less and less sense. Regardless, it takes two to have a discussion here and if you're making the exact same effort that I am.
LeBron's postseason averages account for his postseason mishaps. That's the point of averages, to get a complete picture of a large sample size of data rather than highlighting isolated incidents which is what you're making the mistake of doing. I did not just include just game 7's, but elimination games as well. Circumstances where his team is either advancing or going home. Is there a single more pressure packed situation in this league? No. So why not use that as a barometer for player "clutchness". He performs well in those situations which is an indication that he performs well under pressure. Not sure what your issue is with the last couple minutes of a game in a playoff contest, and I've referenced his dominant averages as well so you don't have a leg to stand on when you say he's been below his standards in the playoffs.
Well this is the problem. Using your flawed memory to trounce actual evidence I've provided in video and statistical format. To say he's had very few legendary performances is silly, he's one of the greatest ever in the playoffs with a laundry list of dominant performances and you've yet to disprove this point aside from half complete statements and falsehoods.
No, the Manning analogy is poor. He has a 96.5 passer rating in the regular season that drops down to 88.5 in the playoffs. In the year he won the super bowl manning threw 7 interceptions to 3 touchdowns. That's not LeBron. There is nothing about him that declines so dramatically.
Postseason basketball is an entirely different animal from the regular season. Those role players did not play as effectively (or better yet, perform even better as stars should do in the playoffs) against teams who had ample amount of time to prepare for the Cavaliers. Never gave him sole credit for the 60 wins, but because he was the most influential player on both ends of the court for the Cavaliers he obviously deserves an enormous share of the credit for their success.
Cavs were the 4th ranked defense in 2007. Not sure how that's not that good, Spurs being the very best doesn't take away from how strong they were on that end of the court largely due to LBJ. Kobe did help, but unlike LeBron he never actually anchored and been the best defender on an elite defense. You That's a pretty clear difference between the two. Kobe was able to hang with the Spurs in the early 2000's in large part thanks to his support, which included Shaquille O'Neal. Can't just pretend as though his teammates didn't play a large factor into LA's success against San Antonio. Chris Bosh was absolutely not better than Pau Gasol and as a supposed Lakers fan I'd expect you to know better than that, Wade was often injured and did not live up to his reputation in LBJ's final two seasons with Miami. I'm sure Odom would've been more useful for Miami in key situations. Don't try to say he had Shaq with a straight face, he was 37 years old and a complete shell of himself. '06 Cavs record being better does not mean LBJ's support was better. Go ahead and explain how that Cavs team wasn't one of the worst to make the Finals. Fivethirtyeight had an outstanding piece on who the worst supporting casts in Finals history were, and that '07 team ranked right below his '15 team of recent season.
Where This Year’s Cavs Rank Among LeBron’s NBA Finals Supporting Casts
1) I stated that Fisher & Lue guarded Iverson in order to show that Kobe wasn't spending his entire time on the floor chasing him. There were others on the team giving him help with the assignment. Both were good defenders for their positions, and while Kobe certainly was the best perimeter defender on the team they both gave their contributions as well.
Shaq's issue defensively was against the P&R, not as a rim protector the man was very strong there. No, Kobe could not lock those players down on an island. You aren't appreciating how great they are at creating their own looks against individual defense. Your point about Duncan answering Shaq still doesn't make any sense. Whether an opposing team is able to match a player's scoring output with another similar positional player, that doesn't take away from that player's actual production on the floor and TD being able to score had no influence on Shaq's play. Like I said and you ignored, if you replaced him with Bill Russell the result wouldn't have differed. And there was no other team in the league aside from SAS who could use that same strategy on Shaq.
Yet Kobe locks his man down on an island, right? Yes, superstar scorers are able to get theirs regardless of the defense you play on them. Thats what makes them superstars. The object of defense against an on ball player is merely to make their attempt as difficult as possible. Problem being that superstars are accustomed to and consistently are able to hit high degree of difficulty shots. And let me ask this: Was anyone on the Bucks responsible for locking down Allen Iverson? Because he played far worse against them than LA averaging more attempts than points. AI's performance against the Lakers was his 2nd best of the postseason.
For the 3rd time, I'm not talking about carrying. You have been the one using that term to refer to Wade. What I'm saying is that Shaq was better than Kobe, and to discount that in the "5>2" narrative is idioc. The general consensus is actually that Shaq was better than Kobe, not sure where you're getting that they two are close.
Its insane that you can suggest this and think Kobe/Shaq is an argument.
2) Explain why its a definite fact that TD is better than Kobe. Go ahead. I already gave you my reasoning and now you're just getting butthurt over it. In reality, Duncan & LeBron both have extremely strong arguments over Bryant as players. You just need to learn how the accept that.
3) No. His size didn't make him impervious wear & tear, clearly. Every game for him consisted of getting hacked. That takes a toll on your and any type of physical blow will drain energy from you over the course of a game. That's jsut a fact. Shooting a jumpshot is not more physically straining than going into the teeth of a defense and trying to finish over and through big men. Shaq had to run the floor as well which is even more difficult for him by comparison. Shaq's relative lack of conditioning blows up your argument that he was at an advantage while Bryant had to exert himself to exhaustion guarding Iverson. The two were at similar energy states throughout the series. Shaq just flat out played better.
A younger Mutumbo gets smashed by Shaq too. At no point was he able to do anything with Shaq in a playoff series. Already acknowledged how important Kobe was to the series, but that it has zero bearing on who the better player was. Shaq was able to blow up double teams as well with either brute force that usually resulted in a trip to the line or smart passes out to the perimeter for open 3's. It worked to the Lakers favor better if Shaq was doubled team as opposed to Kobe.
4) I'll just post this again in case you didn't read it
"Kobe had 1.3 more apg in 2000, 2.9 in 2001 and 1.8 in 2002"
That's not way more assists and to refer to the last two game of the Finals doesn't make much sense. Its cool that kobe sometimes put up double digit rebounds but Shaq actually averaged that. Sure, Kobe was a great finisher. Just not legendary like Jordan, LBJ and Shaq. He never approached their prime atr conversion percentages. I'm talking upwards of 70% atr on huge volume. This is an actual fact. I said Kobe's strength was that he was skilled in virtually every area as a scorer rather than rely on one specific great element to dominate, which is true. That doesn't really take away from him since all together it makes him a dominant scorer.
The numbers from the graphic were real, but incomplete as it exempts the entirety of the NBA Finals. It does not take into consideration the entire postseason, nor does it take into account defense/rebounding. No shyt they wouldn't have made the Finals without Kobe, again you're missing the point. and the fact that Shaq had the advantage in far more situations than Kobe isn't an excuse at all. That's a testament to how damn hard it is to match up with dominant big men. There's reason why you see so many bigs crowding the top of all time lists.
@Stack Money
"x advanced stat is a made up statistic" is the go to response from people who don't understand how advanced stats work. All they do is paint a better picture of the game than any standard box score metric would.
But if want some "real stat"s. Kobe's prime postseason stats (from '00-'12): 27.7ppg 5.4rpg 5.1apg 1.5spg 0.6bpg 45 FG% (54 TS%, this takes into account 3's) 41mpg
LeBron's career postseason stats:
28.2ppg 8.8rpg 6.7apg 1.7spg 0.9bpg 47 FG% (56 TS%) 42mpg
Didn't include Kobe pre 2000, but if you wanted to include them feel free to do so as it only makes his averages worse.
I am very interested as to how you'll manage to make these statistics look fraudulent. I've given you "real stats", advanced stats (fake apparently), clutch stats (GW attempts, game 7, elimination) and actual basketball descriptions describing their play. Anything else you need?
He really wasn't better than Odom. Wade was that bad for stretches in the '13 and '14 postseason, clearly hampered by a knee injury that zapped his explosiveness and his effort level defensively looked horrid. Definitely on another level in '11 and '12, but not the other half of LBJ's stay in Miami. Odom would've provided better defense, the versatility Miami prides themselves on at the big man positions and better perimeter shooting.
Ray Allen was never an all star with Miami. Not sure what you mean by this, unless you're seriously implying that he was an all star caliber player at the time.
If by everyone you mean people with a brain defect, sure. I'd like you to explain in what way Wade was the batman of Miami, considering he averaged 6 less points on worse efficiency, less shot attempts, less assists and wasn't as good defensively. Wade carried no one in Miami's championship runs, and you are incapable of explaining such aside from your memory. You're a little too obsessed with my post length, catch me anywhere else on the forum in a debate and you'll see this exact same thing. This isn't new for me, and its 99.9% entire reason I post on this forum. To discuss the game at great length.
Yes the ring argument is used very frequently in this game, which is why I so adamantly disagree with it. Championships shouldn't be a measure of how good an actual player is, and fans need to start paying attention to other circumstances that contribute to championship discrepancies between two great players.
In what way does Kobe carry more influence on his teams than LBJ. Statistically, LBJ's teams have fared worse offensively & defensively when he's left the court as compared to Kobe. He's the much better playmaker, rebounder, defender and scores at a volume that rivals Kobe with even better efficiency.
LBJ was the best player in the Finals, so there's nothing wrong with him getting some level of FMVP consideration. LBJ did not play good defense that Finals, sure. I'm not high on his defense at all in the past two seasons. Thats irrelevant here as Kobe was far from a consistent defensive stallworth post the early LA years, and it doesn't take away from the fact that he was dominant offensively. Don't think you get what I mean by the Cavs selling out to stop Curry. They doubled him every single P&R possession and he requires such attention regardless of how he actually shoots because he can heat up at any point in the game. As such, Iggy found himself often wide open by design of the Cavs defense. Maybe you didn't notice when Mozgov, a seven foot slow footed center, was seriously defending him.
LBJ averaged 28ppg on 57% shooting in the '14 finals. Kawhi shut no one down and was the 2nd best player in the Finals to LeBron James.
LBJ pretty clearly finishes, rebounds and passes at a level as good or better than Jordan. As a LBJ hater, you'll likely try to downplay this reality however. LBJ is 2-4 in the Finals largely because his support has not been there. The past two finals in particular he was the obvious best player on the court, but didn't get the help necessary to come out on top. I don't dodge his failures, you just aggrandize them and completely fail to appreciate the fact that his triumphs overwhelm the bad moments.
Its pretty amusing to watch you make excuses for Magic and then crush LBJ when he's been the better playoff performer throughout his career. He did play terrible in that game, and its because he's held to a different standard that a 5-14 performance with 7 turnovers is terrible, and for you not to see that is pretty incredible.
1 & 2)Because LeBron can't guard all of their shooters at the same time. Orlando generated a lot of offense away from LeBron, and forced serious mismatches by playing Lewis & Turk at the four who got whatever look they wanted. Turk also did a great job driving and shooting over smaller Cavs defenders, same with Lewis whenever he found himself on someone smaller.
Turk actually played even better against LA, averaging 18 on 49 FG% and 43.8 3PT%. Up from 39% from three against the Cavs. Rashard still shot lights out from three in the FInals, and the major difference from the two series was Dwight Howard.
3) So we're just going to ignore that LBJ played better than Kobe in the '09 ECF/Finals respectively. Alright.
4) You said Pau makes no plays defensively and I corrected you by stating in what ways he made plays. He is a good m2m defender. Sure, Bynum was their best big man defensively, not sure how that detracts from the point that Kobe had more support..
So you're saying a big man that led the league in rebounds, blocks and dunks is soft. Ok then, thats another misguided opinion not that I expect any different from you. You do realize he played through a torn labrum in his shoulder for your sorry Lakers right, this after coming off back surgery in the offseason.
5) Who are these most people who believe Kobe was better than Shaq. Go ahead and find them for me. If you made a poll on this or any high traffic forum I'm pretty damn sure the consensus will be Shaq > Kobe on those championship Lakers.
"x advanced stat is a made up statistic" is the go to response from people who don't understand how advanced stats work. All they do is paint a better picture of the game than any standard box score metric would.
But if want some "real stat"s. Kobe's prime postseason stats (from '00-'12): 27.7ppg 5.4rpg 5.1apg 1.5spg 0.6bpg 45 FG% (54 TS%, this takes into account 3's) 41mpg
LeBron's career postseason stats:
28.2ppg 8.8rpg 6.7apg 1.7spg 0.9bpg 47 FG% (56 TS%) 42mpg
Didn't include Kobe pre 2000, but if you wanted to include them feel free to do so as it only makes his averages worse.
I am very interested as to how you'll manage to make these statistics look fraudulent. I've given you "real stats", advanced stats (fake apparently), clutch stats (GW attempts, game 7, elimination) and actual basketball descriptions describing their play. Anything else you need?
He really wasn't better than Odom. Wade was that bad for stretches in the '13 and '14 postseason, clearly hampered by a knee injury that zapped his explosiveness and his effort level defensively looked horrid. Definitely on another level in '11 and '12, but not the other half of LBJ's stay in Miami. Odom would've provided better defense, the versatility Miami prides themselves on at the big man positions and better perimeter shooting.
Ray Allen was never an all star with Miami. Not sure what you mean by this, unless you're seriously implying that he was an all star caliber player at the time.
If by everyone you mean people with a brain defect, sure. I'd like you to explain in what way Wade was the batman of Miami, considering he averaged 6 less points on worse efficiency, less shot attempts, less assists and wasn't as good defensively. Wade carried no one in Miami's championship runs, and you are incapable of explaining such aside from your memory. You're a little too obsessed with my post length, catch me anywhere else on the forum in a debate and you'll see this exact same thing. This isn't new for me, and its 99.9% entire reason I post on this forum. To discuss the game at great length.
Yes the ring argument is used very frequently in this game, which is why I so adamantly disagree with it. Championships shouldn't be a measure of how good an actual player is, and fans need to start paying attention to other circumstances that contribute to championship discrepancies between two great players.
In what way does Kobe carry more influence on his teams than LBJ. Statistically, LBJ's teams have fared worse offensively & defensively when he's left the court as compared to Kobe. He's the much better playmaker, rebounder, defender and scores at a volume that rivals Kobe with even better efficiency.
LBJ was the best player in the Finals, so there's nothing wrong with him getting some level of FMVP consideration. LBJ did not play good defense that Finals, sure. I'm not high on his defense at all in the past two seasons. Thats irrelevant here as Kobe was far from a consistent defensive stallworth post the early LA years, and it doesn't take away from the fact that he was dominant offensively. Don't think you get what I mean by the Cavs selling out to stop Curry. They doubled him every single P&R possession and he requires such attention regardless of how he actually shoots because he can heat up at any point in the game. As such, Iggy found himself often wide open by design of the Cavs defense. Maybe you didn't notice when Mozgov, a seven foot slow footed center, was seriously defending him.
LBJ averaged 28ppg on 57% shooting in the '14 finals. Kawhi shut no one down and was the 2nd best player in the Finals to LeBron James.
.
LBJ pretty clearly finishes, rebounds and passes at a level as good or better than Jordan. As a LBJ hater, you'll likely try to downplay this reality however. LBJ is 2-4 in the Finals largely because his support has not been there. The past two finals in particular he was the obvious best player on the court, but didn't get the help necessary to come out on top. I don't dodge his failures, you just aggrandize them and completely fail to appreciate the fact that his triumphs overwhelm the bad moments.
Its pretty amusing to watch you make excuses for Magic and then crush LBJ when he's been the better playoff performer throughout his career. He did play terrible in that game, and its because he's held to a different standard that a 5-14 performance with 7 turnovers is terrible, and for you not to see that is pretty incredible.
1 & 2)Because LeBron can't guard all of their shooters at the same time. Orlando generated a lot of offense away from LeBron, and forced serious mismatches by playing Lewis & Turk at the four who got whatever look they wanted. Turk also did a great job driving and shooting over smaller Cavs defenders, same with Lewis whenever he found himself on someone smaller.
Turk actually played even better against LA, averaging 18 on 49 FG% and 43.8 3PT%. Up from 39% from three against the Cavs. Rashard still shot lights out from three in the FInals, and the major difference from the two series was Dwight Howard.
3) So we're just going to ignore that LBJ played better than Kobe in the '09 ECF/Finals respectively. Alright.
4) You said Pau makes no plays defensively and I corrected you by stating in what ways he made plays. He is a good m2m defender. Sure, Bynum was their best big man defensively, not sure how that detracts from the point that Kobe had more support..
So you're saying a big man that led the league in rebounds, blocks and dunks is soft. Ok then, thats another misguided opinion not that I expect any different from you. You do realize he played through a torn labrum in his shoulder for your sorry Lakers right, this after coming off back surgery in the offseason.
5) Who are these most people who believe Kobe was better than Shaq. Go ahead and find them for me. If you made a poll on this or any high traffic forum I'm pretty damn sure the consensus will be Shaq > Kobe on those championship Lakers.
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Stack Money is a pats yankees Cowboys and Duke fan
Oh and Alabama football
Oh and Alabama football
Stack Money
All Star
@ you writin another book, there's alot objective about sayin Wade is the Batman most agree wit it whats not objective is the bullshyt YOU spewin about LeBron havin no help and givin him sole credit for winnin 60+ games. You the one tryna downplay Kobe to elevate LeBron your opinions are obviously influenced by your personal admiration for LeBron and apparent dislike for Kobe, don't catch feelins cause I'm callin you out for bein mad a person wit objectivity would acknowledge the blatant butthurt emanatin from your long rant filled posts.Don't try to spin that too you the last one that can use that argument this is a discussion board dumbass everyone was respondin to posts I simply responded to your bullshyt when I saw it, by your logic the fact YOU responded at all shows how much this topic affects YOU personally. And clearly the fact you responded to one of my short posts wit a long novel shows how much my opinion affected your emotional ass personally, you STILL caught in your feelins unable to let it go now your posts grew and grew as my posts made your blood pressure boil. It doesn't take 2 to make you write novels you did and are doin that yourself cause you're upset, I'm just respondin to your nonsense I'm definitely not makin the same exact effort you are cause I ain't Googlin stats pickin and choosin which ones to post searchin for videos and thinkin of bullshyt excuses to make for LeBron I'm just callin out your weak arguments you prolly spent hours makin your posts I spent minutes makin my replies.You weren't postin averages you literally posted game 7/last 2 minutes makin the mistake of highlightin isolated incidents yourself don't switch up now that I called you out on it, those elimination games still don't account for the rest of the series or any other bad games he had and you know it the fact you singlin out games period shows you not takin all his performances into consideration. Clutchness is more than just the last few minutes or a game 7 it has to do wit entire games and series winnin games as well and everyone knows he's a front runner so his stat paddin when they playin well is gonna make those shytty games look less shytty when his overall numbers are added up and his averages aren't "dominant" you just idolize him and are easily impressed by anythin he does which is why you don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion cause you comin from an emotional stan perspective.
Your problem is you want me to do your homework for you if you weren't such a stan your flawed memory would recall those moments or you would look for it yourself but I'm not as invested in this as you are so I'm not wastin time searchin for shyt to give a random person on The Coli, most people don't consider him one of the greatest ever in the playoffs they'd laugh if you said that and call you a stan just like I am if you claimed he had a laundry list of dominant performances because THAT is a falsehood. The Manning analogy is fittin and many use it, you tryna site LeBron's front runnin stat paddin but when you're allegedly one of the all time greats and win 12+/60+ in the regular season yet come away empty handed in the postseason you're a shrinker a fake GOAT and can be compared to other career losers.
More excuses regular season/postseason same difference when it comes to greats if you TRULY the best since Jordan you'd take a 60+ win team and get a ring not point fingers after losin, again if they were good enough to help you get that many wins they're good enough to get a championship before the playoffs you stans would proclaim he's gonna win it all cause he has help now then when he lost again you'd blame those same players whinin about how he has no help and needs better players. If he was so influential he woulda influenced them to win but he didn't, they scored and played D helpin him get to 60 wins so he doesn't get the lion share of the credit especially when you quick to take credit away from Kobe when he wins.
Those Cavs played in the East and feasted on weak competition when they faced the Spurs they got beat like a drum cause they were up against a TRUE elite defense, Kobe was the best defender on those Lakers he was lockdown back then so thats anchorin an elite defense. YOU can't pretend he didn't play a large part in their success you tryna give the other players more credit than they deserve, ironic since you tryna just pretend LeBron's teammates didn't play a large factor in the Cavs success but when it comes to Kobe suddenly its team ball but when talkin bout LeBron you gas him up. Thats stan shyt, as a Laker fan I know Bosh was better cause he didn't play soft the way I had to witness Gasoft play and I already said Wade bein injured the last 2 seasons is why LBJ only got 1 more ring. Shaq still helped and was an addition bein better than most, and men lie women lie numbers don't the 06 Cavs record speaks for itself they were better get over it. I don't care what some random blogger no one's ever heard of says they prolly LeBron stans like you which is why you go to they site, that Cavs team wasn't even the worse Finals team that decade they were better than the Sixers and Nets we faced.
1) LeBron had teammates helpin him guard players as well so moot point bringin up Kobe's defensive help. There you go again statin your opinion as fact Kobe could definitely lock players down one on one, you just don't get the Duncan point cause you slow him scorin influenced Shaq's play cause he was guardin him he had to exert alot of energy on D and still exert energy tryna get his against Duncan which takes its toll. I ignored your point cause I'm not respondin to all your bullshyt unlike you breakin down each word I type which is why you usin way more effort than I am, Bill Russell is one of the GOATs of course exchangin a GOAT for a GOAT won't make a difference.
Kobe locks most defenders down on an island don't be so literal, AI just had a bad game it happens and unlike LeBron he stepped it up in the Finals when he saw a championship in sight. For the third time you not usin that word but you basically sayin he was carried again you tryna play semantics, to make the Shaq excuse about the "5>2" FACT is idiotic I'm sayin Kobe was better than Shaq and alot of people agree wit that even back then half of Laker fans said Kobe half said Shaq the general consensus wit NBA fans has become Kobe as the years have gone on but you around LeBron stans like yourself so obviously you gonna hear different. Its insane that you don't realize alot of people say Wade was the best and also think Kobe/Shaq isn't an argument, but you a LeBron tot so its not surprisin.
2) I don't need to explain shyt to you you act like most don't say Kobe is better than Duncan, I don't even care about your reasonin so I'm not gettin butthurt over it but clearly you gettin butthurt over me disagreein which is why you demandin that I explain it to you.
Again you statin your biased opinion as fact, in reality Duncan doesn't have that strong of a argument and LeBron has no argument over Kobe as a player, YOU just need to learn to accept that and not write novels whenever someone like me points it out.3) Another proclamation of "thats just a fact" while statin your opinion, his size means its not gonna cause "wear and tear" just gettin hacked you talkin like he AI the nikka was the biggest player in the league some slaps ain't gonna have that effect. You underratin the energy jumpshootin takes Kobe right now can't hit jumpshots the way he used to cause his legs are gone, any player will tell you jumpshots start wit the legs so if you exertin a ton of energy you not gonna have your legs as much as you did at the beginnin of the game. Kobe went thru the teeth of defenses too which is even more difficult for him by comparison, you sound dumb as fukk sayin his lack of conditionin blows up MY argument nah nikka it blows up YOUR argument he wasn't runnin round guardin AI he was guardin Mutombo who had no offense all Shaq had to do is stand under the basket Kobe had far less energy throughout the series which is why Shaq played better. Smarten up.
Younger Mutombo gave Shaq problems just like Dream and other legendary big men of the 90s, Shaq didn't start beastin until they were all gone which people always point out about him. Kobe bein so important to the series has a ton of bearin on who the better player was, once again you just in denial cause it doesn't fit your narrative.
4) Post it all you want it doesn't change anythin, Kobe had way more assists that postseason and referrin to the last 2 games of the Finals makes alot of sense they were both wins and the second one was a closeout game the same thing you get giddy about mentionin wit LeBron but funny how when I mention it about Kobe you shrug it off. Kobe was a legendary finisher homie could attack the basket just like Jordan and could twist his body to avoid contact better than just about anyone, the difficulty in his shots are second to none while LeBron just barrelled thru the lane usin his size to clear the path since players ain't want that collision. Look at you mentionin another "fact", you turn into stat boy when its convenient bringin up random stats no one even looks at but duckin other stats like the plague.
The numbers from the graphic weren't incomplete they were the stats up til the point that they aired durin one of the games, you in no position to talk about incomplete stats when you selected certain stats of LeBron to mention while excludin others. Again you mention defense/reboundin cause that fits your narrative but don't have a problem wit the graphic not depictin assists which Kobe had way more of that same postseason, you're missin the point him havin the advantage is a fact those teams had virtually no big men either they were scrubs or
the only excuse is the one you're makin about big men on all time lists when some of those same big men owned Shaq before the dynasty era.