So you still got guys who think Kyrie better than Wall????

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But Rondo still is a helluva PG IMO,nikka just can't shoot,and that has hurt his career.
He's one of the worst PGs in the league.
I was wrong about Rondo, I can admit that.
This is what I've been trying to get you to see. It isn't about how many areas a player is better at (passing. defending, rebounding etc etc), it's about the role you play, your skillset and what impact you have on the game. This is the trouble you find yourself in every time because you're looking too much on a surface level.
 

Dr. Narcisse

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Kyrie is the better player. People get too caught up in the point guard being a jack of all trades and lose sight of the object of the game. Wall's individual defensive ability does not make him a better basketball player than Kyrie who is one of the most gifted scorers in the league.
This is true.
However, you gotta add that for guys like LeBron it does...lol.

KD's better defensively now. However, years ago people use to use KD being the most gifted scorer as a reason to take him over LeBron despite his versatility.
 

Basaglia

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Dudes are really underrating John Wall.

Kyrie is my favorite player in the league, but Wall is a better assist man and defender. To put at the end of games theatrics as an attribute that dwarfs all others is trash.

So, who Wall gon shut down with this great defense in the playoffs?

Lowry? He gon get 30 on his neck and not fire back.
IT2? He gon get 30 on his nech and not fire back.
Kyrie? Please.

Wall gon fold...as usual.
 

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He's one of the worst PGs in the league.

This is what I've been trying to get you to see. It isn't about how many areas a player is better at (passing. defending, rebounding etc etc), it's about the role you play, your skillset and what impact you have on the game. This is the trouble you find yourself in every time because you're looking too much on a surface level.

But Wall and Rondo are on two totally different levels. It's not even comparable
 

NYC Rebel

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So, who Wall gon shut down with this great defense in the playoffs?

Lowry? He gon get 30 on his neck and not fire back.
IT2? He gon get 30 on his nech and not fire back.
Kyrie? Please.

Wall gon fold...as usual.

Kyrie is my favorite player. I don't know what you're looking for here.

Dudes are underrating Wall. I didn't even compare him to Kyrie.
 

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No when the jack of all trades PG is winning and putting up big numbers that's when it becomes relevant,Kyrie game is not suited to carry a team,you put Kyrie on Wizards right now they wouldn't be3rd place in the East,Kyrie is a scorer,thats it.

How can I predict what would happen if Kyrie were on the Wizards? He's become a much better passer this year and his game is still developing...he'll be 25 soon. Using the Cavs record without Lebron as an indictment on Kyrie is stupid because they're not supposed to play without Lebron. Their entire gameplan revolves around the best player in the league and it happens that Kyrie's skillset is perfect for that.

Why do you think Irving and Lowry keep getting selected to Team USA despite Wall being the best overall defender of the 3? Their shooting and shot creation are more valuable skills than Wall's defense.
 
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That's your typical self created question. My point is that your team has to be good enough to put you in a position to be a closer.
Again, you're insinuating that Kyrie doesn't contribute at a high level throughout the game to get the Cavs to that point of being able to close games. Have you conveniently forgotten all the work that Kyrie did throughout the middles stages of Games 3, 4 and 5 of the Finals? Can you safely say that Wall would be able to provide the same impact on that stage through his playmaking and defense?
I dare you answer MY self created question :

Which team is likely going to be within 3 points of the lead with 2 minutes left in the game...the Nets or the Cavs?

And when you answer that, tell me what is more likely to show up in a nightly basis, a guy who can distribute the ball and play D or a closer?
You claim that Irving is your favorite player and yet you're reducing his game to simply being a closer. And not only that but you're greatly undervaluing the ability to actually close games too - you know when the game slows down to a halt and cherry-picking, transition buckets and defenses taking possessions off is kept at a minimum. It's not as simple as the guy "who can distribute the ball and play D" puts the team in a winning position more often than the closer would (especially given the fact that Wall isn't a great defender, and is wildly inconsistent on that end) when we've seen Wall struggle to actually score in a playoff environment and it's affected his team's offense and all the assists and passing doesn't add up to anything when his team can't buy a bucket.
 

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Again, you're insinuating that Kyrie doesn't contribute at a high level throughout the game to get the Cavs to that point

No I'm not and you're still avoiding my question.

Kyrie contributed at a high level pre Lebron and the Cavs were still a lottery team.

I saw you do this with @FTBS last week. You avoid answering questions and run off at the jibs with your own self created fluff. So I will ask you AGAIN.

I dare you answer MY self created question :

Which team is likely going to be within 3 points of the lead with 2 minutes left in the game...the Nets or the Cavs?

And when you answer that, tell me what is more likely to show up in a nightly basis, a guy who can distribute the ball and play D or a closer?
 

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This is true.
However, you gotta add that for guys like LeBron it does...lol.

KD's better defensively now. However, years ago people use to use KD being the most gifted scorer as a reason to take him over LeBron despite his versatility.

Its kind of a sliding scale positionally. Lebron is the best passing forward of all time while simultaneously being able to be the lead scorer in a game. KD is protecting the rim this year but when it comes down to it are you favoring him defensively over Lebron?

Can your game be measured as more impactful when you can get the stop on one end but can't get the bucket to put your team ahead on the other end? Beal was the one who had to generate offense in the clutch because he has range, Wall is a one-dimensional scorer and everyone knows it.
 
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But Wall and Rondo are on two totally different levels. It's not even comparable
Like I said in that other thread, YOUR REASONING is the same. It doesn't matter if Wall and Rondo are on two different levels, you're using the same logic. It's the same argument in principle, in the OP - better leader, better defender and better playmaker. This is what I'm trying to get you to see, it isn't about how many areas you're better at, it's how much impact you have. If you were to rank players by how well-rounded their games were you wouldn't get an accurate reflection of who has more impact on the game.
 

McPiff

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Michael Jordan could have been the Best point guard ever? Want Proof?

You nikkaz really don't know this shyt.
just like y'all don'-t know rap or hiphop.
Not to mention this shyt been discussed in this shyt this community for twenty years now.


Art Barr

He COULD but he is not. And i doubt he wouldve been able to keep this up for multiple seasons.

Hell he got outplayed by isiah in the playoffs, the same year.

There is a reason why they stopped putting him at pg. Even tho he had a GOAT status run
 
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Wall is better but they are two different PGs. Irving is a scoring assassin. Wall isnt. Wall is the PG you want throughout the game because if all the things he can do but Kyrie is the closer. Once wall learns how to close as a leader and a scorer in these type of games its obvious he is the better player.

Kyrie took over that game by default because Bron was out.
 
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No I'm not and you're still avoiding my question.
I already addressed why the premise of your question is nonsensical.
Kyrie contributed at a high level pre Lebron and the Cavs were still a lottery team.
I'm going to quote myself on this one -
That's because Wall had a better support cast than Kyrie did (before LeBron's return), when he went to the playoffs.

Kyrie's rookie season (age 19) he was running with the corpse of Jamison (2nd option - age 35), the corpse of Parker (age 36), Casspi, Gee and Varejao (who only played 25 games).
Kyrie's second season (age 20 - only played 59 games) he was running with Waiters' bum ass (2nd option - age 21), TT (age 21), Zeller and Gee.
Kyrie's third season (age 21) he was running with Waiters' bum ass again (2nd option), Deng (only played 40 games), TT, Hawes (who only played 27 games)


Meanwhile, Wall had teammates like Ariza, Gortat, Nene and Beal when the Wizards went to the playoffs, and this was when he was 23 and 24. Wall wasn't leading teams anywhere when he was 19, 20 and 21 - the same ages as Kyrie before LeBron returned.
.
They were a lottery team because Kyrie was in his teens to early-20s, playing with a combination of ill-fitting, bottom-of-the-barrel, over-the-hill, injury-riddled and inexperienced talent, not because his style/game wasn't conducive to winning. It's because the team was trash. Give Kyrie right now at age 23/24, players to the equivalent of Ariza, Gortat, Nene in their primes with a legit backcourt partner in Beal and they'd make the playoffs.

You know what Wall was doing at ages 20, 21 and 22? He was in the lottery, because his support cast were garbage. All his 'assisting and defense' didn't mean a cotdamn thing at the end of the day because they were still in the same position those Cavs squads were in.
I saw you do this with @FTBS last week. You avoid answering questions and run off at the jibs with your own self created fluff. So I will ask you AGAIN.
WRONG AGAIN.

It started because he tried to make a claim that the main narrative was around folk getting shytty at LeBron for wanting help (to compete with the Warriors), when the Warriors just added KD six months prior - failing to realize that the actual main narrative was (after the Xmas game between GS and Cleveland) that the Cavs were the better team and how Durant was a "beta" who couldn't beat LeBron, and how Curry is overrated and not better than Irving.

Then of course it was spun into something entirely different after the Warriors blew them out on MLK day and the Cavs had a string of losses.
 
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NYC Rebel

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Yeah, because Samardos and Gees were starting.
Exactly. Which proves my point that you have to have a good enough team around you in order for being a closer to often shine through.

What is the problem here?
 
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