Stateless Society

wheywhey

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A 'stateless' society would pretty much be an even more corporate controlled society where huge corporations with private militaries establish dominance over various territories... which is what we're essentially moving to now in the era of 'multinational corporations'

This is already in place in Central America. They are economic development zones (ZEDs) or charter cities. They are areas in a country that have legal, economic, and political autonomy. They have been very controversial and faced strong opposition. My personal belief is that the immigrant children from Central America were purposely sent to the US in order for the ZEDs to gain international approval and attract businesses.

http://www.thecoli.com/threads/how-...duras-part-i-governance-as-technology.243476/
 

unit321

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Can anyone point me in the direction of literature on how a society without "the state" would function WELL that takes into account:

-the 7 billion + people on Earth
-sociology and psychology and what mechanisms would keep certain human propensities in check (violence, greed, etc)
You can go stateless with a really small population, like a village of 50 people. That's how the primitive peoples of the planet operate. Downside is, no coffee, Internet or TV.
 

Ian1362

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Also listen to free domain radio or Stefan Molyneux's channel on YouTube..

:camby: don't listen to Molyneaux he's a self-aggrandizing asswhipe

Collectivist/left anarchy won't work because it doesn't have a method to allocate resources effectively (price mechanism)

kevm3 is just parroting Ayn Rand's argument in The Nature of Government

See

http://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/...ism-and-the-state-an-open-letter-to-ayn-rand/ for a refutation of that argument

Read this OP

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm
 

Ian1362

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Explain how free market capitalism "requires" Statute :dwillhuh:

People battle for resources, capitalism arises when the state protects private property.

That's the traditional argument, and then it is followed by 999999 historical examples of the state defending property unjustly (like slavery), neo-colonialism, eminent domain to mall developers, etc.

Also will probably throw some class-isms in there as well (state is necessary to prevent producing class from gaining control of means of production, the state enforces class statuses, etc.

From a philosophic perspective however it's just question begging, not sound argument.
 
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TLR Is Mental Poison

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pretend all hegemonies are the same, brehs :troll:
Pretend a hegemony is good because u are currently benefiting from it brehs

Like I said u would be the top scientist, or the housiest house nikka, just to feel like u are above somebody else.
 

JahFocus CS

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Explain how free market capitalism "requires" Statute :dwillhuh:

I've traced it in at least three different threads for you breh and then you stop responding when I explain... :wow:

People battle for resources, capitalism arises when the state protects private property.

That's the traditional argument, and then it is followed by 999999 historical examples of the state defending property unjustly (like slavery), neo-colonialism, eminent domain to mall developers, etc.

Also will probably throw some class-isms in there as well (state is necessary to prevent producing class from gaining control of means of production, the state enforces class statuses, etc.

From a philosophic perspective however it's just question begging, not sound argument.

:pachaha: I don't engage in intellectual masturbation so unless you have more to offer than, "It isn't an original/novel/new/groundbreaking argument" - like, an actual critique and examples, and not appeals to masturbatory philosophical "sophistication" - then please :camby:.
 
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JahFocus CS

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I've got some time to kill.
Quote one of those post for me please, or just explain it in detail.

Okay, here's a thought experiment I posted that assumes an initial state of "anarcho-capitalism" from a thread a while back.

Since your "free market" is a theoretical construct, more or less, let's do a brief thought exercise to see how it relates to the state, and why the state is a necessary element for capitalist property relations to be upheld.

1. Let's assume a group of 100 people with "no government" to start. There are 5 factories. Somehow (:duck: I'll let you fill in how this happens since you don't want to consider primitive accumulation through slavery, genocide, etc.), 5 people of those 100 come to "own" those factories. 85 people are employed in those factories and 10 people are unemployed.

2. For simplicity's sake, let's say there's a 12-hour workday (no 8 hour workday without labor struggles and the resultant legislation :duck:) and the workers produce 1 widget per hour. Each widget is sold for $20. Each worker is paid $2 per hour (no minimum wage without a government :duck:. Let's assume this is the minimum for workers to be able to also purchase goods over some time period). The worker's labor generates $240 of revenue for the firm per day, but he or she receives only $24 in compensation. They don't receive the full value of their labor - the owner takes the $216, covers operating costs and whatnot, reinvests some to expand his enterprise and/or pays himself (both of which adds to his personal wealth and power :lupe:).

3. The workers realize they are being exploited. They are being essentially robbed of $216 every day. They find it difficult to survive and hold little power over their own lives since all they have to sell is their labor.

4. The workers make a move to establish more just relations and seek to operate the factories on a communal basis and get rid of the owner, or simply share everything evenly.

5. Seeing this threat to their wealth and power, the owners use their capital to hire armed men to suppress the workers and maintain the current distribution of resources. Every time the workers make a move to operate the factories on a communal basis, these armed men terrorize them into submission with weapons.

6. With this ever-present threat from the workers, the owners institutionalize an armed force and establish apparatuses to mitigate conflict with the working class. The armed force and other apparatuses enforce contracts and property rights, among other things, which also help mitigate conflict between owners. These things establish rules and owners can grow. Otherwise, one owner could just try to hire enough armed men to take everything from the other owners, too.

7. With an armed force (police/military/etc.) and bureaucracies to suppress and/or mitigate inter-class and intra-class conflicts, we now have a state. Its purpose is to maintain the existing distribution of resources between the classes.

8. Perhaps over the course of state development, voting opens up and workers agitate and get some reforms passed. Maybe some social services begin to be offered by the state. These have the effects of giving the state a more legitimate appearance and deflating worker agitation. This is all to perpetuate the system and save it. (on a side note, Keynes was often lambasted by conservatives as being a socialist or communist :duck:. He himself noted that he was saving capitalism with his policies, not undermining it. The state is an arena where class conflict is managed.)

Capitalism requires a state. Otherwise everyone would see how they're getting screwed and would take over the means of production (then there's no more capitalism). What stops or delays that? State force. Which is deployed on behalf of one class (the bourgeoisie) and against another (the working class).

And a related post from one of the recent police threads.

Hmmmm, the poor are oppressed? So it's not simply a reflection of their economic worth and contribution as determined by the market? :ohhh:

What other economic models do you see as being in existence in the world today? There is class oppression in class societies. And the state is the only way to carry this out... if not for the state, the ruling class would fall. Under capitalism, this means that bosses could no longer enforce private property rights (different from personal property rights, by the way) to the means of production, thereby controlling people's labor and access to the things they need to survive.

Fascist countries are capitalist (perhaps not the "free market" as you conceive of it, but this just shows that the ruling class will wield the state in whichever way is most effective to maintain its rule). "Dictatorship" is too broad, that's just a description of government without much bearing or significance for the economic system. And what countries are "communist-run" that have workers controlling the means of production - that is, which ones are actually pushing for socialism and then communism and aren't actually state capitalist?

The modern institution of police arose at the same time capitalism solidified as a system. It is qualitatively different from analogues you may point to under previous modes of production in human history. Otherwise, if you want to just say, "force has always been used to suppress and oppress people," that is true, but how is that social analysis at all, and especially social analysis with any rigor?
 

Ian1362

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I've traced it in at least three different threads for you breh and then you stop responding when I explain... :wow:



:pachaha: I don't engage in intellectual masturbation

lol, the whole post you quoted after this is exactly that breh.






so unless you have more to offer than, "It isn't an original/novel/new/groundbreaking argument" - like, an actual critique and examples, and not appeals to masturbatory philosophical "sophistication" - then please :camby:.

Thankfully I'm free to post what i like rather than have to placate a dumbass like yourselves imaginary construction of how the world works. Your eight point example is a hilariously nonsensical failure of an attempt at modeling Crusoe economics.

Then again, I'm just masturbating intellectually by not attempting to confine myself to myopic views of economic action, like you clearly are not doing. :umad:
 

Brown_Pride

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A 'stateless' society would pretty much be an even more corporate controlled society where huge corporations with private militaries establish dominance over various territories... which is what we're essentially moving to now in the era of 'multinational corporations'
If you're really honest that's what all "states" throughout history have been and will be.

Groups of people with money, securing their hold on money and battling other groups of people with money for more money. Money, money money.

Show me a state past or present were the people in power were poor (relative to the people they were governing)
 

gho3st

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People battle for resources, capitalism arises when the state protects private property.

That's the traditional argument, and then it is followed by 999999 historical examples of the state defending property unjustly (like slavery), neo-colonialism, eminent domain to mall developers, etc.

Also will probably throw some class-isms in there as well (state is necessary to prevent producing class from gaining control of means of production, the state enforces class statuses, etc.

From a philosophic perspective however it's just question begging, not sound argument.
I don't think you can apply "philosophical perspective" to what you just wrote because it doesn't make sense.
 

JahFocus CS

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Thankfully I'm free to post what i like rather than have to placate a dumbass like yourselves imaginary construction of how the world works. Your eight point example is a hilariously nonsensical failure of an attempt at modeling Crusoe economics.

Then again, I'm just masturbating intellectually by not attempting to confine myself to myopic views of economic action, like you clearly are not doing. :umad:

And I'm the dumbass. Okay kid :mjlol:

You still haven't said anything substantive, anywhere, in several threads. You're a late contender for Worst Poster of 2014 but you're building a strong case :skip:

Goodbye
full
 
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