The devolution of the Western Left from Paris Commune to identity politics has been a disaster
- Thread starter Scoop
- Start date
Did we ever?
thatrapsfan
Superstar
@FAH1223 claimed the left is destroyed and Im saying this is a huge overstatement. The establishment right in France is about to blow their second straight election, theyre hardly on the ascendancy.
In Germany the "actual right wing" isnt polling well either:
German left-of-center majority edges ahead as Merkel prospects dim: poll
Red Shield
Global Domination
Bernie Bros so commited to the narrative that the right is taking over
I'll quote this in the summer when the EUs two most important countries have left leaning governments.
Have you not been paying attention to the rising tide of the far right in the eu.
Broke Wave
The GOAT
The ACTUAL left is destroyed, that is true. If Hillary Clinton won, this fact wouldn't change. It's a shame that you don't understand the nuances and just read headlines.
My nikka @Broke Wave has been on his savage shyt here in HL for a good minute.pulling no punches
I was trying to be nice to brehs but I really think by entertaining stupidity we're complicit in it.
thatrapsfan
Superstar
I think you're projecting here, because headline reading is exactly what you're doing here. Theres a gazillion headlines about the rights ascendancy in Europe and the West but the actual story is much more nuanced. Establishment parties on both sides are losing popularity and their smaller equivalents are gaining support on both sides. When its comes to elections with PR or multiple rounds, this favours the left because the plurality of people will not support their opposition on the right.
What exactly is your definition of the left here, because it seems extremely arbitrary?
Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the official opposition in the UK, after a decade plus of the same neoliberals you guys rage about running the party.....and you claim this means destruction?
You dont even realize this climate favours parties you purport to support.Keep fishing for HL daps with the insults and dance around the substance of my argument.
GnauzBookOfRhymes
Superstar
there is a huge difference between political outcomes and preferences.
if hillary had won a handful more votes in a few states, we wouldn't be talking about this in the US.
furthermore, i think it's a bit ham handed to try to draw parallels between countries/societies over such a long period of time. the economy of the revolutionary france bears very little resemblance, and i don't know that you can draw any logical conclusions, to the U.S., or German for that matter, economy.
finally, the one thing that we suffer from nowadays is the desire for instant gratification. changes in political, economic and social structures USUALLY take a LONG time. it is very rare when a movement is able to seize a moment that comes along once in a lifetime, and instantly reverse or change the direction. if, as we are assuming, the US has in fact been governed for the last century or so pursuant to a neoliberal consensus that places the desires of the well off in front of every one else - you would be a fool to think that this can be changed by one election or president.
these things take years - the reason the left has been failing is that they don't understand that point but the right wing does. the right wing, upon realizing/believing that the media will never give them a fair shake, set the groundwork for all of these organizations (heritage foundation, AEI, Federalist Society, etc etc) to counter that literally decades ago. Same with talk radio and other conservative media outlets. the left is all about tactics. on that I agree with you - and that is why it appears as though identity politics is the primary driving force.
I could expand but I gotta go!
good topic.
if hillary had won a handful more votes in a few states, we wouldn't be talking about this in the US.
furthermore, i think it's a bit ham handed to try to draw parallels between countries/societies over such a long period of time. the economy of the revolutionary france bears very little resemblance, and i don't know that you can draw any logical conclusions, to the U.S., or German for that matter, economy.
finally, the one thing that we suffer from nowadays is the desire for instant gratification. changes in political, economic and social structures USUALLY take a LONG time. it is very rare when a movement is able to seize a moment that comes along once in a lifetime, and instantly reverse or change the direction. if, as we are assuming, the US has in fact been governed for the last century or so pursuant to a neoliberal consensus that places the desires of the well off in front of every one else - you would be a fool to think that this can be changed by one election or president.
these things take years - the reason the left has been failing is that they don't understand that point but the right wing does. the right wing, upon realizing/believing that the media will never give them a fair shake, set the groundwork for all of these organizations (heritage foundation, AEI, Federalist Society, etc etc) to counter that literally decades ago. Same with talk radio and other conservative media outlets. the left is all about tactics. on that I agree with you - and that is why it appears as though identity politics is the primary driving force.
I could expand but I gotta go!
good topic.
thatrapsfan
Superstar
This just from today. The most left-wing candidate France's Socialist Party candidate and a card-carrying Communist are on the verge of merging support. If they do they likely have enough support to be the favourites in the French election. Their platform is by far the most left-wing any serious French candidates have had in decades, maybe ever.
The left is destroyed though
@FAH1223 @Broke Wave
French left candidates seek to bridge policy gulf before election
The two main left-leaning candidates in France's presidential election are holding talks on possible cooperation, in a move that would require them to reconcile some major policy differences but could possibly put one of them in contention.
If Socialist Benoit Hamon and Jean-Luc Melenchon, of the hard left, agreed to team up, opinion polls suggest their combined vote might provide the Left with a chance of going through to face the far-right's Marine Le Pen in the May 7 second round of voting.
The left is destroyed though
@FAH1223 @Broke Wave
French left candidates seek to bridge policy gulf before election
The two main left-leaning candidates in France's presidential election are holding talks on possible cooperation, in a move that would require them to reconcile some major policy differences but could possibly put one of them in contention.
If Socialist Benoit Hamon and Jean-Luc Melenchon, of the hard left, agreed to team up, opinion polls suggest their combined vote might provide the Left with a chance of going through to face the far-right's Marine Le Pen in the May 7 second round of voting.
This just from today. The most left-wing candidate France's Socialist Party candidate and a card-carrying Communist are on the verge of merging support. If they do they likely have enough support to be the favourites in the French election. Their platform is by far the most left-wing any serious French candidates have had in decades, maybe ever.
The left is destroyed though
@FAH1223 @Broke Wave
French left candidates seek to bridge policy gulf before election
The two main left-leaning candidates in France's presidential election are holding talks on possible cooperation, in a move that would require them to reconcile some major policy differences but could possibly put one of them in contention.
If Socialist Benoit Hamon and Jean-Luc Melenchon, of the hard left, agreed to team up, opinion polls suggest their combined vote might provide the Left with a chance of going through to face the far-right's Marine Le Pen in the May 7 second round of voting.
It's destroyed in America
Europe has more structured left wing politics and figures. Corbyn's rise is a sign of it. We saw left wing candidate win the Austrian Pres election. Germany's Social Democrats are polling higher than CDU.
thatrapsfan
Superstar
This thread makes a claim about the whole West.
Even in America, when did a candidate like Bernie have this much influence on the Dem Party in the past few decades? Definitely not the 90s. Considering how deeply unpopular Trump will continue to be and the opportunity his Presidency can create for mobilization this is probably the best positioned the American "left" has been in decades.
thatrapsfan
Superstar
Major party? Not really. Maybe the brief 15 year period of the New Deal.
We're a right wing country through and through. It's synonymous with American culture at this point.
This just from today. The most left-wing candidate France's Socialist Party candidate and a card-carrying Communist are on the verge of merging support. If they do they likely have enough support to be the favourites in the French election. Their platform is by far the most left-wing any serious French candidates have had in decades, maybe ever.
The left is destroyed though
@FAH1223 @Broke Wave
French left candidates seek to bridge policy gulf before election
The two main left-leaning candidates in France's presidential election are holding talks on possible cooperation, in a move that would require them to reconcile some major policy differences but could possibly put one of them in contention.
If Socialist Benoit Hamon and Jean-Luc Melenchon, of the hard left, agreed to team up, opinion polls suggest their combined vote might provide the Left with a chance of going through to face the far-right's Marine Le Pen in the May 7 second round of voting.
When you have to consolidate the entire left half of the spectrum to break 20% of the vote, while Center, Center Right and Far Right candidates are all getting 20% plus each, that's not a good sign for the left.
Ehhh maybe to some but identity politics is also just flat out annoying. It doesn't matter what side is doing it
thatrapsfan
Superstar
Macron actually would be considered "neo-liberal left" based on the gist of your first post. Also would be considered a Dem in the American context, so it doesnt make sense to discount his support.
More people support candidates based on your definition of left, than they support Le Pen or the center right.