Essential The Official Boxing Random Thoughts Thread...All boxing heads ENTER.

GREENandYELLOW

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GGG and SOG are not even remotely alike in the way they have moved in their careers OR they way they are handled.


GGG was a silver medalist....SOG was a gold medalist.

GGG beat a nobody & was gifted his 1st Championship....SOG beat the #1 ranked guy in the division for his as the underdog.

GGG has never even beaten an A fighter in his division....SOG cleared his own division, moved up to the next man's division, and beat the guy who was ranked #2 P4P while holding 3 of the 4 Championships there. Same person people claimed SOG wouldn't fight....he did. And he won.

GGG is protected by the Boxing media....the same Boxing media slanders SOG.


So, yeah. It sounds like personal bias or hate, whichever you prefer to call it, when people say random stuff about SOG that's far from true. You CANT talk down on his resume. You CANT talk about a loss he took. You CANT say he's immature or gets in trouble out the ring. You CANT talk about him missing weight or playing scale games. You CANT talk about anything bad about SOG as a fighter, especially when every single fighter & trainer in the game gives him props for being one of the best fighters period. Only on the internet do people talk down on SOG, and it's always personal bias or hate. Other than that, what's there to dislike about Ward?

He's boring? That's a personal opinion.


What else?


Exactly breh....there's nothing but people not personally liking SOG. There aren't any stories about Ward doing anything :mindblown: that exists......and, for the record, the hate for SOG started way before The Coliseum was even on created. SOG haters were on sohh.com as well:yeshrug:










There's a big barrier......$$$ needs to be stacked higher than $5 million, if Main Events want a rematch. If not, SOG is cool with walking away:manny:


Simple.
That is my point though. Even if you have the greatest resume in the history of boxing, you aren't immune to The Ring fukkery. The Ring fukkery spares no one. Now comebacks may be easier in defending Ward or styling on other people because Ward's resume is pretty damn glistening, but that doesn't mean you get to stand on the sideline and avoide Coli fukkery and cry foul if people want to go at you for real or for fun. I only used GGG as an example (not to compare resumes or anything about them as fighters - that is a whole nother discussion), just saying people bytch about GGG never being criticized by the media, I just used it as an example to say that Ward isn't criticized here (agree that the media unfairly criticizes him). But we aren't the media and we don't need to protect fighters for ulterior motives here. Any fighter and all fighters can get it here, just like any and all fighters should get credit here.

Just know that I have always agreed with everything anyone has said regarding the quality of Ward's resume or his place in PFP rankings. Never been a hater there.
You are right in that the media and fan hate for Ward is weird in that he has never done anything to earn that criticism. There are plenty of other easier targets that the media chooses to not pick on. The only two things that I can think of that I don't care for about Ward is IMO he is The Rings most babied fighter and I find him personality a bit self righteous/arrogant. But that is just an opinion and I could see how someone would have the opposite opinion and respect people who do like him. Ironically I was thinking about that the other day and I generally am not fans of people who are super cocky and prefer more humble personalities. And then I remembered my favorite fighter ever is RJJ and he is one of the most arrogant fighters ever. #ConsistencyCops on myself. :skip: For whatever reason, RJJ just had a swagger I liked.
 

Axum Ezana

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any truth to it? @LeVraiPapi

Golden Boy wants ‘black hitler’ e-mails excluded from trial


According to the deposition of Michael Ring, Waddell & Reed’s Media Group Holdings (MGH) made a capital investment of $585 million into Haymon Holdings – the entity that wholly owns Haymon Sports which in-turn runs the operations of the PBC. In a Kansas lawsuit, Waddell investors allege that $925 million was invested into MGH. Bloody Elbow has confirmed, per SEC filings, that Waddell’s Ivy Asset Strategy Fund and W&R Asset Strategy Fund made initial investments into MGH totaling 925,339,000. If $585 million was invested into Haymon Holdings, it is unclear at the moment how the remaining $340 million was used.

$100 Million

Haymon offered to purchase Golden Boy Promotions for $100 million in 2013, according to a Motion in Limine filed by the Haymon Defendants. Haymon’s motion is an attempt to keep arguments and evidence of this offer out of the upcoming trial, claiming it has “no bearing” on Golden Boy’s damages or liability theories.

$38.2 Million

Deetz calculated the following net amounts paid by Haymon to television networks. For the four networks listed, instead of receiving a rights fee for PBC content, Haymon paid them a grand total of $38,225,000, according to Deetz’s report. Based on available documents, it’s not clear if these are annual figures or the aggregate amount paid over time.
CBS: $4,225,000
ESPN: $8,000,000
FOX: $12,500,000
NBC: $13,500,000
$27.7 Million

Alvarez-Khan generated revenue of $27,707,448 and was Golden Boy’s most profitable fight of 2016. Khan made $6 million and Alvarez made $13,309,664 (80% of the net profits) while Golden Boy made net profits of $3,327,415.88.

$20 Million

Deetz estimates Golden Boy’s lost profits due to Haymon’s alleged anticompetitive practices at $20 million.

$14.4 Million

An exhibit to a Haymon attorney’s declaration shows a programming agreement from Apr. 7, 2014 between NBC and Haymon Sports with a two-year term and exclusivity for Haymon. It calls for 22 episodes: 12 on NBC Sports Network, 6 on NBC daytime (4-6pm), and 4 on NBC primetime (9-11pm).

Per the agreement, Haymon is obligated to contract with a “duly licensed” promoter for each event and is responsible for producing each PBC program. NBC is to pay Haymon $150,000 per episode as a contribution to production costs while Haymon owes NBC a time buy fee of $14.4 million each year with the majority of money due every January and September.

$14 Million

Haymon entities paid Golden Boy $10.5 million in January 2015 as part of a December 2014 settlement agreement to the arbitration case involving former Golden Boy CEO Richard Schaefer, according to an expert report by Michael Smith. As part of the deal, Golden Boy lost the promotional rights to 18 boxers including Danny Garcia, Keith Thurman, Marcos Maidana, Lamont Peterson, Adrien Broner, Peter Quillin, Erislandy Lara, Daniel Jacobs, Abner Mares, Andre Berto, Victor Ortiz, Devon Alexander, Shawn Porter, Robert Guerrero, and Deontay Wilder.

In February 2015, four more boxers’ exclusive promotional rights were terminated in exchange for $3.5 million, per the Smith expert report.

$10.5 Million

Deetz performed an analysis of Golden Boy’s revenues (television revenues, ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship, co-promotion revenue share, and other revenues), fighter and other expenses, and income from boxing operations for 2014, 2015, the first half of 2016, as well as for each individual boxer on Golden Boy’s roster.

Golden Boy uses Deetz’s analysis showing an apparent decline in income from boxing operations from roughly $8.8 million in 2014 to substantially less in 2015 and 2016 - when the PBC was in existence - as part of its theory of damages, although the 2016 number is misleading since it only accounts for half the year. Haymon’s side wants to exclude Deetz’s testimony, noting that he “did not even attempt to control for additional or other reasons that [Golden Boy’s] profits might have dipped following 2014,” with an example that Floyd Mayweather was no longer with the promotion in 2015.

Deetz also breaks down revenues and expenses for each boxer on Golden Boy’s roster. All the following numbers are from his expert report.

In 2014, even though Floyd Mayweather had a fight under the Golden Boy banner, Saul “Canelo” Alvarez was the promotion’s most profitable fighter. By Deetz’s calculations, Canelo brought in $21,266,606 in total revenue compared to $52,934,945 for Mayweather. But Canelo’s fighter and other expenses were $14,012,597 and $4,196,686, respectively, while Mayweather’s were substantially higher at $35,192,616 and $15,525,427. At the end of the day, Golden Boy earned $3,057,323 in income off Canelo compared to $2,216,902 from Mayweather.

In 2015, Canelo was far and away Golden Boy’s most profitable fighter, earning the promotion income of $4,415,306 according to Deetz’s spreadsheet. Golden Boy’s second most profitable fighter that year, Luiz Ortiz, brought in a comparatively paltry $307,309. The first half of 2016 was similar with Canelo earning Golden Boy income of $2,988,256, Amir Khan earning the promotion $449,046, Francisco Vargas making them $238,250, and every other fighter earning Golden Boy income of $61,000 or less. And most boxers on Golden Boy’s roster are money losers. In the first half of 2016, Golden Boy earned negative net income on 142 of 155 boxers (91.6%). Only 13 of 155 boxers (8.4%) made Golden Boy positive net income.

Deetz’s numbers reveal just how incredibly valuable Canelo Alvarez might be to Golden Boy’s bottom line. From 2014 through the first half of 2016, it appears that Golden Boy had combined income from boxing operations of $16,321,659 and Canelo accounted for 10,460,885 of it, or 64.1%. But even this doesn’t reveal the true extent of Golden Boy’s reliance on Canelo since it also appears that Mayweather made the promotion over $2 million in 2014. After Mayweather split with Golden Boy and Haymon bought out his boxers, Canelo accounted for 94% of Golden Boy’s income from boxing operations in 2015 and 107% in the first half of 2016, according to Bloody Elbow’s calculations of financial records in the Deetz’s report.

At the moment, financially-speaking, Canelo is Golden Boy.

Television Contracts

Per the stipulated pre-trial facts:

Haymon Sports entered into an exclusive time-buy contract with NBC on Apr. 7, 2014, which commenced on Jan. 1, 2015.
On Jan. 22, 2015, Haymon Sports entered into an exclusive time-buy contract with CBS, but the contract was later terminated by mutual agreement.
As part of the CBS agreement, Haymon Sports entered into a non-exclusive contract with Showtime.
Haymon Sports signed a two-year exclusive time-buy contract with ESPN commencing on Jul. 1, 2015.
Haymon Sports signed an exclusive time-buy contract with Fox Sports commencing on Mar. 31, 2015.
Haymon Sports signed an exclusive contract with Spike TV commencing on Jan. 1, 2015.
The Bounce TV agreement to air PBC events was an oral agreement.
Haymon never sought exclusive contracts with HBO, Showtime, or PPV.
In May 2016, Haymon Sports waived the exclusivity provisions in its television agreements.
According Deetz’s expert report, Haymon agreed to waive television exclusivity as part of his 2016 settlement with Top Rank, which had filed a July 2015 antitrust lawsuit that was almost a carbon copy of Golden Boy’s complaint.

Balderas E-Mails

Golden Boy is trying to exclude 15 e-mails between journalist Hesiquio Balderas and Golden Boy’s Public Relations Director Ramiro Gonzalez. In certain e-mails, Balderas describes Al Haymon as a “*******” and “black hitler.”

Golden Boy argues that Haymon is seeking to introduce the e-mails “…to impute Mr. Balderas’ inflammatory comments to Golden Boy, and thereby inflame the passions of the jury.” Haymon notes that 10 of the 15 e-mails don’t contain any inflammatory language, instead “…these emails between Mr. Balderas and Mr. Gonzalez simply concern their joint efforts to distribute English and Spanish versions of articles in which Mr. Balderas portrays Mr. Haymon in an extremely negative light.”

In his deposition, Gonzalez was asked to translate the key section of Balderas’ e-mail above: “He's going to put it in English and he's going to be a hit. This is interesting the point that Jose mention here, how the, you know, the black hitler has damaged the Abner and Leo career. He put it to fight with only tomato cans. He put those fights to fight with only tomato cans.”

Regardless of the merits of the antitrust case against Haymon - which will be determined soon enough - it’s easy to see why Golden Boy might not be too happy with him. Not only does it appear that a $100 million buyout offer wasn’t accepted, it seems Haymon then hoodwinked Golden Boy with their December 2014 settlement agreement and subsequent buyout of 22 of his fighters. And then Haymon swooped in with PBC and started paying television networks $38 million while Golden Boy’s annual boxing net income was in the range of $8.8 to 4.7 million.

Throw in that Haymon was Mayweather’s advisor when he and his sizeable promotional net income (according to Deetz’s numbers) left Golden Boy and it’s probably all pretty frustrating.

The trial date is currently set for Mar. 14 in Los Angeles. Judge Walter has yet to rule on Haymon’s motion for summary judgment, which could significantly impact the scope of the trial, and possibly cancel it altogether. Bloody Elbow will keep readers updated on major developments in the case.
 

Newzz

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That is my point though. Even if you have the greatest resume in the history of boxing, you aren't immune to The Ring fukkery. The Ring fukkery spares no one. Now comebacks may be easier in defending Ward or styling on other people because Ward's resume is pretty damn glistening, but that doesn't mean you get to stand on the sideline and avoide Coli fukkery and cry foul if people want to go at you for real or for fun. I only used GGG as an example (not to compare resumes or anything about them as fighters - that is a whole nother discussion), just saying people bytch about GGG never being criticized by the media,
  1. I just used it as an example to say that Ward isn't criticized here (agree that the media unfairly criticizes him).

But we aren't the media and we don't need to protect fighters for ulterior motives here. Any fighter and all fighters can get it here, just like any and all fighters should get credit here.

Just know that I have always agreed with everything anyone has said regarding the quality of Ward's resume or his place in PFP rankings. Never been a hater there.
You are right in that the media and fan hate for Ward is weird in that he has never done anything to earn that criticism. There are plenty of other easier targets that the media chooses to not pick on. The only two things that I can think of that

  1. I don't care for about Ward is IMO he is The Rings most babied fighter and I find him personality a bit self righteous/arrogant. But that is just an opinion
and I could see how someone would have the opposite opinion and respect people who do like him. Ironically I was thinking about that the other day and I generally am not fans of people who are super cocky and prefer more humble personalities. And then I remembered my favorite fighter ever is RJJ and he is one of the most arrogant fighters ever. #ConsistencyCops on myself. :skip: For whatever reason, RJJ just had a swagger I liked.

  1. You must be reading The Ring v2 or something. What do you mean SOG isn't criticized? There's more people that post consistently in The Ring that dislike SOG as a fighter, than those of us who actually do like him as a fighter:sas1:
  2. Sounds exactly like personal bias or hate to me breh...:sas2:
 

theflyest

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What does Ward gain by fighting Badou Jack who I believe will take an L tomorrow

Your asking the wrong question here. This is more about Floyd working in the best interest of his fighter.

Also, why wouldn't Badou Jack be an attractive option for Ward? It's not like there are a lot of big fights at 175. With Badou Jack, if he where to win tomorrow, you would have a champion moving up in weight that is very beatable. When is that NOT an attractive option in boxing?
 

GREENandYELLOW

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Dan Rafael chat wrap 1/13:

- No idea what Mayweather does next with his career, but doubts he fights McGregor.
- Doesn't want to see another Super 6 tournament. Likes tournaments, but thinks 4 is a better number.
- GRJ fight vs. Escandon probably will move to March.
- Pacquiao vs. Cotto rematch? Pacquiao would win.
- Thoughts on Floyd saying Canelo will KO GGG? Floyd being Floyd.
- Canelo moving to 164.5 to fight JCC is not a big deal. His team believes he wins the fight and it was a pure business decision. As long as he is at 160 for GGG in September it doesn't matter.
- Thoughts on Canelo vs. JCC? Likes big events and this is a big event.
- Hearing most likely location for JCC vs. Canelo is Vegas.
- JCC says he would like Roach to train him, but nothing official.
- Believes it was a poor decision for HBO to pass on the triple header headlined by Donaire-Valdez. Doesn't know HBO's budget for this year or their other programming.
- Arum is going to talk with HBO about showing Pacquiao vs. Horn. Arums says it is possible it might not be on PPV, but he believes it will be on PPV.
- Doubts Culcay vs. Andrade happens in March.
- Pedraza vs. Davis? Davis is bigger, stronger, faster, younger, and hungrier.
- Would GGG move up if he fought and beat Jacobs and Canelo? That would leave him one defense away from tying Hopkins MW defense record, so bets he would stay at MW to try and break it.
- Viloria is going to make up comeback sometime this year. Maybe a fight in Asia.
- No idea what Bryant Jennings is up to.
- Thinks Crawford should fight Felix Diaz next.
- Reason for no GGG vs. Jacobs rematch? It was a mandatory and both sides agreed to not negotiate one in.
- Spence vs. Thurman, Garcia, and Crawford? Probably beats all three.
- Which current fighter overrates his status the most? Eubank Jr.
- Joe Smith vs. Stevenson has a possibility of happening.
- DeGale vs. Jack is a really close fight and could see it being a draw. Picking DeGale in a very close fight.
- Berto and Porter are in talks. Would be a really fun fight.
- BJS has a belt, but would not call him a champion. Champions make good fights, look at Indongo-Burns, and Lemieux defending right away with GGG.
- Suprised to hear Floyd disparage Virgil Hunter. Possibly could have been to help try to promote a fight between Jack and Ward.
- Jarrett Hurd might be on the Wilder undercard next month.
- Zurdo will be back in action in March/April.
- There is some effort being made to make Brook vs. Khan. If Brook takes the fight he will be stripped of his title.
- Luis Ortiz vs. Jarrell Miller is an intriguing fight, but unless it is for a title doubts it happens.
- Bradley for HOF? He would get some support. He is borderline, but would be inclined to vote for him.
- Opinion on difference between a punchers and boxers glove? Huge difference.
- Buy or Sell GGG vs. Canelo gets made in September? Buy, as long as both win their interim fights.
- If Ward wants to retire, good for him. Just don't drag it out holding up a Kovalev rematch.
- Terry Norris vs. Canelo at 154? Not sure Norris' chin could hold up.
- Too Sharp vs. Chocolatito at 112? Awesome fight, tough call. Could see arguments for both sides.
- Lomachenko vs. JMM, Barrera, Morales, and Pacquiao at 126-130? Would hold his own against any of them.
 

theflyest

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Reading Fat Dan's chat, he just doesn't understand that the Super 6 was great for boxing. I keep hearing the tournament was too long, but I would rather have 2-3 years of solid fights as opposed to some of the garbage we get. What really is the urgency of a guy being declared as the winner? Okay, we have a winner, now what? Back to the cherry picking bullshyt that we have now.

A lot of divisions right now could benefit from the super 6. A round robin tournament where we get different matches.
 

GREENandYELLOW

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  1. You must be reading The Ring v2 or something. What do you mean SOG isn't criticized? There's more people that post consistently in The Ring that dislike SOG as a fighter, than those of us who actually do like him as a fighter:sas1:
  2. Sounds exactly like personal bias or hate to me breh...:sas2:
See I disagree with personal bias or hate...rather just my opinion. It isn't like I don't like watching Ward fight or root against him. I like watching him fight and have a neutral opinion on whether he wins or not. If he wins it doesn't make me happy, if he were to lose it wouldn't make me happy either. I just like watching him fight because he is talented and I like watching talented fighters fight.
 

seemorecizzy

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@Newzz how do expect Canelo to do better vs Floyd, when post Floyd he caught a lesson from Lara one punch pony ass; and losing 4 rounds to Khan; explain please I'll wait


Neg Pending:pacspit:
has nothing to do with canelos improvement
all to do with hoping floyds declines enough at 41 so that canelo can get a lucky punch is
 

LinusCaldwell

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Floyd talking greasy about Ward :wow: Badou going to unify tomorrow :lupe: Conor wanna be number 50 on Floyd undefeated list :blessed:
 

seemorecizzy

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I will have such a good laugh if Ward wins the rematch this time clearly and all these haters will have to shut the fukk up

I will tag you one by one when it happens to see how your whiny ass can handle it @Skip b @yoyoyo1 @Dougfischer @Danrafael @Stevekim @Jimlampley :russ:
ward winning second fight cleanly doesnt take away from the first being a 50 50 fight breh
 

HeruDat1

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Your asking the wrong question here. This is more about Floyd working in the best interest of his fighter.

Also, why wouldn't Badou Jack be an attractive option for Ward? It's not like there are a lot of big fights at 175. With Badou Jack, if he where to win tomorrow, you would have a champion moving up in weight that is very beatable. When is that NOT an attractive option in boxing?

Well of course Floyd is but he's not gonna be the determining factor, that's why Ward said "I'm not taking the bait" also isn't Ward questioning retirement and already said several times if he gets in the ring it has to make sense. Aka the right dancing partner and right earnings, if people didn't know Kovalev you think they'll know Jack?

I just don't think a matchup with Badou does anything for Ward, even with a DeGale win. And again don't see Jack getting past DeGale
 
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