The RZA Explains Why He Didn't Let Wu-Tang Clan Work With Outside Producers During Early Run

[Unbothered]

Classic, I love the Wu. 93-97 is arguably the greatest run in Hip-Hop. RZA's top 5 producers (#3 on my list).

Since a few brought it up...my take on the consensus of them “falling” off had a lot more to do with their production output than their lyrics because lyrically you could make the argument that after '97 the group was at their best from that end.

The issue with Wu during that second run of albums is how each record lacked a cohesive sound. Rae, GZA, Deck, and Meth lyrically were at the top of their game on Tical 2000, Beneath The Surface, Immobilarity, and Uncontrolled Substance, unfortunately, the lack of a cohesive sound and weak/shoddy beats is what hurt those outings. Not to mention RZA going a little off the rails with his own production.

What made Supreme Clientele stand out and often be held as the “comeback” album during that second run wasn't necessary because of Ghost's lyrics but the production. Although RZA didn't produce it entirely he oversaw it which helped bring the cohesiveness that was missing after Forever.

 

[TripleAgent]

RZA was so ahead of times with his production, I wonder if he'd ever go back now to recreate the same magic

He's too worried about music theory and composition. He would probably look at you like if you gave him an SP or ASR and a crate of records and told him to make you 3 beats. He's moved on. I hate it, but I respect it. That's what the whole "digital" thing is about. That and not paying for samples

They won't like this

fukk 'em, he's right. RZA was on fire and unstoppable that run.

"let" sounds odd, he was not their dad and did not have any legal power to stop dudes that were signed to completely different labels?

He cold kick them out of wu-tang perhaps.


"I didn't want people to dance I wanted to make hiphop" is also a wild cacish take.
Many earlier hiphop songs were very dance friendly and breakdancing is one of the 4 original elements.

Everyone was signed FIRST under Wu-Tang Productions (RZA, Divine and Power). Everything went through them first.

 

[threattonature]

Classic, I love the Wu. 93-97 is arguably the greatest run in Hip-Hop. RZA's top 5 producers (#3 on my list).

Since a few brought it up...my take on the consensus of them “falling” off had a lot more to do with their production output than their lyrics because lyrically you could make the argument that after '97 the group was at their best from that end.

The issue with Wu during that second run of albums is how each record lacked a cohesive sound. Rae, GZA, Deck, and Meth lyrically were at the top of their game on Tical 2000, Beneath The Surface, Immobilarity, and Uncontrolled Substance, unfortunately, the lack of a cohesive sound and weak/shoddy beats is what hurt those outings. Not to mention RZA going a little off the rails with his own production.

What made Supreme Clientele stand out and often be held as the “comeback” album during that second run wasn't necessary because of Ghost's lyrics but the production. Although RZA didn't produce it entirely he oversaw it which helped bring the cohesiveness that was missing after Forever.

I think part of it to is what we see time and again with artists where for the first album or two they are more willing to take direction in regards to how to spit and what beats to rap over. Then they get to feeling themselves and want more input and the quality falls off.

 

[Ghost Utmost]

my understanding is "method man" -- or a version of it -- was in the street before the singles/videos. i could definitely be wrong cause it was a long time ago, but as i recall a friend from staten island who grew up around them and weebay from the wire said he had it early.

not saying it isn't bullshyt. just adding context.

Thank Goodness that happened and he changed his name.

I used to wonder what all that "Panty Raider" shyt was about.

 

[Awesome Wells]

That was the way back then for collectives.

So it was a dope move for them. Marley was doing the same for Juice Crew. 45 King was doing the same with the early Flavor Unit records. You can establish a sound and set up the team keeping it all in-house. RZA was smart to do that with Wu. Dude literally shifted the culture crazily.

 

[mastermind]

RZA was right and high-key he was more talented than ANY other producer at the time other than Premo and Dr Dre.

Thats right I said ANY other producer. Large Professor, Pete Rock, Q-Tip, Havoc, Easy Mo Bee, whoever. RZA was better

I don't think any one would deny this, tbh.

This shyt definitely was more because this my shyt and I’m the one who make the beats, and less because of some grand strategy.

I agree with this too

 

[gho3st]

Not smart at all for the artists lol

Right? He not only got writer credits but producer credits as well...on everything

 

[Whips-n-Chains]

It's their story to tell, BUT as a fan gotta question the origin story/timeline of Meth's stage name

They had METHOD MAN across the screen, and those were his first words in Protect Your Neck song and video

and in the introduction for Method Man, the song starts with GZA running down their names....and Meth is the last name said as the song starts

Those were the two first songs they released. Only way this adds up is if they added the GZA intro to the song after it blew up on mixtape circuit

RZA said that GZA intro to METHOD Man was added later to "tie the group back in" or something to that affect.

 

[Cladyclad]

That was the way back then for collectives.

So it was a dope move for them. Marley was doing the same for Juice Crew. 45 King was doing the same with the early Flavor Unit records. You can establish a sound and set up the team keeping it all in-house. RZA was smart to do that with Wu. Dude literally shifted the culture crazily.

But what if Rae missed out on a life changing record because of this

not even financial

creative wise man

i would never agree to some shyt like this

 

[Awesome Wells]

But what if Rae missed out on a life changing record because of this

not even financial

creative wise man

i would never agree to some shyt like this

He got OB4CL out of this. That album changed Rae's life.

When he tried to do it without RZA a few years later, he dropped a brick. RZA's the best sh*t to happen to all of those dudes. That's why they don’t get along all the time, because RZA's always treating them like his sons.

 

[Woodrow]

Might be little shawn hating. I’ve NEVER heard anyone else, out of all the shade throwing that goes on in Hip Hop, say that anything about AZ is phony. Sometimes you just gotta chalk up the words of haters as haters if their story of events isn’t verified by anyone else.

Same thing for RZA. I know hip hop, and ESPECIALLY Wu-Tang embody the very ideal of self mythology but everyone and their mother who knew RZA back in the day can attest to his vision and strategic genius. Even Raekwon, at his loudest or U-God, at his surliest have said RZA’s vision is what put them on. So it wasn’t just about control or money (although i’m not denying those are factors or can become factors)

fair. i didn't take it that way though. the thing i don't enjoy about shawn is he definitely presents himself as "i am the most-informed person in the room... and if i'm not i know more about those people than you do." he also talks in riddles sometimes instead of making a clear point, which be draining. but i do think he's impartial, and a great follow, for the most part. i never get the sense that he's hating on anyone. he has a very specific POV based on his life experiences + connections, and he calls it how he sees it whether you agree or not.

and he wasn't saying AZ was phony as much as he was saying he made his story sound cooler than it was for no reason. again, i think this is a trait we all exhibit when asked to explain our success, to be fair. sometimes the story takes on a life of its own. but i think there's a fine line between intuition and intent. or (potentially in AZ's case) being cool/laid back and being cool to the point that you were indifferent about getting on. that's what i took away from what shawn was saying: AZ presented it as "it just happened" and shawn was saying no, you wanted it to happen and a lot more people than you mentioned helped you make it happen. so why tell the story differently?

who's telling the truth? who knows.

i would never deny rza's strategic vision. there's enough evidence to clearly show it should never be questioned. but there's equal evidence that shows rza is a control freak. and i think the experience he and gza had at labels that gave them no control played a major role in the level of control he exerted over how the clan moved. what he did with that control may have been a response to what was popular. but was it specifically so that people wouldn't dance to the clan? if so, what about "you're all i need", "brooklyn zoo"/"shimmy shimmy ya", "ice cream", etc etc etc. that's why i'm saying it was probably a bit of both; there's evidence to suggest the answer isn't that simple. but his answer is definitely more awe-inspiring.

 

[Cladyclad]

He got OB4CL out of this. That album changed Rae's life.

When he tried to do it without RZA a few years later, he dropped a brick. RZA's the best sh*t to happen to all of those dudes. That's why they don’t get along all the time, because RZA's always treating them like his sons.

he Wasn’t in his prime years later. limiting who u work with is never a good thing.he could made a classic with JD or baby face or something.

 

[Ziggiy]

fair. i didn't take it that way though. the thing i don't enjoy about shawn is he definitely presents himself as "i am the most-informed person in the room... and if i'm not i know more about those people than you do." he also talks in riddles sometimes instead of making a clear point, which be draining. but i do think he's impartial, and a great follow, for the most part. i never get the sense that he's hating on anyone. he has a very specific POV based on his life experiences + connections, and he calls it how he sees it whether you agree or not.

and he wasn't saying AZ was phony as much as he was saying he made his story sound cooler than it was for no reason. again, i think this is a trait we all exhibit when asked to explain our success, to be fair. sometimes the story takes on a life of its own. but i think there's a fine line between intuition and intent. or (potentially in AZ's case) being cool/laid back and being cool to the point that you were indifferent about getting on. that's what i took away from what shawn was saying: AZ presented it as "it just happened" and shawn was saying no, you wanted it to happen and a lot more people than you mentioned helped you make it happen. so why tell the story differently?

who's telling the truth? who knows.

i would never deny rza's strategic vision. there's enough evidence to clearly show it should never be questioned. but there's equal evidence that shows rza is a control freak. and i think the experience he and gza had at labels that gave them no control played a major role in the level of control he exerted over how the clan moved. what he did with that control may have been a response to what was popular. but was it specifically so that people wouldn't dance to the clan? if so, what about "you're all i need", "brooklyn zoo"/"shimmy shimmy ya", "ice cream", etc etc etc. that's why i'm saying it was probably a bit of both; there's evidence to suggest the answer isn't that simple. but his answer is definitely more awe-inspiring.

To be fair I wouldn’t categorize Ice Cream, Brooklyn Zoo, or even Shimmy Ya as traditional “dance” songs when it comes to mid 90’s Rap songs. “Your all I Need” remix would fit that description better. I would argue that those songs becoming the hits they became and the club hits they became was more so the sound crossing over to Wu than Wu crossing over to the sound. Thats what was so great about early Wu, they made they’re own lane and forced what was mainstream to adapt to THEM.

Also I don’t want to make it seem that I disagree that RZA was a control freak. I think the term “freak” exerts a negative connotation like he was just telling eight other street nikkas and themselves strong personalities to shut the fukk up and do what he says. I think RZA showed and proved and once it WAS proven that this gave him carte blanch to execute his vision. His vision definitely worked and I think it does a disservice to act like he and the Clan just got “lucky” because it strips the genius away from what RZA was actually able to accomplish not ONLY as a producer, but an artist, a businessman and a leader. So while I agree that he exerted an iron fist when it came to executing the five year plan, the fact that it worked EXACTLY as RZA predicted it would should lend him more credit than the term “control freak”


Also the fact that every member of the Wu, DESPITE their differences with RZA, have never spoken against the initial 5 year plan or said that RZA wasn’t the mastermind behind it

 

[Guvnor]

I get it but it don't hurt to deversify. For my solo record I would want to go outside of Rza's production to diversify if I was them. I wouldn't want to sound like just another Wu Tang project.

That was a move smart for him though. He made some of his best shyt during that time and fell off as time went on. Better tomorrow is proof he isn't the same producer.

 

[Big Boss]