The White Washed Wikipedia Entry For The "Moors"

[Poitier]

Abu Bakr ibn Umar ibn Ibrahim ibn Turgut, sometimes suffixed al-Sanhaji or al-Lamtuni[1] (died 1087; Arabic: أبو بكر بن عمر‎) was a chieftain of the LamtunaBerbers of the western Sahara, and commander of the Almoravids from 1056 until his death.

 

[Poitier]

Berbers seem to be

Caspian culture- Africans who migrated North from East Africa
Cushytic-from Ancient Egyptian trading
Greek- from Phoenician colonies
Roman- from Carthagean colonies
Arab- From the Banu Hilal invansion
Levantine- Yemini Arabs
Germanic-Vandal Kingdom
Slavic- from slave trade
Mande- from slave trade

People are mad mixed. Saying they are anyone thing is dishonest. A lot of their genetics point to East Africa with a Mediterranean influence. The Almoravids in particular seem to have come from the Northwest and less mixed Berber tribes.

This is their version of Sheba, Hatshepsut or Nzinga: Tin Hinan

 

[KOohbt]

It was a term for any brown-dark skinned person to my understanding.

Hmm. My ppls from morocco I'm interested if they had any thing to do with the moors.

 

[Sonni]

Your issue is that you think indigenous Berbers aren't Black African.

How so ? I talked about Moors starting from around 700 ad. Where did i mention something about indigeneous berbers ??

 

[Poitier]

How so ? I talked about Moors starting from around 700 ad. Where did i mention something about indigeneous berbers ??

 

[Sonni]

Moors were Arabs .. They came from Mauritania that's where the word Moros comes from.. They had African servants in Spain

Mauritanians in these times were mostly islamised berbers and blacks in the south not Arabs. The arabisation was only nearly completed in the 17th century after mauritanian berbers lost the final battle. Mauritanians are africans so "they had african servants" tells us nothing. And oh yes, i am half mauritanian.

 

[Sonni]

Don't give me that man. Tell me what do you mean by indigenous berbers. 700 AD, 500 BC, 1350 AD ??

 

[Poitier]

Don't give me that man. Tell me what do you mean by indigenous berbers. 700 AD, 500 BC, 1350 AD ??

Berber tribes up until the conquering of Spain

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Are the Capsian culture and Iberomaurusian indigenous to Africa?

Aye... This is a long and complex situation. Very complex. And some of the stuff I'm going to post, some people may not understand. But first we have to understand, like Northeast Africa(Ancient Egypt, Nubia and the Horn), Eurocentrics have a very deep obsession with Northwest Africans and the Berbers. They try to claim there were Caucasoid in Northwest African during Pre-Historic times around the paleolithic period(30k). I had this debate with many of them. They are halfway right that Eurasians did migrate into Northwest Africa based on mtdna haplogroup U6, but four key things you have to consider:

1. They only have mtdna and no Y-DNA(lack of those Eurasian remains).
2. No fossil remains.
3. Around that time period, Eurasians(including Europeans and West Asians) looked no different from other Africans:

Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/

Also you have to take in mind that the first migrates into Europe came directly from North Africa:
"The first modern humans to reach Europe arrived from Africa 35,000 to 40,000 years ago. By about 30,000 years ago, they were widespread throughout the area while their close cousins, the Neanderthals, disappeared. Hardly any of these early hunter-gatherers carried the H haplogroup in their DNA."

"About 7,500 years ago during the early Neolithic period, another wave of humans expanded into Europe, this time from the Middle East. They carried in their genes a variant of the H haplogroup, and in their minds knowledge of how to grow and raise crops"
^^^^7,500 years is way to late for the Iberomaurusian industry.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...pean-genetic-history-dna-archaeology-science/

So whether 30,000 years or during the Iberomaurusian, those Northwest Africans would have looked no different from other Africans. They definitely wouldn't have been pale/white looking based on the new finding of the gene of the skin tone only arising as late as 7,000 years.

4. A SMP event took place for U6; meaning Haplogroup U6 mutated and is no longer Eurasian. The event took place WAAAAAAAAY before the time of the Berbers or Moors. U6 is around 60k years old, again those carriers would have looked no different from other Africans. But anyways recent studies agree:

No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/12/234

^^^Meaning U6 is unique and found only in Northwest Africa, but also U6 could have mutated before it even entered Africa. Again way before the Berbers.


Understanding this is important. Stay tuned for my next post. There I will try to answer your question as best as I can.

 

[KOohbt]

Aye... This is a long and complex situation. Very complex. And some of the stuff I'm going to post, some people may not understand. But first we have to understand, like Northeast Africa(Ancient Egypt, Nubia and the Horn), Eurocentrics have a very deep obsession with Northwest Africans and the Berbers. They try to claim there were Caucasoid in Northwest African during Pre-Historic times around the paleolithic period(30k). I had this debate with many of them. They are halfway right that Eurasians did migrate into Northwest Africa based on mtdna haplogroup U6, but four key things you have to consider:

1. They only have mtdna and no Y-DNA(lack of those Eurasian remains).
2. No fossil remains.
3. Around that time period, Eurasians(including Europeans and West Asians) looked no different from other Africans:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/

Also you have to take in mind that the first migrates into Europe came directly from North Africa:
"The first modern humans to reach Europe arrived from Africa 35,000 to 40,000 years ago. By about 30,000 years ago, they were widespread throughout the area while their close cousins, the Neanderthals, disappeared. Hardly any of these early hunter-gatherers carried the H haplogroup in their DNA."

"About 7,500 years ago during the early Neolithic period, another wave of humans expanded into Europe, this time from the Middle East. They carried in their genes a variant of the H haplogroup, and in their minds knowledge of how to grow and raise crops"
^^^^7,500 years is way to late for the Iberomaurusian industry.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...pean-genetic-history-dna-archaeology-science/

So whether 30,000 years or during the Iberomaurusian, those Northwest Africans would have looked no different from other Africans. They definitely wouldn't have been pale/white looking based on the new finding of the gene of the skin tone only arising as late as 7,000 years.

4. A SMP event took place for U6; meaning Haplogroup U6 mutated and is no longer Eurasian. The event took place WAAAAAAAAY before the time of the Berbers or Moors. U6 is around 60k years old, again those carriers would have looked no different from other Africans. But anyways recent studies agree:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/12/234

^^^Meaning U6 is unique and found only in Northwest Africa, but also U6 could have mutated before it even entered Africa. Again way before the Berbers.


Understanding this is important. Stay tuned for my next post. There I will try to answer your question as best as I can.

What connections do Moroccans have with the moors?

 

[Sonni]

Berber tribes up until the conquering of Spain

So when and how did the absolute majority of the berber tribes became white?
Where are the ''black african berbers'' and are they related to black SSA tribes ? If so which ones ?

 

[Sonni]

Hmm. My ppls from morocco I'm interested if they had any thing to do with the moors.

Where in Morocco are you from ?

 

[88m3]

can't believe you guys are still chasing this moor/berber nonsense.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@KidStranglehold

Are the Capsian culture and Iberomaurusian indigenous to Africa?

Now to try and answer your question. I'll start with the Iberomaurusian first.

Was the Iberomaurusian indignous? To be honest I need to do more research on it. But I know older industries in Northwest Africa like the Aterian definitely were. Some people stated the "ibero" is a misnomer. The Cambridge History of Africa seems to hint that it was indignous.

But I think the Iberomaurasian could have had those U6 carriers. Let me post this study again:

We report here 24 M1 and 33 U6 new complete mtDNA
sequences that allow us to refine the existing
phylogeny of these haplogroups. The resulting
phylogenetic information was used to genotype a
further 131 M1 and 91 U6 samples to determine the
geographic spread of their sub-clades. No southwest
Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6
and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and
Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-
clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with
their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper
Palaeolithic. The Bayesian Skyline Plots testify to non-
overlapping phases of expansion, and the haplogroups'
phylogenies suggest that there are U6 sub-clades that
expanded earlier than those in M1. Some M1 and U6
sub-clades could be linked with certain events
For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.

^^^That may indicate that they are African. As for phenotypic features. It is often said that the Iberomaurusians had robust facial features. Nothing "Caucasoid" about them.

But if we wanna dig deeper and say "ibero" is not a misnomer. By time of the Iberomaurusian culture, Southern Europe(Iberia) was inhabited by Africans.

This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.

--Carles Lalueza-Fox et al

Current Biology, 28 June 2012 doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2012.06.005

Genomic Affinities of Two 7,000-Year-Old Iberian Hunter-Gatherers

And...

The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

http://digital.csic.es/handle/10261/93059

^^^^That's definitely around the time of the iberomaurasian. And shows Africans were still migrating into Europe and not the other way around.

But I still need to do more research.

As for the Capsian culture. They definitely were indignous Africans. A people named the Mechta-Afalou were inhabitants of the Capsian culture(and Iberomaurasian). Eurocentrics are obsessed with the Afalou due to this. But many studies agree that they were indignous Africans.

The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artefacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998)

http://m.friendfeed-media.com/f0c1e1ca140a227fe018ee5c38da83dd5facb5fe

But IMO they would be absorbed by migrating AA speakers. I can post more studies on the Afalou if need be. Also I forgot to mention that the Capsian culture in Kenya is older than the one in Northwest Africa.

But anyways, to me the Iberomaurasian and Capsian culture is extremely MOOT when discussing the Berbers. Not only is the Berber people recent in NA(way after the Ibero and Capsian culture), but Berbers as a whole are a diverse group and most have heterogeneous origins only going as far to the late Holocene. The bulk of Berbers on their Y-DNA side descend from East Africa. Tuaregs who are one of the oldest Berber groups has a connection to East Africa iirc.

Meanwhile on their mtDNA side its extremely diverse, but most of it being recent European women ancestry going back during the Islamic period and not pre-history. Do Berbers descend from the Maurusians/Capsian culture? Some do, but must do not. I would say only 10% of North Africans even descend from those two cultures. Again the bulk of Berbers origins lay in the East Africa during the late Holocene. Any of people from those two cultures would have been absorbed by AA speakers, because Northwest Africa was extremely sparsely populated.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

What connections do Moroccans have with the moors?

A LOT of connections. You're practically descendants of them. But you Northwest Africans/Berbers have to acknowledge you're of mixed African status and descend from Africans(and not wandering Caucasoid) if you want to claim a connection to the Moors. Genetics is pretty clear on where "Berber" people ultimately "Come From". From what I have seen some are unwilling to accept this.