There's A Difference Between The GOAT And YOUR GOAT

[Treblemaka]

So if Nike is now where Converse was in the 80s, why doesn’t another shoe company like Adidas, Under Armor etc… run the so called “Nike marketing playbook that they used to prop a random good player like MJ” to prominence and unprecedented success?

Nike is not the only shoe company signing athletes so where are the “next MJs at?” I wonder if the same thing happened to Michael Jackson too where they just marketed him as the greatest performer and the “king of pop” and the masses just ate it up

Nike isn't the only shoe company but they are the only one American sports athletes really want to sign to.

Messi signed with Adidas and they attempted the Jordan brand tactics and it appears to be working well. Many considered him in the GOAT conversation way before it was merited.

Adidas signed Kobe, he was supposed to be their lynch pin in the US Basketball market. But Adidas fumbled with a poorly designed shoe. Nike came along with a bigger bag and a better shoe design, with a brand deal that was better with perfect timing because during that time he went on his second run.

Under Armour signed Steph and ran the playbook and it was working for a while especially with kids.

This is on top of having a 24 hour news cycle, greater player empowerment, greater player scrutiny, social media, and a less competitive shoe market. Which changes how you have to execute that type of marketing plan and how much it costs.

Beating Nike at Marketing now requires getting to a potential star first (Converse wasn't really checking for Jordan) and is near impossible to do because the best players are likely going to Nike camps and playing in Nike leagues when they are children. Then they have to convince them (or pay them) enough that they can brand that player well enough to take on the Nike machine, the largest of its type in the world.


You're not showing me how Lebron has more marketing and PR you're just attempting to poke holes in my argument.

Again, how does Lebron have more PR and Marketing than Jordan did in the 80s and 90s?

 

[murksiderock]

There is a reason why you keep using “late in the playoffs” instead of the Super Bowl/Finals , being disingenuous is a Bron stan tactic.

If Allen was 0-3 against Mahomes in the Super Bowl games then he would be looked at as a failure. The greatest players are supposed to win the majority of the titles especially if they get there multiple times.

This is such a pathetic and juvenile way to view sports. You completely discount the journey and the fact that sometimes you run into a team that is better than you...

The 2007 Spurs were better than the 2007 Cavs. The 2014 Spurs were better than the 2014 Heat. With the injuries to teammates, the 2015 Warriors were better than the 2015 Cavs. The 2017 Warriors were better than the 2017 Cavs. The 2018 Warriors were better than the 2018 Cavs...

Bron lost 5 of his 6 Finals to dynastic organizations. He got 2 off those dynasties. No one with an honest and clear perception of basketball holds those 5 Finals losses against him. The one he lost that he shouldn't have, is 2011...

The fact he made it to The Finals 7x in 13 years, and 9x in 15 years, is an indicator that he more often lifted his team to contention than Mike lifted his. And remember, I know you like to gloss over this point, but Bron did this with different teams, coaches, philosophies, and #2s, Mike's entire championship legacy is tied to one system, one coach, one wingman. In 8 years with Phil Jackson at coach and Pippen as a matured second option, he dominated The League...

In 7 NBA seasons without Phil as his coach and Scottie as a matured #2, Mike has a .515 regular season win percentage (251-236), missed the playoffs twice, was 3-5 in playoff series, and only advanced to the conference finals once...

The average season for this lame was 42 wins when he didn't have the best of everything at his disposal....

This guy was not a better basketball player than LeBron James because it was proven thru his own work that unless he had the very best everything, you couldn't even contend with him. Kinda sounds like Kevin Durant to me, which is probably what Mike's career would look like if he never got Phil or the run with Scottie all grown up...

A bunch of guys of Mike's era would win the majority of titles in those 8 Phil years if you replaced them with Mike. But what we know for a fact is if you placed Mike I'm any other situation your season was ending early...

Him being 6-0 in The Finals means he only got there 6 times in 15 years, Magic got there 9x in 12, that's a better feat. And it only looks impressive because of the mediocre era he accomplished that in, he didn't do no damage on a winning level in the 80s and wouldn't have done it anywhere near as close in the 2010s...

The way yall dikkeat this man's career and just ignore all context is wild ...

 

[Bar Razor]

This PR thing is one problem I have when people bring up this part of the conversation, regardless of whether someone can see that Jordan is the more accomplished athlete on the court (in his prime)

Jordan acted like he thought was the best player in the way he talked to other players and how he treated other people. He just understood PR a little bit better and wanted to appear more humble to the public because vvhites don't like arrogant players and "Republicans buy sneakers too."

Lebron might have a PR team but Jordan had an entire F500 athletic company that grew to be the largest in the world that had a vested interest in him being percieved as the best. Nike did everything they could and ran as much PR as they could to make him look as good as possible. Jordan had Sneakers and a Brand that at the time had never been done on that scale and was ground breaking. The NBA also put alot of Marketing behind Jordan and making him look unassailable at the time. None of his degeneracy or fuk ups ever were more than a blip in the news (which at the time wasn't anywhere near what it is today), and I barely remember him getting roasted when he had down games after he came into his prime.

There's not a single company that has had a vested interest in marketing Lebron as the GOAT the way Jordan had.

As someone who was there through all of this I’ll just say that a lot of this is false and revisionist history. However as I indicated I don’t do the back and forth on the Jordan GOAT thing anymore as to me it’s settled science. I will say though that I don’t really care about the off the court stuff when discussing him as a player. Typically when people do that in a discussion about a players game it’s a diversionary tactic. Also the “Jordan’s status is the product of Nike and Gatorade and McDonald’s” argument is so silly as to not be taken seriously. Nike didn’t play the games for him and your take is contradicted by the fact that many other players got hype and endorsements and all of that but none managed to eclipse him. Did it help bring his greatness to the masses? Sure. Did it play the games for him, make him one of the most famous people of all time and earn him the utmost respect from his peers and the public? No, his game did that. Did Michael Jackson’s Pepsi commercials help market him? Sure. Did it make him the greatest entertainer ever? Most certainly not. That was his talent. And so it is with Jordan.

 

[Trojan 24]

This PR thing is one problem I have when people bring up this part of the conversation, regardless of whether someone can see that Jordan is the more accomplished athlete on the court (in his prime)

Jordan acted like he thought was the best player in the way he talked to other players and how he treated other people. He just understood PR a little bit better and wanted to appear more humble to the public because vvhites don't like arrogant players and "Republicans buy sneakers too."

Lebron might have a PR team but Jordan had an entire F500 athletic company that grew to be the largest in the world that had a vested interest in him being percieved as the best. Nike did everything they could and ran as much PR as they could to make him look as good as possible. Jordan had Sneakers and a Brand that at the time had never been done on that scale and was ground breaking. The NBA also put alot of Marketing behind Jordan and making him look unassailable at the time. None of his degeneracy or fuk ups ever were more than a blip in the news (which at the time wasn't anywhere near what it is today), and I barely remember him getting roasted when he had down games after he came into his prime.

There's not a single company that has had a vested interest in marketing Lebron as the GOAT the way Jordan had.

Nike Machine has been behind Lebron since he was 18

Edit- Wrong quote at first

 

[010101]

this is the hater era

bron basically navigating his whole life like the president and is still hated

in the past they protected their sporting heroes & gave them passes

nikkas were degenerate gamblers & the shyttiest of teammates but they sold that shyte regardless HA

*

 

[FS4LFE]

Jordan Stan’s talking about PR when MJ literally has Nike, Gatorade and even the NBA marketing him as the GOAT.

The media has hated LeBron since he went to Miami. He’s faced way more scrutiny from the media. You could make the argument he’s the most scrutinized athlete in modern history. There’s people like Skip Bagless who built a whole career based upon Bron hate.

The finals record argument is disingenuous because it implies Jordan only played six seasons or it’s better to lose in the earlier rounds. Of Lebrons six finals loses he’s only played bad in two. The 2007 Spurs shouldn’t count against him considering he was 22 and the roster he had around him.

Thinking Jordan is the GOAT is understandable but a lot of his fans pick the worst arguments and act like he played 1 vs. 5.

 

[Jerz-2]

As someone who was there through all of this I’ll just say that a lot of this is false and revisionist history. However as I indicated I don’t do the back and forth on the Jordan GOAT thing anymore as to me it’s settled science. I will say though that I don’t really care about the off the court stuff when discussing him as a player. Typically when people do that in a discussion about a players game it’s a diversionary tactic. Also the “Jordan’s status is the product of Nike and Gatorade and McDonald’s” argument is so silly as to not be taken seriously. Nike didn’t play the games for him and your take is contradicted by the fact that many other players got hype and endorsements and all of that but none managed to eclipse him. Did it help bring his greatness to the masses? Sure. Did it play the games for him, make him one of the most famous people of all time and earn him the utmost respect from his peers and the public? No, his game did that. Did Michael Jackson’s Pepsi commercials help market him? Sure. Did it make him the greatest entertainer ever? Most certainly not. That was his talent. And so it is with Jordan.

You're making far too much sense in here, good sir.

 

[broller]

This is such a pathetic and juvenile way to view sports. You completely discount the journey and the fact that sometimes you run into a team that is better than you...

The 2007 Spurs were better than the 2007 Cavs. The 2014 Spurs were better than the 2014 Heat. With the injuries to teammates, the 2015 Warriors were better than the 2015 Cavs. The 2017 Warriors were better than the 2017 Cavs. The 2018 Warriors were better than the 2018 Cavs...

Bron lost 5 of his 6 Finals to dynastic organizations. He got 2 off those dynasties. No one with an honest and clear perception of basketball holds those 5 Finals losses against him. The one he lost that he shouldn't have, is 2011...

The fact he made it to The Finals 7x in 13 years, and 9x in 15 years, is an indicator that he more often lifted his team to contention than Mike lifted his. And remember, I know you like to gloss over this point, but Bron did this with different teams, coaches, philosophies, and #2s, Mike's entire championship legacy is tied to one system, one coach, one wingman. In 8 years with Phil Jackson at coach and Pippen as a matured second option, he dominated The League...

In 7 NBA seasons without Phil as his coach and Scottie as a matured #2, Mike has a .515 regular season win percentage (251-236), missed the playoffs twice, was 3-5 in playoff series, and only advanced to the conference finals once...

The average season for this lame was 42 wins when he didn't have the best of everything at his disposal....

This guy was not a better basketball player than LeBron James because it was proven thru his own work that unless he had the very best everything, you couldn't even contend with him. Kinda sounds like Kevin Durant to me, which is probably what Mike's career would look like if he never got Phil or the run with Scottie all grown up...

A bunch of guys of Mike's era would win the majority of titles in those 8 Phil years if you replaced them with Mike. But what we know for a fact is if you placed Mike I'm any other situation your season was ending early...

Him being 6-0 in The Finals means he only got there 6 times in 15 years, Magic got there 9x in 12, that's a better feat. And it only looks impressive because of the mediocre era he accomplished that in, he didn't do no damage on a winning level in the 80s and wouldn't have done it anywhere near as close in the 2010s...

The way yall dikkeat this man's career and just ignore all context is wild ...

Big facts to the bolded.

I believe Jordan was better but your point about the system is an interesting one.

 

[broller]

Jordan Stan’s talking about PR when MJ literally has Nike, Gatorade and even the NBA marketing him as the GOAT.

The media has hated LeBron since he went to Miami. He’s faced way more scrutiny from the media. You could make the argument he’s the most scrutinized athlete in modern history. There’s people like Skip Bagless who built a whole career based upon Bron hate.

The finals record argument is disingenuous because it implies Jordan only played six seasons or it’s better to lose in the earlier rounds. Of Lebrons six finals loses he’s only played bad in two. The 2007 Spurs shouldn’t count against him considering he was 22 and the roster he had around him.

Thinking Jordan is the GOAT is understandable but a lot of his fans pick the worst arguments and act like he played 1 vs. 5.

It's good to see a few more cats here aren't intellectually disabled and can understand this concept. I seriously wonder what those here who don't understand that do for a living.

 

[Treblemaka]

As someone who was there through all of this I’ll just say that a lot of this is false and revisionist history. However as I indicated I don’t do the back and forth on the Jordan GOAT thing anymore as to me it’s settled science. I will say though that I don’t really care about the off the court stuff when discussing him as a player. Typically when people do that in a discussion about a players game it’s a diversionary tactic. Also the “Jordan’s status is the product of Nike and Gatorade and McDonald’s” argument is so silly as to not be taken seriously. Nike didn’t play the games for him and your take is contradicted by the fact that many other players got hype and endorsements and all of that but none managed to eclipse him. Did it help bring his greatness to the masses? Sure. Did it play the games for him, make him one of the most famous people of all time and earn him the utmost respect from his peers and the public? No, his game did that. Did Michael Jackson’s Pepsi commercials help market him? Sure. Did it make him the greatest entertainer ever? Most certainly not. That was his talent. And so it is with Jordan.

You're making an anticipatory argument against a point I don't agree with and didn't make. I believe Jordan is the most accomplished player in the history of the NBA.

I don't believe that sighting Lebrons PR as a knock against him (its something ypu brought up and would count as off the court) makes much sense when Jordan had more marketing and PR from companies that had a greater vested interest (at the time) in him being successful.

I don't believe Jordan himself is a product of marketing and never made the premise that Gatorade or Nike are the reason for his status. I do however, believe that he is the most heavily marketed athlete in the history of the NBA and that contributes to the perception some people have of him.

No other NBA player has had his level of hype, PR, or marketing during their career. If you can point to an NBA player that has had comparable marketing in impact or distribution I'd like to learn more about who that person is and when/how they had more hype and marketing.

 

[murksiderock]

Big facts to the bolded.

I believe Jordan was better but your point about the system is an interesting one.

The strongest arguments for Mike over Bron to me, is a)if you place a higher credence on him dominating his era more---->I don't, because I think it's abundantly clear that Mike played in a significantly less sophisticated NBA from a scheming and coaching standpoint, and the 90s era Mike won all his titles in, was significantly inferior in the talent and ability of the players he competed against

B)you value the skill of scoring over all other basketball skills;

C)the fact Mike never had a 2011 Finals moment in his career...

These aren't strong enough reasons to justify Mike over Bron to me, but I can understand if these are the reasons someone favors Mike...

Point A isn't strong enough to me for the supporting reasons I listed. Point B, I don't think the gap between their scoring is as wide as assumed, because of the fact LeBron played in an era with more sophisticated defenses, and the fact LeBron has a number of playoff series obliterating elite defenses like the '07 Pistons, '16 Warriors, etc; and the fact LeBron has some huge scoring bursts in the playoffs, in said era or stronger team defense. And, LeBron was just so much better at other basketball areas it nullifies any advantage

Point C to me isn't enough because it's the only Finals worthy of criticism. Bron's best Finals performance (2016) is better than any Mike performance, I think 2016 is the greatest performance of All-Time and I'm not the only person who feels this way, this video explains some reasons why:



So while I disagree with these reasons, I can understand someone who stands on them...

 

[High quality poster]

Jordan Stan’s talking about PR when MJ literally has Nike, Gatorade and even the NBA marketing him as the GOAT.

The media has hated LeBron since he went to Miami. He’s faced way more scrutiny from the media. You could make the argument he’s the most scrutinized athlete in modern history. There’s people like Skip Bagless who built a whole career based upon Bron hate.

The finals record argument is disingenuous because it implies Jordan only played six seasons or it’s better to lose in the earlier rounds. Of Lebrons six finals loses he’s only played bad in two. The 2007 Spurs shouldn’t count against him considering he was 22 and the roster he had around him.

Thinking Jordan is the GOAT is understandable but a lot of his fans pick the worst arguments and act like he played 1 vs. 5.

lol it’s over bro. It’s been over since 2011.

 

[Diondon]

Bronsexuals

 

[broller]

The strongest arguments for Mike over Bron to me, is a)if you place a higher credence on him dominating his era more---->I don't, because I think it's abundantly clear that Mike played in a significantly less sophisticated NBA from a scheming and coaching standpoint, and the 90s era Mike won all his titles in, was significantly inferior in the talent and ability of the players he competed against

B)you value the skill of scoring over all other basketball skills;

C)the fact Mike never had a 2011 Finals moment in his career...

These aren't strong enough reasons to justify Mike over Bron to me, but I can understand if these are the reasons someone favors Mike...

Point A isn't strong enough to me for the supporting reasons I listed. Point B, I don't think the gap between their scoring is as wide as assumed, because of the fact LeBron played in an era with more sophisticated defenses, and the fact LeBron has a number of playoff series obliterating elite defenses like the '07 Pistons, '16 Warriors, etc; and the fact LeBron has some huge scoring bursts in the playoffs, in said era or stronger team defense. And, LeBron was just so much better at other basketball areas it nullifies any advantage

Point C to me isn't enough because it's the only Finals worthy of criticism. Bron's best Finals performance (2016) is better than any Mike performance, I think 2016 is the greatest performance of All-Time and I'm not the only person who feels this way, this video explains some reasons why:



So while I disagree with these reasons, I can understand someone who stands on them...

I put Jordan above in part because he stayed with his team, but I hear your side. The 2011 Finals is a stain.

The sophistication thing is fair, though I feel that's a product of the league at each juncture in time, and therefore it was balanced (ie. Jordan went against less sophistication, but so did his opponents. LeBron went against more sophistication, but so did his opponents)

But I'm not big on the 6-0 thing , as like you said, LeBron getting to the finals in 2007 was hella impressive. And frfr, 2016 was as impressive a finals as you'll see. And his 2015 finals was almost as impressive to be real. They don't do it in basketball, but in the NFL and NHL, they've had losing players win Super Bowl/playoff MVP (Chuck Howley/Ron Hextall and JS Giguere) and I felt in 2015, Bron very well could have gotten it.

 

[Silkk]