To Increase Equity, School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes

[ISO]

But you don't need to take a bachelor's degree with a teacher prep program. They'll hire people with ANY bachelor's degree and then let them do the teacher prep later, just like charter schools.

I don't know why I should even continue this discussion if you're going to double down on a claim as ridiculous as "NYC public schools only hire teachers with education degrees."

Those are fukking Teach for America teachers and those from other pipelines.

Only a couple hundred teachers even get accepted by these programs. Those people can teach with bachelor's degrees but still have to pass those certification exams, still have to have a master's degree within 5 years, still need a certain amount of hours of professional development, their teacher prep program is their internship which is akin to the student teaching experience.

I also never said that NYC public schools only hire teachers with education degrees as I further specified that NYC teachers come in two varieties those that went through traditional teacher education programs and those that went through alternative pipelines and received instruction and experience similar to those who go through traditional education programs. You made it seem like any average Joe with a bachelor's degree in any subject can walk into NYC schools and teach. No, you can't do that, you have to be an education major or go through the pipeline and get certs and additional education. Stop misconstruing and complicating things this just like I never stating that firing teachers was a "solution".

 

[RennisDeynolds]

Honestly if they are worried about equity in the classroom they will seriously retool national requirements and policies for education. The public school system in this country is going to shyt by design and we lag far behind other countries curriculums and standards


Kids are not ready for the next level so they do poorly once they get to college but no child left behind and other trash like this has happened.

They want education to be a privilege with that charter school bullshyt

 

[ISO]

The video changed everything. The surreptitious recording of a teacher berating a first-grader for failing to explain a math problem correctly, ripping up her paper, and then inexplicably telling the subdued child to go sit in the "calm down chair" went viral and jump-started a long-running national debate over the "no excuses" charter school model — a pedagogical approach marked by heavy workloads, rigid zero-tolerance discipline, and a relentless focus on metrics, particularly standardized tests.

The Success Academy Charter Schools are arguably the best-known institutions that follow this model. The storyline its proponents push is that no-excuses schools may be tough but they prepare students well: They represent a kind of educational tough love.

In real life, though, the data seems to show that Success Academy thrives by a combination of kicking out poorly performing students and training the remainder to perform well on tests that kids at other schools don’t really care about — or don’t care as much about.

Other critics have focused on how Success Academy focuses on excluding students who are not likely to perform well on tests — an option public schools don’t have. A parent of a kindergartener with a speech disability complained to the New York Daily News that the academy tried to force her son back into the public schools by framing his frustration in class as a disciplinary problem and repeatedly suspending him. The New York Times revealed that one principal at a Success Academy school had a list of low-performing students labeled "Got to Go."

This ridiculous ass shyt

In public school, frustrated teachers yell at children, curse at children, and those sitting in the cities "reassignment centers" literally put hands on children.

The videos coming out of American public schools are much, much worse.

You think public schools don't teach the test? What the hell do you think the Saturday academies they open up are for? Why do they buy all this software like I-Ready? What do y'all think public schools are doing when the test is looming? Test prep, which again there's nothing wrong with because all tests check is whether students mastered content concepts.

You think public school principals don't have a list of students they'd like to remove?

This bullshyt hypocrisy is typical of charter school detractors and the unions and bureaucracy who at the end of the day are protecting their adult interests over the education of children and brainwashed well meaning academics sipping the political soup push these narratives.

"Oh I hate how those charter kids just walk in lines like robots they're being robbed of black and brown boy joy"

"Oh these damn charter schools always teaching to the test, look at them drilling kids on how to find the central idea of a text and how to solve two step equations"

"Oh these charter schools suspending and kicking kids out, that boy should be allowed to bully others and pull his penis out in class"

"Oh I hate this curriculum I don't want to teach phonics its so colonizing (not my words but those of Oakland public school teachers), there's nothing in my contract that says I have to do this, I'm a teacher if you want phonics go hire a literacy specialist"

 

[ISO]

Charters schools have been proven a waste of time here in Chicago over the past 10+ years. And the education requirements are the same as well. Little to none needed.

Chicago charter schools
98.7% minority students
86% qualify for free lunch
15% special education students
17% English-language learners

Chicago public schools
86% minority students
77% qualify for free lunch
14% special education students
21% English-language learners

The verdict has been higher college and university enrollment, higher completion of college coursework, higher standardized testing during elementary and secondary schooling, higher attendance and classroom engagement. We're talking about close to 60,000 students in the charter schools and at this point over hundreds of thousands of graduates.

The charter schools are not perfect and some networks are better than others (some aren't good at all, and some are small upstart networks), Chicago is also a different beast compared to NYC, but the data shows that the charter schools even there are much better than the public schools.

 

[ISO]

They want education to be a privilege with that charter school bullshyt

The charter school networks that are excelling have standards, public schools don't

Allow them building space and the lotteries would go away. But that wouldn't bode well for the public schools teacher's unions who are more worried about themselves than the education of millions of children.

 

[Wildhundreds]

Chicago charter schools
98.7% minority students
86% qualify for free lunch
15% special education students
17% English-language learners

Chicago public schools
86% minority students
77% qualify for free lunch
14% special education students
21% English-language learners

The verdict has been higher college and university enrollment, higher completion of college coursework, higher standardized testing during elementary and secondary schooling, higher attendance and classroom engagement. We're talking about close to 60,000 students in the charter schools and at this point over hundreds of thousands of graduates.

The charter schools are not perfect and some networks are better than others (some aren't good at all, and some are small upstart networks), Chicago is also a different beast compared to NYC, but the data shows that the charter schools even there are much better than the public schools.

Nah dude.. They are just moving kids through the system. All the numbers are doctored and it shows once the kids get their diploma and go on to college or the real world. Thats documented as well.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Those are fukking Teach for America teachers and those from other pipelines.

Only a couple hundred teachers even get accepted by these programs. Those people can teach with bachelor's degrees but still have to pass those certification exams, still have to have a master's degree within 5 years, still need a certain amount of hours of professional development, their teacher prep program is their internship which is akin to the student teaching experience.

No.

Breh, there are a huge proportion of teachers who get hired before they have an education degree. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. I'm really tired of talking to you about this subject because you're just saying shyt that everyone knows isn't true.

Here are the exact statistics for New York for 2016-2018:

https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northeast/pdf/REL_2022109.pdf

3,313 teachers earned certificates through "Alternative Pathway" (meaning they were enrolled in a certificate program when hired but had not completed an education degree beforehand) and another 5,130 teachers earned certificates through "Individual Evaluation" (meaning they did not meet NY's education program requirements or the Alternative Pathway of current enrollment, but proved through transcripts and work history that they were qualified enough to teach).

And guess what - a full HALF of those teachers with alternative credentials were in high-need urban NYC schools. Meaning those schools are already hiring a ton of people without education degrees, likely based on need.

The only grain of truth in your claim is that charter schools were more likely to have completely uncredentialed teachers. There were 1,173 teachers hired in New York who have no credential at all, and 79% of those were in charter schools. But you didn't claim uncredentialed, you claimed no education degree, and there were many thousands more who didn't have that.

Personally, when I started teaching it was via an "Emergency Credential", which I qualified for solely by having a bachelor's degree and being enrolled in a credential program. And most of the other new teachers I knew in the city were hired the same way.

I also never said that NYC public schools only hire teachers with education degrees

Bullshyt you didn't:

Charter schools attract more teachers because they hire people who don't necessarily have education degrees

Every inner-city school in the nation is already hiring teachers without education degrees.

In NYC they aren't hiring teachers without education degrees

 

[Professor Emeritus]

The charter schools are not perfect and some networks are better than others (some aren't good at all, and some are small upstart networks), Chicago is also a different beast compared to NYC, but the data shows that the charter schools even there are much better than the public schools.

No it doesn't.

Breh, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find an education researcher in any institute of higher learning and ask them, "Can I compare these two student bodies straight-up if one of them was self-selected via an application lottery process and the other was just enrolled by default?"

Again, find ANY professor who works with data and ask them that question. Ask if comparing those two groups straight-up is valid or not. Please.


If you started a charter school, and the only thing you did was institute a lottery process for your school so that only the students whose parents were looking for a better school and knew how to navigate the application process could attend, then you otherwise taught exactly the same as a public school, your average scores would be higher solely by the fact that you've already weeded out a bunch of low-performing students through the existence of a separate application process alone.

 

[ISO]

Nah dude.. They are just moving kids through the system. All the numbers are doctored and it shows once the kids get their diploma and go on to college or the real world. Thats documented as well.

How is this documented? When kids get their diploma and go to college they outperform the children who went to public school. Colleges are doctoring the academic performances of charter school graduates. C'mon dude.

The public schools are the definition of moving kids through the system.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Those are fukking Teach for America teachers and those from other pipelines.

Only a couple hundred teachers even get accepted by these programs. Those people can teach with bachelor's degrees but still have to pass those certification exams, still have to have a master's degree within 5 years, still need a certain amount of hours of professional development, their teacher prep program is their internship which is akin to the student teaching experience.

I also never said that NYC public schools only hire teachers with education degrees as I further specified that NYC teachers come in two varieties those that went through traditional teacher education programs and those that went through alternative pipelines and received instruction and experience similar to those who go through traditional education programs. You made it seem like any average Joe with a bachelor's degree in any subject can walk into NYC schools and teach. No, you can't do that, you have to be an education major or go through the pipeline and get certs and additional education. Stop misconstruing and complicating things this just like I never stating that firing teachers was a "solution".

Yes, you can. I literally walked out of a server room and into a HS classroom.

CTE teachers be certified without a degree if we have equivalent work experience. I taught the first three years in a charter school before getting my transitional A cert and then had another 4 or 5 years to complete the initial reqs before applying again.

As someone with almost 10 years experience teaching in NYC charter schools in District 10 I can say most of what you have said in this thread about the topic ranges from half truths to uncut bullshyt. The practice of "lowering the denominator" is very real and internal post-graduation stats are abysmal and shows our students perform significantly worse in college and drop out at a much higher rate than their peers in the "low performing" public hs's in our building (numbers are worse when you exclude the athletes).

We just won a fight to keep Success Academy from setting up shop further uptown in X113 for these very same reasons. Public education is broken because of people like you that think they know better than the educators on the ground actually doing the work.

 

[ISO]

No.

Breh, there are a huge proportion of teachers who get hired before they have an education degree. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. I'm really tired of talking to you about this subject because you're just saying shyt that everyone knows isn't true.

Here are the exact statistics for New York for 2016-2018:

https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northeast/pdf/REL_2022109.pdf

3,313 teachers earned certificates through "Alternative Pathway" (meaning they were enrolled in a certificate program when hired but had not completed an education degree beforehand) and another 5,130 teachers earned certificates through "Individual Evaluation" (meaning they did not meet NY's education program requirements or the Alternative Pathway of current enrollment, but proved through transcripts and work history that they were qualified enough to teach).

And guess what - a full HALF of those teachers with alternative credentials were in high-need urban NYC schools. Meaning those schools are already hiring a ton of people without education degrees, likely based on need.

The only grain of truth in your claim is that charter schools were more likely to have completely uncredentialed teachers. There were 1,173 teachers hired in New York who have no credential at all, and 79% of those were in charter schools. But you didn't claim uncredentialed, you claimed no education degree, and there were many thousands more who didn't have that.

Personally, when I started teaching it was via an "Emergency Credential", which I qualified for solely by having a bachelor's degree and being enrolled in a credential program. And most of the other new teachers I knew in the city were hired the same way.







Bullshyt you didn't:

Lol I'm seriously starting to questing your reading comprehension, really seems like you're just replying for sake of argument rather than understand what is being said. Also you take things extremely literal and disregard the further explanations of the things I say.

I said charters school do not necessarily need to hire teachers with education degrees.

I specifically said after that statement that teachers fall within two groups, those who were formally trained to be teachers through their college and those who went through alternative pathways which I'm well aware of and consider to be similar to those who went through traditional programs. I also know some of these teachers that are hired don't meed the credentials but ultimately if they plan on making a career out of teaching they will eventually need to meet those requirements, so yes although some teachers are currently teaching through a probationary period they will need to pass those tests to continue teaching. I also know that those teacher's are usually hired in high-need urban schools, because public school teachers don't want to be in the worst schools, I am also aware of the hard to staff differential which pays more money to teachers hired in these difficult schools. All of this by the way is just a larger indictment on the public schools.

 

[ISO]

No it doesn't.

Breh, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find an education researcher in any institute of higher learning and ask them, "Can I compare these two student bodies straight-up if one of them was self-selected via an application lottery process and the other was just enrolled by default?"

Again, find ANY professor who works with data and ask them that question. Ask if comparing those two groups straight-up is valid or not. Please.


If you started a charter school, and the only thing you did was institute a lottery process for your school so that only the students whose parents were looking for a better school and knew how to navigate the application process could attend, then you otherwise taught exactly the same as a public school, your average scores would be higher solely by the fact that you've already weeded out a bunch of low-performing students through the existence of a separate application process alone.

The lottery process is mandated by law, you understand this right?

This "navigation" process you're talking about is not too much different than filling out a public school application and the existence of charters is pretty well known by these communities, you understand this right?

You do understand that unions and politicians are prohibiting charter schools from gaining real estate to expand their operations and accept more children. There are literally prohibitions when buildings are sold for them to not be converted into schools, you understand this right?

 

[Wildhundreds]

How is this documented? When kids get their diploma and go to college they outperform the children who went to public school. Colleges are doctoring the academic performances of charter school graduates. C'mon dude.

The public schools are the definition of moving kids through the system.

I said doctoring because its really college acceptance rate vs those who actually went. The grading scale in charter schools are different than public schools as well. Im just letting you know that there are kids at public schools that can perform and even out perform kids at charter schools. The problematic kids at public schools will perform bad at any school IMO because teaching is something thats done at school and reinforced at home. This issue has a lot of layers thats bigger than just the resources at any given school.

 

[Silky Johnson]

No.

Breh, there are a huge proportion of teachers who get hired before they have an education degree. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. I'm really tired of talking to you about this subject because you're just saying shyt that everyone knows isn't true.

Here are the exact statistics for New York for 2016-2018:

https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northeast/pdf/REL_2022109.pdf

3,313 teachers earned certificates through "Alternative Pathway" (meaning they were enrolled in a certificate program when hired but had not completed an education degree beforehand) and another 5,130 teachers earned certificates through "Individual Evaluation" (meaning they did not meet NY's education program requirements or the Alternative Pathway of current enrollment, but proved through transcripts and work history that they were qualified enough to teach).

And guess what - a full HALF of those teachers with alternative credentials were in high-need urban NYC schools. Meaning those schools are already hiring a ton of people without education degrees, likely based on need.

The only grain of truth in your claim is that charter schools were more likely to have completely uncredentialed teachers. There were 1,173 teachers hired in New York who have no credential at all, and 79% of those were in charter schools. But you didn't claim uncredentialed, you claimed no education degree, and there were many thousands more who didn't have that.

Personally, when I started teaching it was via an "Emergency Credential", which I qualified for solely by having a bachelor's degree and being enrolled in a credential program. And most of the other new teachers I knew in the city were hired the same way.







Bullshyt you didn't:

I literally hopped in the thread to post this. I started teaching in 14-15 for a charter school until becoming certified under pathway b

IMO, Differentiated Instruction , teaching to the test, and these 19th century teaching models rebranded with 21st century buzzwords are what's really hindering public education

 

[ISO]

I said doctoring because its really college acceptance rate vs those who actually went. The grading scale in charter schools are different than public schools as well. Im just letting you know that there are kids at public schools that can perform and even out perform kids at charter schools. The problematic kids at public schools will perform bad at any school IMO because teaching is something thats done at school and reinforced at home. This issue has a lot of layers thats bigger than just the resources at any given school.

The grading scale from public school to public school can differ just as it does in charter schools.

Of course there are kids at public schools who can outperform kids in charter schools. There are public schools that produce superior results than charter schools. It really all depends.