Tupac Shakur - "Changes" - Let's Talk About This Timeless Piece

[HendriX]

So people don't appreciate Nas, Big or Rakim or Em? (The more "lyrical" rappers).

It's like I said before, you can make good music using either style...it's just how well you use whatever technique you're using.

Of course they do..but i didnt wanna mention them since that's blatant as fukk.

when it comes to extreme elite complex lyrics..NONE of them are on Ras Kass Soul on Ice level tho..also notice how all 3 of the niqqas you mentioned are less "complex" than they were in their beginning days.

Nas on Verbal Intercouse is not the Nas on Daughters
Jay on Dead Presidents is not Jay on 3 kings

etc..

 

[DallasTxRep]

@AVthaPHARAOH is a dapping muthafu#ka

 

[BlackZilla]

Of course they do..but i didnt wanna mention them since that's blatant as fukk.

How does this address my point? You pretty much tried to claim that lyrical rappers like Kweli are less appreciated than guys like Cube. So that's why I pointed out Nas, Rakim and so on for being considered legendary artists because of their lyrical ability.

when it comes to extreme elite complex lyrics..NONE of them are on Ras Kass Soul on Ice level tho...

This doesn't take away from my point though...the difference between guys like Rass Kass and guys like Nas and so on is more or less being able to stand out from the others, due to their skill. Rass Kass and so on weren't able to accomplish this because they were run of the mill musicians.

also notice how all 3 of the niqqas you mentioned are less "complex" than they were in their beginning days.

And you should also notice that the quality of their music also declined as a result.

It's not so much about being less complex, Eminem is still able to churn out multis like a mofo, it's just that musically he has fallen off. His Slim Shady persona is way more interesting than the Eminem that was on Relapse and Recovery.

Nas on Verbal Intercouse is not the Nas on Daughters

This is bullshyt, seeing that Locomotive, Black Bond and Nasty are on the same fukking album.

Nas hasn't fallen off lyrically, it's more because of the production of some of his last joints that made him less appealing musically. But in terms of lyrcism Nas has always been up there.

Jay on Dead Presidents is not Jay on 3 kings

etc..

Jay Z himself said that he dumbed down his lyrics to double his dollars. What do you think that means?

 

[HendriX]

How does this address my point? You pretty much tried to claim that lyrical rappers like Kweli are less appreciated than guys like Cube. So that's why I pointed out Nas, Rakim and so on for being considered legendary artists because of their lyrical ability.



This doesn't take away from my point though...the difference between guys like Rass Kass and guys like Nas and so on is more or less being able to stand out from the others, due to their skill. Rass Kass and so on weren't able to accomplish this because they were run of the mill musicians.



And you should also notice that the quality of their music also declined as a result.

It's not so much about being less complex, Eminem is still able to churn out multis like a mofo, it's just that musically he has fallen off. His Slim Shady persona is way more interesting than the Eminem that was on Relapse and Recovery.



This is bullshyt, seeing that Locomotive, Black Bond and Nasty are on the same fukking album.

Nas hasn't fallen off lyrically, it's more because of the production of some of his last joints that made him less appealing musically. But in terms of lyrcism Nas has always been up there.



Jay Z himself said that he dumbed down his lyrics to double his dollars. What do you think that means?

I agree with you on a lot of points..but even as a huge Nas fan..i cant sit here and claim he's still the lyricist he once was..

He still has his moments where completely blacks out..Wheres the Love comes to mind

But he cant do that for a whole album anymore..I dont care as long as he keeps making good music..but it is what it is.

Rakim was the first of his kind..so that automatically makes him more respected and appreciated than Kweli.

Let me ask you this tho.
Why do you think most lyrical rappers these days arent as appreciated as say 15-20 years ago?

 

[blackslash]

Of course they do..but i didnt wanna mention them since that's blatant as fukk.

when it comes to extreme elite complex lyrics..NONE of them are on Ras Kass Soul on Ice level tho..also notice how all 3 of the niqqas you mentioned are less "complex" than they were in their beginning days.

Nas on Verbal Intercouse is not the Nas on Daughters
Jay on Dead Presidents is not Jay on 3 kings

etc..

Good God you're an iidiot

You say things such as metaphors, DE/TE's, similes, etc. are only good for battling??

Are you an idiot

Even all the way back to ancient writing have things such as the things Ive listed been used to make the unraveling of a message more enjoyable and more worthy.

Its what keeps people coming back to get more and more and discover new things they didnt get before.

Its whats used to to make a message or concept much more stronger with reference to other things/experiences.

And for you to come here and belitle that aspect of rap is ridiculous.

You should seriously smack yourself.

Its all about having a balance..clearly lyricism should be the at the lower half of the priority list when it comes to makin a classic rap record.

Things like flow, delivery, message/concepts, etc. do take precedence when it comes to the general population

But lyricism is a useful aspect of rap in that not only can it give people the wow factor on your technique..but it can make songs more enjoyable on a conscious level(when I say conscious I mean consciously listening to the song and finding the gems of the lyrics which if written creatively makes people come back for more)

Thats why people are able to read the bible again and again..its through that metaphoric and parable style writing that makes reading it a new experience all the time...thats what I hear anyways

Now as artists, artists should find a balance with all the aspects of rap to be a complete rap artist

 

[HendriX]

Good God you're an iidiot

You say things such as metaphors, DE/TE's, similes, etc. are only good for battling??

Are you an idiot

Even all the way back to ancient writing have things such as the things Ive listed been used to make the unraveling of a message more enjoyable and more worthy.

Its what keeps people coming back to get more and more and discover new things they didnt get before.

Its whats used to to make a message or concept much more stronger with reference to other things/experiences.

And for you to come here and belitle that aspect of rap is ridiculous.

You should seriously smack yourself.

Its all about having a balance..clearly lyricism should be the at the lower half of the priority list when it comes to makin a classic rap record.

Things like flow, delivery, message/concepts, etc. do take precedence when it comes to the general population

But lyricism is a useful aspect of rap in that not only can it give people the wow factor on your technique..but it can make songs more enjoyable on a conscious level(when I say conscious I mean consciously listening to the song and finding the gems of the lyrics which if written creatively makes people come back for more)

Thats why people are able to read the bible again and again..its through that metaphoric and parable style writing that makes reading it a new experience all the time...thats what I hear anyways

Now as artists, artists should find a balance with all the aspects of rap to be a complete rap artist

So you sit there with your encyclopedia and dictionary in hand instead of trying to ENJOY the MUSIC.

"dmx is on the level of chief keef" ass niqqa

 

[blackslash]

So you sit there with your encyclopedia and dictionary in hand instead of trying to ENJOY the MUSIC.

"dmx is on the level of chief keef" ass niqqa

I didnt....u troll...u almost got me breh

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

No breh just no

Thats has to do more with his delivery and message..

Being lyrical is the technical aspect of rap aside from flow(with exception to the aspect of alliteration) and delivery.

Pac was never lyrical

Nas is lyrical
Jay is lyrical
Biggie is lyrical
Pac is not lyrical

He was never about writing metaphors, double/triple entendres, using heavy uses of alliteration which portrays a talent of owning the english vocabulary..
etc.

Pac was never that.

And the fact you call those things forced shows me you arent a rap artist..

To downplay the creativity of lyricism in that way as to call it forced shows that you dont understand why a writer would creatively portray a message with those technical aspects.

It is Pac's delivery..the emotion u can feel in his words, his messages and his character that makes him as beloved as much as he is

Dnt you ever ever ever in your life attribute the aspect of lyricism to him

You don't know what the fuk you talkin bout

 

[BlackZilla]

I agree with you on a lot of points..but even as a huge Nas fan..i cant sit here and claim he's still the lyricist he once was..

He still has his moments where completely blacks out..Wheres the Love comes to mind

But he cant do that for a whole album anymore..I dont care as long as he keeps making good music..but it is what it is.

I think it more has to do with his hunger (Or lack thereof).

Nasty Nas was pretty much killing his features back in the day (Like his Live at the Barbeque verse), and then dropped Illmatic. Because back then, he had something to prove. Just like the Eminem that was on Renegade that killed Jay, or the 50 cent that was on Power of the dollar/Guess who's back. When you're hungry and determined you will do things that you've never thought that you can do. It brings out the aboslute best

But over time, as you get more comfortable and that hunger fades, you become more complacent, or even lazier. Unless something happens that will revitalise you...you'll either just remain at a particular level (Like Nas) or you'll fall off (Like 50).

To me Nas is just as dope a lyricist as he was back then. Only now he' isn't as hungry, as he was before.

This isn't unique to only artists though, this is life in general. As time goes by you become less and less the monster you were in your prime.

Rakim was the first of his kind..so that automatically makes him more respected and appreciated than Kweli.

Of course. But still...Rakim is respected for his sheer talent in lyrcism, and was the dude that raised the bar in terms of the MC's pen game.

Let me ask you this tho.
Why do you think most lyrical rappers these days arent as appreciated as say 15-20 years ago?

Well for starters, I just want to point out that it's not as black and white as "Non-lyrical rappers being more appreciated". A lot of non lyrical rappers suck major a$$ too, and are rightfully shytted on. (Soulja Boy, Lil B and so on)

Then there is the fact that now there is more of a formula as to what will get you put on. It's not so much about how well you can rap anymore, but more or less who good a club anthem you can make. Mainstream hip-hop is mostly comprised of club anthems and "Whip-music" (As you Americans would say), you don't really have to be lyrical to make a club anthem. You just need a catchy chorus and a catchy beat.... while rap songs of any other kind of subject matter, or any decent level of lyricism are relgated to the underground, so you would have to search for those.

You should also note that, lyrical rappers are appreciated, even nowadays. Look at the love the Kendrick is getting for his album. Guys like Sykzoo have fans (Too bad he'll never get that big break )

I think you question is not so much "Why are lyrical rappers not appreciated", but "why aren't they as popular as before in the mainstream", and well I would just say that's the consequence of any musical genre that gets popular and money gets involved. Sooner or later businessmen come up with a formula to make money and the artform is affected as a result. The gimmicky cash grabs rise to the top and everyone else falls to the way-side.

Anyways, back to my original point...you can make good music whether or not you're lyrical or not. Rap is music, so no matter what style you use, if you're original and your songs have some kind of meaning then you're gonna be dope regardless of how lyrical you are...Pac and Nas are good examples of this...both dudes on either side of the fence in terms of rapping technique that both managed to create classic material.

 

[Still Benefited]

Good God you're an iidiot

You say things such as metaphors, DE/TE's, similes, etc. are only good for battling??

Are you an idiot

Even all the way back to ancient writing have things such as the things Ive listed been used to make the unraveling of a message more enjoyable and more worthy.

Its what keeps people coming back to get more and more and discover new things they didnt get before.

Its whats used to to make a message or concept much more stronger with reference to other things/experiences.

And for you to come here and belitle that aspect of rap is ridiculous.

You should seriously smack yourself.

Its all about having a balance..clearly lyricism should be the at the lower half of the priority list when it comes to makin a classic rap record.

Things like flow, delivery, message/concepts, etc. do take precedence when it comes to the general population

But lyricism is a useful aspect of rap in that not only can it give people the wow factor on your technique..but it can make songs more enjoyable on a conscious level(when I say conscious I mean consciously listening to the song and finding the gems of the lyrics which if written creatively makes people come back for more)

Thats why people are able to read the bible again and again..its through that metaphoric and parable style writing that makes reading it a new experience all the time...thats what I hear anyways

Now as artists, artists should find a balance with all the aspects of rap to be a complete rap artist

People don't read the bible just to skim thru it like "oooh oooh oooh let me get to the parables.....I think ud agree they read it over and over again for the powerful message,the fact its stuff in it that relates to every situation u might be going through good and bad,they read it to watch Jesus shyt on people not as real as him,and to be in awe like "damn he made this world in 7 days"...in pacs case 3 days he made that 7th day theory.

Everything I described is the reason Pacs catalogue is so beloved and considered timeless....ya bible metaphor is way off imo and fits pac more...how can u compare triple entendres about mostly bullshyt to the parables the bible be kicking....the parables hit home becuz it relates to peoples real lives,they don't care about the damn complexity of itt...it simply relates like pacs music,people can find deeper meaning in pacs lyrics too,or a situation pac wrote about that's direct in its message may still hit home even tho it wuznt intended for them.....a pregnant female might hear Brendas Baby and decide not to get an abortion and let her baby live,and it might make a female go and get an abortion so she won't have to put her baby and herself through what brenda did.

That's the good thing about music,GREAT music does that period,u can do it with or without extreme lyricism.....sum nikkas do it better than nikkas who use extreme lyricism,and sum who aren't as complex do it better than those with the complex lyricism.

Powerful music is powerful music imo...u can be as complex and have a positive message all u want to don't mean its gon hit home......u got lyricist and u got wordsmiths imo there's a difference....all the greats are wordsmiths no matter the level of lyricism....the way they put words together,in the order they put them in is what blows your mind....the complexity of it won't move you years down the line...don't sell a Nas or Jay short thinkin u like them just cuz they rhymeschemes seem complex people.

 

[blackslash]

People don't read the bible just to skim thru it like "oooh oooh oooh let me get to the parables.....I think ud agree they read it over and over again for the powerful message,the fact its stuff in it that relates to every situation u might be going through good and bad,they read it to watch Jesus shyt on people not as real as him,and to be in awe like "damn he made this world in 7 days"...in pacs case 3 days he made that 7th day theory.

Everything I described is the reason Pacs catalogue is so beloved and considered timeless....ya bible metaphor is way off imo and fits pac more...how can u compare triple entendres about mostly bullshyt to the parables the bible be kicking....the parables hit home becuz it relates to peoples real lives,they don't care about the damn complexity of itt...it simply relates like pacs music,people can find deeper meaning in pacs lyrics too,or a situation pac wrote about that's direct in its message may still hit home even tho it wuznt intended for them.....a pregnant female might hear Brendas Baby and decide not to get an abortion and let her baby live,and it might make a female go and get an abortion so she won't have to put her baby and herself through what brenda did.

That's the good thing about music,GREAT music does that period,u can do it with or without extreme lyricism.....sum nikkas do it better than nikkas who use extreme lyricism,and sum who aren't as complex do it better than those with the complex lyricism.

Powerful music is powerful music imo...u can be as complex and have a positive message all u want to don't mean its gon hit home......u got lyricist and u got wordsmiths imo there's a difference....all the greats are wordsmiths no matter the level of lyricism....the way they put words together,in the order they put them in is what blows your mind....the complexity of it won't move you years down the line...don't sell a Nas or Jay short thinkin u like them just cuz they rhymeschemes seem complex people.

Even tho this is sort of a rebuttal to my post.this is one of the greatest post Ive seen on this board


Daaammnn breh uve been one of my fave posters on this sht...Sht man. remind me to rep you

And to the bold..trust me I know..why u think I aint listening to that boring ass nikka Immortal technique

 

[HendriX]

I think it more has to do with his hunger (Or lack thereof).

Nasty Nas was pretty much killing his features back in the day (Like his Live at the Barbeque verse), and then dropped Illmatic. Because back then, he had something to prove. Just like the Eminem that was on Renegade that killed Jay, or the 50 cent that was on Power of the dollar/Guess who's back. When you're hungry and determined you will do things that you've never thought that you can do. It brings out the aboslute best

But over time, as you get more comfortable and that hunger fades, you become more complacent, or even lazier. Unless something happens that will revitalise you...you'll either just remain at a particular level (Like Nas) or you'll fall off (Like 50).

To me Nas is just as dope a lyricist as he was back then. Only now he' isn't as hungry, as he was before.

This isn't unique to only artists though, this is life in general. As time goes by you become less and less the monster you were in your prime.



Of course. But still...Rakim is respected for his sheer talent in lyrcism, and was the dude that raised the bar in terms of the MC's pen game.



Well for starters, I just want to point out that it's not as black and white as "Non-lyrical rappers being more appreciated". A lot of non lyrical rappers suck major a$$ too, and are rightfully shytted on. (Soulja Boy, Lil B and so on)

Then there is the fact that now there is more of a formula as to what will get you put on. It's not so much about how well you can rap anymore, but more or less who good a club anthem you can make. Mainstream hip-hop is mostly comprised of club anthems and "Whip-music" (As you Americans would say), you don't really have to be lyrical to make a club anthem. You just need a catchy chorus and a catchy beat.... while rap songs of any other kind of subject matter, or any decent level of lyricism are relgated to the underground, so you would have to search for those.

You should also note that, lyrical rappers are appreciated, even nowadays. Look at the love the Kendrick is getting for his album. Guys like Sykzoo have fans (Too bad he'll never get that big break )

I think you question is not so much "Why are lyrical rappers not appreciated", but "why aren't they as popular as before in the mainstream", and well I would just say that's the consequence of any musical genre that gets popular and money gets involved. Sooner or later businessmen come up with a formula to make money and the artform is affected as a result. The gimmicky cash grabs rise to the top and everyone else falls to the way-side.

Anyways, back to my original point...you can make good music whether or not you're lyrical or not. Rap is music, so no matter what style you use, if you're original and your songs have some kind of meaning then you're gonna be dope regardless of how lyrical you are...Pac and Nas are good examples of this...both dudes on either side of the fence in terms of rapping technique that both managed to create classic material.

Top 5 post..daps

 

[inndaskKy]

He was never about writing metaphors, double/triple entendres, using heavy uses of alliteration which portrays a talent of owning the english vocabulary..
etc.

Pac was never that.

 

[jadillac]

I Wonder if Heaven Gotta Ghetto >>>> Changes

Just my opinion.

 

[BlackZilla]

Powerful music is powerful music imo...u can be as complex and have a positive message all u want to don't mean its gon hit home......u got lyricist and u got wordsmiths imo there's a difference....all the greats are wordsmiths no matter the level of lyricism....the way they put words together,in the order they put them in is what blows your mind....the complexity of it won't move you years down the line...don't sell a Nas or Jay short thinkin u like them just cuz they rhymeschemes seem complex people.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree with what you say and this isn't as much as an argument, but I don't think that the bold is mutually exclusive...the way that you put words together does affect the complexity of your lyrics in a sense. How you use literary devices and to what extent you use them does affect just how easy it is to really decipher what you're saying.

But like I said, I agree with you. Classic music has been made regardless of the level of lyricism. It's more or less how they managed to get their point across along with what they were talking about that made them great.