Two Jews debate about Jesus (Good Conversation)

[DoubleClutch]

Just randomly found this video. They cover some good topics like Prophecy, Oral Torah, Jewish Traditions, Jesus, Christianity, etc….

I Learned a few new things

But I have a question,

Someone Jewish (@Koichos) has to clear up to me what the Oral Torah is, why it’s needed and how it works because the way the Orthodox Jew explained it has me like

The analogy he used makes it sound like the equivalent of Hadiths to the Quran

Also, what does he mean by “we are a stubborn people” and it being a GOOD THING?

Israel being “stubborn” is the reason for most their problems or situations in the Bible narrative featured in many instances (such as them wandering the wilderness)

A (messianic) jew who believes in Jesus makes an Orthodox Jews “blood boil”

This can’t be the opinion of ALL Orthodox Jews I know…. Same as not all Jews REFUSE to read the “New Testament” and “don’t care what’s in it”

I think most religious/practicing Jews are curious about the gospels at least and if not them, definitely the rabbis Id assume must know all about Jesus and his teachings just to

One big takeaway from the video is the question:

how are non Jews supposed to know about God and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob….Moses, and all the Noahide laws, etc if Jewish people don’t actively go out, live amongst and teach non Jews?

Is THIS where they see the need/role of ISLAM to fulfill?

Are Muslims actually doing the Jews a favor? @MMS

 

[MMS]

One big takeaway from the video is the question:

how are non Jews supposed to know about God and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob….Moses, and all the Noahide laws, etc if Jewish people don’t actively go out, live amongst and teach non Jews?

Is THIS where they see the need/role of ISLAM to fulfill?

Are Muslims actually doing the Jews a favor? @MMS

i dunno about the rest of the video but you're spot on with the last two lines with respect to "how are non-jews suppoesd to know"

remember, "rhe religion of abraham"

who is Abraham? he is a man waxened old during his time in Genesis. He does not have children until hes in his 70s or 80s

with respect to the time period, thats absurd... most people in ancient times got married and had children pretty quick
remember "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God"

what if the story about Abraham is as much truth as it is foolishness (hear me out)?

you don't know how many times God has "made" Abraham. So with Abraham you are most likely not keeping score/time to know how slowly or quickly God is causing people to know his people (across generations)

when I watch chess masters play, when they take the opponent's pieces i rarely see them shuffle them off the board and display them to onlookers

Spoiler

Surah Yusuf - 6 - Quran.com

And so will your Lord choose you ˹O Joseph˺, and teach you the interpretation of dreams, and perfect His favour upon you and the descendants of Jacob—...

quran.com

 

[DoubleClutch]

who is Abraham? he is a man waxened old during his

what if the story about Abraham is as much truth as it is foolishness (hear me out)?

you don't know how many times God has "made" Abraham.

You might need to explain what you mean by these statements.

And the whole video is good you should watch it.

I think the (messianic) Jew point is that JESUS or his disciples at least (mainly Paul) did the work in spreading the knowledge of the God of Abraham and Bible stories to non Jews/gentiles

Obviously that’s historically accurate.

But the religious narrative that Jews and Muslims later would develop is that Jesus “only came for Jews” and Jews aren’t supposed to evangelize but remain set apart

Like the Orthodox Jew said in the video, it’s not their desire that any non Jew ethnically at least “convert” to being jewish

Anyways, it’s a pretty complicated idea/theory but kinda makes sense when you realize how Arabs began islam and how that developed into a NEW religion

But now we’re back talking about Islam again

 

[MMS]

You might need to explain what you mean by these statements.

And the whole video is good you should watch it.

I think the (messianic) Jew point is that JESUS or his disciples at least (mainly Paul) did the work in spreading the knowledge of the God of Abraham and Bible stories to non Jews/gentiles

Obviously that’s historically accurate.

But the religious narrative that Jews and Muslims later would develop is that Jesus “only came for Jews” and Jews aren’t supposed to evangelize but remain set apart

Like the Orthodox Jew said in the video, it’s not their desire that any non Jew ethnically at least “convert” to being jewish

that it might represent a polemic against waiting to have children

his first son, his name means "God hears", and his second name means "He will laugh"

and Jesus did only come for the Jews. In his repeated statements he said he must "suffer many things by the chief scribes"

if those words are from God that can be expanded to mean more than it appears

 

[DoubleClutch]

that it might represent a polemic against waiting to have children

his first son, his name means "God hears", and his second name means "He will laugh"

and Jesus did only come for the Jews. In his repeated statements he said he must "suffer many things by the chief scribes"

if those words are from God that can be expanded to mean more than it appears

Yes we know Jesus “came for the Jews” but what about after he died?

Did he fail?

What did he tell the Jews who followed him do?

What did Paul do?

Jesus fulfilled his mission

In Jewish and Muslim terms Jesus was a failure


Even though the Quran clearly says Jesus followers will remain superior until judgement day

[Aal 'Imraan 3:55].

If Jesus just came for Jews and only Jews could be “Christians”, this sura wouldn’t be possible (not in 7th century Arabia or even now) and it’s a lie because most Jews today don’t follow Jesus

And who are the TRUE followers of Jesus from his death until the rise of Islam which Allah is referring to here?

But I digress….

 

[MMS]

Yes we know Jesus “came for the Jews” but what about after he died?

what do you mean

don't you mean: what about after he was resurrected from the dead?

why not just link the quranic passage

Surah Ali 'Imran - 55 - Quran.com

˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and elevate your follo...

quran.com

Surah Maryam - 1-98 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Maryam. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 19 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Mary" in English and consists of 98 ...

quran.com

 

[Koichos]

Someone Jewish (@Koichos) has to clear up to me what the Oral Torah is, why it’s needed and how it works because the way the Orthodox Jew explained it has me like

Like the ‘Written Torah’, the ‘Oral Tοrah’ was given on Mount Hοrev in the Sіnaі Desert:

וַיֹּ֨אֿמֶר יְיָ֜ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֗הֿ עֲלֵ֥הֿ אֵלַ֛י הָהָ֖רָהֿ וֶֽהְיֵהֿ־שָׁ֑ם וְאֶתְּנָ֨הֿ לְךָ֜ אֶתֿ־לֻחֹ֣תֿ הָאֶ֗בֶֿן וְהַתּוֹרָה֙ וְהַמִּצְוָ֔הֿ אֲשֶׁ֥ר כָּתַֿ֖בְֿתִּי לְהֽוֹרֹתָֽֿם׃​

Come up onto the mountain to Me and wait there, and then I will give you (i) the ‘Luhοt’ that I have inscribed, AND (ii) the ‘Tοrah’, AND (iii) the ‘Mіtzvah’ for you to teach to them. (Sh'mοt 24:12)

In this verse, God promises to give Mοsheh three things:

1. the ‘Luhοt’ — the pair of stone slabs
2. ‘AND the Tοrah’ — the five books of Mοsheh
3. ‘AND the Mіtzvah’ — the oral explanations of the Tοrah

The last of these (the ‘Mіtzvah’) refers to the explanations of how each of His Mіtzvοt ought to be performed, which was far too lengthy for Mοsheh to write it out in full on the mountain and which he was therefore told to teach Yіsra´el orally; it was these ‘explanations’ that God had spent 40 days and nights teaching to Mοsheh on the mountain.

כל המּצוות שנתנו לו למשה בסיני בפרושן נתנו שנאמַר "ואתנה לך את לוחת האבן והתורה והמצוה". תורה—זו תורה שבכתב, ומצוה—זה פרושה; וצונו לעשות התורה על פי המצוה. ומצוה זו היא הנקראת "תורה שבעל פה"׃​

All of the mitzvοt that were given to Mοsheh at Sіnaі were given complete with explanations of how they were to be done, as it is written ‘I will give you the Luhοt, AND the Tοrah, AND the Mіtzvah’ (Sh'mοt 24:12). ‘Tοrah’ means the Written Tοrah and ‘Mіtzvah’ means the explanations, and He has commanded us to do the Tοrah according to the Mіtzvah. This ‘Mіtzvah’ is what is referred to as the ‘Oral Tοrah’. (Ramba"m, Introduction to Mіshneh Tοrah)

The plural תורות tοrοt (i.e., ‘Tοrahs’) reflects the fact that Yіsra´el was given two Tοrahs at Sіnaі, a form that can be found in all three sections of the Tana"ch’s 24 books:

1. in the Tοrah (5 Books of Mοsheh), in B'reshіt 26:5, Sh'mοt 18:20 and Vayyіḳra 26:46;
2. in the N'vі´іm (8 ‘Prophetic Books’), in Y'sha`yahu 24:5 and Y'hezkel 44:24; and
3. in the K'tuvіm (11 ‘Other Writings’), in T'hіllіm 105:45 and N'hemyah 9:13.

---

Evidence of the ‘Oral Tοrah’ can be found throughout the Tana"ch itself, from the time of the Judges roughly 3,000 years ago to the post-exilic books (e.g., `Ezra-N'hemyah).

To keep it short, I’ll give just a few of examples:

• In the ‘written Tοrah’, there is an express command to make a blessing after having eaten (D'varіm 8:10) - but nothing concerning before the meal. However, in the ‘Oral Torah’ there is also one to be made before eating (ברכות פ"ו)—an observance we see in the time of Sha´ul, the first king of united Yіsra´el (Sh'mu´el Alef 9:13).
• David (T'hіllіm 55:18) and Danіyyel (Danіyyel 6:11) prayed three times a day - morning, afternoon, evening - as is brought down in the ‘Oral Torah’ (ברכות פ"ד ה"א).

In Danіyyel 1:8-12 we see that Danіyyel could not eat the king’s food, but he would eat raw seeds. Similarly, the wine he could not drink, only water. Both of these would defile him, as verse 8 puts it. The ‘written Tοrah’ makes no mention of any such restrictions. There are, however, two laws discussed explicitly in the ‘Oral Torah’ that do:

1. the first is a prohibition of eating food cooked by a gentile (ע"ז לח ע"א), which doesn’t apply to anything that can be eaten raw; and
2. the second is a prohibition of drinking wine touched by a gentile (ע"ז נז ע"א).

Danіyyel would have become defiled by the king’s food and wine by partaking of them, so he followed the ‘Oral Torah’ by restricting himself to raw seeds and water.

See Y'sha`yahu 58:13, Yіrm'yahu 17:21-22, `Amos 8:5 and N'hemyah 10:32, 13:15-19 for the chastising of

1. buying and selling (שבת קנ ע"א, ביעא לז ע"א),
2. carrying from one domain to the other (שבת צו ע"ב),
3. working or riding animals (שבת מג ע"א, קכח ע"ב, קנד ע"ב),
4. cutting or harvesting produce from a tree (שבת פ"ז ה"ב), and
5. squeezing or wringing produce to extract its juice (שבת קמג ע"א-ב)

on shabbat and on festive/holydays. All five categories are found explicitly stated only in the ‘Oral Torah’.

---

Perhaps the most important of all.. our Tοrah was given without vowels, or any marks to show the ends of sentences—they begin, end, and are punctuated according to the ‘Oral Tοrah’ which had been handed down with the actual letters of the text. More than half of the world’s population (~4.5b people) adhere to it whether they like it or not.

Consider קְרֵי וּכְתִיב ḳ'reі uchtіv, an Aramaic technical term referring to the variations which exist between the way certain words are written (כְּתִיב k'tiv) in handwritten scrolls by trained scribes and the way these same words are actually vocalized (קְרֵי ḳ'rei) when read aloud. You cannot have one without the other as both rely on received tradition.

The text of the Tana"ch is rendered according to the ḳ'reі (read tradition) and not the k'tіv (the written tradition). Anyone who doubt this need only look at Y'sha`yahu 63:9. All translations follow בכל צרתם לו צר, the ḳ'reі ... but that is NOT what is actually written. If you translated according to the k'tiv you would have to follow בכל צרתם לא צר.

Jew or gentile, all translators rely on the ‘Oral Tοrah’ and affirm that the Jews have the true tradition from Mοsheh and the prophets. This is the very reason we know whether

• חלב is vocalized as חָלָב or חֵֽלֶב
• יראו is vocalized as יִרְאוּ or יִֽרְאוּ or יְראוּ
• נחש is vocalized as נָחָשׁ or נַֽחַשׁ
• זכר is vocalized as זָכָר or זֶֽכֶר or זָכַר
• ההרה is vocalized as הָהָֽרָה or הֶהָרָה
• שמרה is vocalized as שָׁמְרָה or שְׁמָרָהּ or שׇׁמְרָהּ
• שמרו is vocalized as שָׁמְרוּ or שְׁמָרוֹ or שׇׁמְרוֹ
• נתנה is vocalized as נָתְנָה or נְתָנָהּ
• שבו is vocalized as שָׁבוּ or שָֽׁבוּ
• שתו is vocalized as שָׁתוּ or שָֽׁתוּ
• בנו is vocalized as בָּנוּ or בָּֽנוּ

and so on..

 

[Koichos]

that it might represent a polemic against waiting to have children

his first son, his name means "God hears", and his second name means "He will laugh"

and Jesus did only come for the Jews. In his repeated statements he said he must "suffer many things by the chief scribes"

if those words are from God that can be expanded to mean more than it appears

But why did AI pronounce the ח ḥ in חֲזַ"ל Ḥaza"l like the ch in ‘cheese’?

 

[MMS]

But why did AI pronounce the ח ḥ in חֲזַ"ל Ḥaza"l like the ch in ‘cheese’?

remember that post where I said they are trying to approximate the hasidim

Job 26:12 Hebrew Text Analysis

Spoiler

Rahab or Rachab?

We are living in a world of illusion

was looking for this and it appears the video was taken down but my studies brought me to a weird topic related to Jacob's ladder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_ladder_surface for clarification on a genus...

www.thecoli.com

 

[DoubleClutch]

Like the ‘Written Torah’, the ‘Oral Tοrah’ was given on Mount Hοrev in the Sіnaі Desert:
In this verse, God promises to give Mοsheh three things:

1. the ‘Luhοt’ — the pair of stone slabs
2. ‘AND the Tοrah’ — the five books of Mοsheh
3. ‘AND the Mіtzvah’ — the oral explanations of the Tοrah

The last of these (the ‘Mіtzvah’) refers to the explanations of how each of His Mіtzvοt ought to be performed, which was far too lengthy for Mοsheh to write it out in full on the mountain and which he was therefore told to teach Yіsra´el orally; it was these ‘explanations’ that God had spent 40 days and nights teaching to Mοsheh on the mountain.
The plural תורות tοrοt (i.e., ‘Tοrahs’) reflects the fact that Yіsra´el was given two Tοrahs at Sіnaі, a form that can be found in all three sections of the Tana"ch’s 24 books:

1. in the Tοrah (5 Books of Mοsheh), in B'reshіt 26:5, Sh'mοt 18:20 and Vayyіḳra 26:46;
2. in the N'vі´іm (8 ‘Prophetic Books’), in Y'sha`yahu 24:5 and Y'hezkel 44:24; and
3. in the K'tuvіm (11 ‘Other Writings’), in T'hіllіm 105:45 and N'hemyah 9:13.

---

Evidence of the ‘Oral Tοrah’ can be found throughout the Tana"ch itself, from the time of the Judges roughly 3,000 years ago to the post-exilic books (e.g., `Ezra-N'hemyah).

To keep it short, I’ll give just a few of examples:

• In the ‘written Tοrah’, there is an express command to make a blessing after having eaten (D'varіm 8:10) - but nothing concerning before the meal. However, in the ‘Oral Torah’ there is also one to be made before eating (ברכות פ"ו)—an observance we see in the time of Sha´ul, the first king of united Yіsra´el (Sh'mu´el Alef 9:13).
• David (T'hіllіm 55:18) and Danіyyel (Danіyyel 6:11) prayed three times a day - morning, afternoon, evening - as is brought down in the ‘Oral Torah’ (ברכות פ"ד ה"א).

In Danіyyel 1:8-12 we see that Danіyyel could not eat the king’s food, but he would eat raw seeds. Similarly, the wine he could not drink, only water. Both of these would defile him, as verse 8 puts it. The ‘written Tοrah’ makes no mention of any such restrictions. There are, however, two laws discussed explicitly in the ‘Oral Torah’ that do:

1. the first is a prohibition of eating food cooked by a gentile (ע"ז לח ע"א), which doesn’t apply to anything that can be eaten raw; and
2. the second is a prohibition of drinking wine touched by a gentile (ע"ז נז ע"א).

Danіyyel would have become defiled by the king’s food and wine by partaking of them, so he followed the ‘Oral Torah’ by restricting himself to raw seeds and water.

See Y'sha`yahu 58:13, Yіrm'yahu 17:21-22, `Amos 8:5 and N'hemyah 10:32, 13:15-19 for the chastising of

1. buying and selling (שבת קנ ע"א, ביעא לז ע"א),
2. carrying from one domain to the other (שבת צו ע"ב),
3. working or riding animals (שבת מג ע"א, קכח ע"ב, קנד ע"ב),
4. cutting or harvesting produce from a tree (שבת פ"ז ה"ב), and
5. squeezing or wringing produce to extract its juice (שבת קמג ע"א-ב)

on shabbat and on festive/holydays. All five categories are found explicitly stated only in the ‘Oral Torah’.

---

Perhaps the most important of all.. our Tοrah was given without vowels, or any marks to show the ends of sentences—they begin, end, and are punctuated according to the ‘Oral Tοrah’ which had been handed down with the actual letters of the text. More than half of the world’s population (~4.5b people) adhere to it whether they like it or not.

Consider קְרֵי וּכְתִיב ḳ'reі uchtіv, an Aramaic technical term referring to the variations which exist between the way certain words are written (כְּתִיב k'tiv) in handwritten scrolls by trained scribes and the way these same words are actually vocalized (קְרֵי ḳ'rei) when read aloud. You cannot have one without the other as both rely on received tradition.

The text of the Tana"ch is rendered according to the ḳ'reі (read tradition) and not the k'tіv (the written tradition). Anyone who doubt this need only look at Y'sha`yahu 63:9. All translations follow בכל צרתם לו צר, the ḳ'reі ... but that is NOT what is actually written. If you translated according to the k'tiv you would have to follow בכל צרתם לא צר.

Jew or gentile, all translators rely on the ‘Oral Tοrah’ and affirm that the Jews have the true tradition from Mοsheh and the prophets. This is the very reason we know whether

• חלב is vocalized as חָלָב or חֵֽלֶב
• יראו is vocalized as יִרְאוּ or יִֽרְאוּ or יְראוּ
• נחש is vocalized as נָחָשׁ or נַֽחַשׁ
• זכר is vocalized as זָכָר or זֶֽכֶר or זָכַר
• ההרה is vocalized as הָהָֽרָה or הֶהָרָה
• שמרה is vocalized as שָׁמְרָה or שְׁמָרָהּ or שׇׁמְרָהּ
• שמרו is vocalized as שָׁמְרוּ or שְׁמָרוֹ or שׇׁמְרוֹ
• נתנה is vocalized as נָתְנָה or נְתָנָהּ
• שבו is vocalized as שָׁבוּ or שָֽׁבוּ
• שתו is vocalized as שָׁתוּ or שָֽׁתוּ
• בנו is vocalized as בָּנוּ or בָּֽנוּ

and so on..

I probably need to look deeper into the oral Torah

But from a few YouTube videos I watched



There’s some good points made above

Also what do you think about this:



I personally don’t put the oral Torah on the same level as the ACTUAL Torah but my opinion is pretty complex

I don’t think it’s bad as the Hadiths as far as reliability or its relation to the actual text it’s supposed to make sense off however

 

[Koichos]

I probably need to look deeper into the oral Torah

But from a few YouTube videos I watched



There’s some good points made above

Eh.. don’t waste your time.

Also what do you think about this:

Just one of many examples. The Tana"ch is full of them.

I personally don’t put the oral Torah on the same level as the ACTUAL Torah but my opinion is pretty complex

I don’t think it’s bad as the Hadiths as far as reliability or its relation to the actual text it’s supposed to make sense off however

Every time you read a translation of the Bible you are validating the Oral Tοrah.