Venezuela Crisis: Failed coup attempt by Juan Guaido; Military remains supporting Nicholas Maduro

FAH1223

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Naïve question : why is the whole world so preoccupied about Venezuela? There's bad leadership, poverty and people fleeing in tons of other countries.

Can't only be the oil right?

The migration is a big problem for Colombia, Brazil, Ecuador, Peru...

I was in Trinidad a couple weeks ago and some Venezuelans have trecked there. Guyana as well but they have gotten very strict with Venezuelan migrants requiring visas straight up.

In October, a colleague of mine who is Venezuelan, was going to St. Lucia for a work project and the St. Lucians started requiring visas for Venzuelan passport holders in August.

Maduro can't blame sanctions only. He's a slave to ideology and refused to do common sense macro-economic policy to address the fiscal situation.

The Bolivarian revolution is about to face a mortal blow due to one man.
 

Secure Da Bag

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ADevilYouKhow

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I wonder if the military got to him. I saw either here or on an article, that the military is split between Maduro and the other guy. And you can tell because the other guy and his crew haven't been thrown in jail yet.

Yeah, I think it’s going to be difficult to have a clear view of what’s going on.

There was a small military uprising a day or two before Guaido broke ranks. Also a week prior to that the security services abducted him and released him.

Most of the international community has come out in support of Guaido so I don’t think Maduro will be able to just accident him or lock him up like others in the past.

The international pressure has been growing since Maduro forced himself back into office. Most don’t consider his election legitimate.
 

Perfectson

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Cool.



That's great. That doesn't help your case here. AOC and Sanders have literally advocated for a system like the Nordic countries. That would be social democracy.



Venezuela had socialism for over 30 years and it didn't go to hell. Maduro sent it to hell. So there goes that point.



I told you before to read up before posting again. Didn't I?



Okay. So Venezuela isn't a socialist country because it has capitalist companies as well.




Ah. So now, your schtick to just copy what I say. Cool.

Venezuela government has their hands pretty much their entire economy, it's socialism not pure but on the opposite spectrum of capitalism or social democracy . Any economy or company worth a damn is government controlled .

AOC and Sanders are democratic socialist , they are presenting ideas and paths into socialist economy...Sanders himself says he's a democratic socialist , although he's also said he wouldn't want the government you control all aspects of the economy (yet)

,again get your definitiona straight


Regarding Venezuela having socialism for 30 years and didnt go to hell, can you explain what you mean . Socialism is a big part of Venezuela downfall .oil as well but government was the one controlling this and bartering for imports and setting supply levels.

from the same article YOU posted

Socialism Before Chávez
Analysts like to point to rosier pictures of Pre-Chávez Venezuela, but what these “experts” conveniently ignore is that the seeds of Venezuela’s destruction were sowed during those “glory years.” Years of gradual economic interventionism took what was once a country bound to join the ranks of the First World to a middle-tier developing country. This steady decline eventually created an environment where a demagogue like Chávez would completely exploit for his political gain.

your own article states this yet now you OPINE something totally different. This is why we go pages of arguing because you guys aren't arguing on facts, you're making up shyt and trying to tell me this is how it is. Post FACTS!
 

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Norway Is Far More Socialist Than Venezuela

Matt Bruenig January 27, 2019
122281673_6b66f50a10_o-e1548603121898-678x381.jpg


As the United States begins its effort to depose Venezuelan president Nicholas Maduro, the discourse is plagued by the perennial question: what is socialism? Venezuela helps illuminate this question because many pundits commit to the claim that Venezuela is socialist before committing to a specific definition of socialism. This unfortunate order of events then requires them to retroactively identify specific things that they say make Venezuela socialist, but then those things exist in other countries that they refuse to call socialist.

The weekend provided two prime examples this. To start things off, Bryan Caplan wrote, in reference to those claiming Venezuela is not real socialism, that:



Caplan does not elaborate on how he distinguishes the Nordic countries from Venezuela or even what he considers socialism. But anyone who objectively compares especially Norway to Venezuela would find the two countries are quite similar and that in fact Norway is far more socialist under conventional definitions of that term.

Venezuela and Norway both have abnormally large oil sectors, nationalized oil reserves, and nationalized oil companies.

In Norway, the surplus from the oil boom has been used to build a $1 trillion collectively-owned capital fund with the return on that capital going to finance general government spending, including the country’s large welfare state. This capital fund is even colorfully described by the Norwegian government as “the people’s money, owned by everyone, divided equally and for generations to come.”

In Venezuela, the government appears to have used the surplus primarily to finance current social spending. This means that, on the thing most remarkable about the two countries, Norway comes away as more socialist. Norway uses its oil sector to build an enormous stock of collectively-owned capital, which then goes to fund social spending while Venezuela skips the middle step. Insofar as socialism is about collective ownership of the means of production, an objective observer would have to declare Norway the more socialist of the two.

Norway’s edge on Venezuela goes beyond the different ways the two countries have handled their nationalized oil sectors. Although Venezuelan data is a bit hard to come by, it is hard to imagine based on what information we do have that the Venezuelan government owns one-third of the country’s domestic corporate equity like Norway does. And the Venezuelan government for sure does not own 60 percent of the national wealth like Norway does. Even on indicators that are not strictly socialist but that people often conflate with socialism — such as government taxes, revenue and expenditure — Norway dominates.

Bret Stephens
Although Caplan does not elaborate on what he thinks is especially socialistic about Venezuela, Bret Stephens does. And his take on this front is so bizarre that it seems to suggest the United States is socialist or at least nearly socialist.

That’s more than can be said for some of Chávez’s erstwhile defenders, who would prefer to forget just how closely Venezuela followed the orthodox socialist script. Government spending on social programs? Check: From 2000 to 2013, spending rose to 40 percent of G.D.P., from 28 percent. Raising the minimum wage? Check. Nicolás Maduro, the current president, raised it no fewer than six times last year (though it makes no difference in the face of hyperinflation). An economy based on co-ops, not corporations? Check again. As Naomi Klein wrote in her fawning 2007 book, “The Shock Doctrine,” “Chávez has made the co-ops a top political priority … By 2006, there were roughly 100,000 cooperatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers.”

The first claim here is that Venezuela is socialist because its government spends 40 percent of GDP. By this measure, almost every country in Western and Northern Europe is socialist, including Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, France, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. Even the US government spends 37.7 percent of GDP. On Stephens’ view, the US is apparently just 2.3 points shy of socialism!

The second claim here is that Venezuela is socialist because the government raised the minimum wage six times in the last year in the face of high inflation. This is initially confusing of course because presumably Stephens believes it was a socialist country before last year. But it is also more fundamentally confusing because lots of countries have minimum wages and adjust them over time based on inflation. The US established a minimum wage under FDR and has adjusted it upwards more than a dozen times since. Some US states even have minimum wages that are indexed to inflation, meaning they get adjusted every year.

The last claim is that Venezuela is socialist because it has worker cooperatives, specifically 100,000 cooperatives employing more than 700,000 workers. The first thing to note here is that 700,000 workers in cooperatives is not that impressive up against a country with a population over 30 million people. But more importantly, the US also has worker cooperatives, most prominently ESOPs. In 2015, there were 14 million US workers in ESOP companies and ESOPs are directly encouraged by the US government via tax breaks.

If government spending of around 40 percent of GDP, a minimum wage, and a small coop sector equals socialism, then Americans live in socialism every single day.

What happened in Venezuela?
Unfortunately I am not an expert on Venezuela, unlike every US pundit who suddenly became very knowledgeable about the country this week. So I try to avoid making claims about its development and trajectory. But from what I have read and looking at some reliable figures that do come out of the country, what seems to have happened is that Venezuela (like Norway) had a relatively large oil export sector. When oil prices plunged a few years ago, the value of its oil exports shrank, and thus its overall economy shrank rapidly. The government then printed money to fill the gap, setting off the classic hyperinflationary spiral that, once started, is hard to reverse.

It does not help of course that subsequent US sanctions further constricted the country when it was already struggling. But it seemed to have been in big trouble even before the sanctions came on.

None of this has to do with socialism. As noted already, Norway has a very similarly composed economy, but was able to ride out the oil price drop with less devastation (though it suffered some too). This is because it uses its oil surplus to build a huge capital fund rather than on current spending. When that surplus evaporates due to an oil price drop, Norway does not face any immediate crises and can even draw down the capital fund some (as it did) to fill the temporary gap. Had Venezuela managed its oil sector similarly, we would not even be having this discussion.
 

Secure Da Bag

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oil as well but government was the one controlling this and bartering for imports and setting supply levels.

So oil and mismanagement. I've said that 3 times now.

Regarding Venezuela having socialism for 30 years and didnt go to hell, can you explain what you mean

Exactly that. It didn't go hell. Even under Chavez the economy and society was improving. It wasn't until the oil prices dropped and Maduro took charge that the country went to hell. A recession isn't hell. A decline isn't hell. What's going on now you could argue is hell. What's going on now is far past a recession and decline.
 
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ADevilYouKhow

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Naïve question : why is the whole world so preoccupied about Venezuela? There's bad leadership, poverty and people fleeing in tons of other countries.

Can't only be the oil right?

It’s honestly very destabilizing for the region. Most of their neighbors are just as poor and don’t have infrastructure to support migrants(their institutions can barely support their own populations). Hell one of my Peruvian friends was even complaining on social media about Venezuelans taking jobs and seats in universities.

I think the OAS and US are also concerned about the decline of democracy and if it will spread. Maduro basically destroyed the courts and tore up the constitution. His election also isn’t seen as legitimate.
 

Cynic

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The world is moving to away from capitalism and more towards socialism. The Quantum-Automation Revolution is gonna force us there whether you like it or not.

It's not yet. We are a few decades away from that scenario
 

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The Deep State


With Spies and Other Operatives, a Nation Looms Over Venezuela’s Crisis: Cuba

With Spies and Other Operatives, a Nation Looms Over Venezuela’s Crisis: Cuba
Jan. 26, 2019
Cuba is a longtime ally of Venezuela and its biggest supporter in the region, and the government of former President Raúl Castro has issued vociferous declarations of support for President Nicolás Maduro.Sven Creutzmann/Mambo photo, via Getty Images

merlin_149791113_89d4f042-ce8b-4a3a-8c8d-208cdc544806-articleLarge.jpg

Cuba is a longtime ally of Venezuela and its biggest supporter in the region, and the government of former President Raúl Castro has issued vociferous declarations of support for President Nicolás Maduro.Sven Creutzmann/Mambo photo, via Getty Images
MEXICO CITY — When the opposition leader Juan Guaidó was briefly detained by Venezuelan intelligence agents last week, some saw the hand of another government at work.

“This agency is controlled & directed by experienced oppressors sent by #Cuba & these kinds of tactics are textbook methods used by the Cuban regime,” Senator Marco Rubio of Florida said on Twitter.

Cuba seems to loom over the political crisis roiling Venezuela as President Nicolás Maduro faces a robust challenge from Mr. Guiadó, who declared himself interim leader this past week.

Cuba is a longtime ally of Venezuela and its biggest supporter in the region. The government of President Miguel Díaz-Canel has offered Mr. Maduro its “unwavering solidarity” and called Venezuela’s political turmoil “the attempt to impose a coup d’état, a puppet government at the service of the United States.”

In the view of many of Mr. Maduro’s opponents, however, Cuba is to blame in large part for the Venezuelan president’s endurance in office. They point to the presence of Cuban operatives in the country — spies, intelligence and political advisers, counterintelligence agents, military trainers — and contend that they have propped up Mr. Maduro by helping to suppress dissent within the armed forces and throughout society.

María Corina Machado, a Venezuelan opposition leader, said in an interview that the presence of Cubans in the Venezuelan armed forces was “unacceptable.” The Cuban government, she insisted, “must understand that they have to let go of Venezuela.”

The two nations started drawing close with the election of Mr. Maduro’s predecessor, Hugo Chávez, in 1998. The relationship was driven by a deep friendship between Mr. Chávez and his Cuban counterpart at the time, Fidel Castro.

The opposition leader Juan Guaidó on Friday, at his first public appearance since he declared himself interim president.Meridith Kohut for The New York Times

merlin_149756685_d9e9bd6a-b7aa-4a71-9dae-3dfa9662bbd7-articleLarge.jpg

The opposition leader Juan Guaidó on Friday, at his first public appearance since he declared himself interim president.Meridith Kohut for The New York Times
“They were very close, like a father-and-son relationship,” said Richard Feinberg, professor at the University of California, San Diego, and a specialist on the Cuban economy.

The two leaders developed a close economic and political alliance. In addition to sending security and military specialists to Venezuela, Cuba sent experts from other professions — including doctors, nurses, teachers and athletic coaches — to beef up the South American nation’s professional ranks.

Still, some analysts say that while Cuba’s support for the current Venezuelan government is important, it ultimately will not be decisive.

“This claim that Cuba is controlling Venezuela has been around, really, since Chávez started,” said David Smilde, a sociology professor and expert on Venezuela at Tulane University. “It’s been long overblown.”

The Cubans, he added, “are key consultants and advisers, but I don’t think they’re calling the shots or telling them what to do.”

While former military officials who have fled Venezuela have reported the involvement of Cubans within the security and intelligence forces, experts say the extent of that involvement remains shrouded in mystery.

In testimony to the United States Senate in 2017, Luis Almagro, the secretary general of the Organization of American States and an outspoken critic of Mr. Maduro, asserted that there were about 15,000 Cubans in Venezuela and likened it to “an occupation army.”

A mural depicting Hugo Chávez and Fidel Castro in Caracas. “They were very close, like a father-and-son relationship,” one analyst said.Meridith Kohut for The New York Times

merlin_125413685_c2a568b2-2f48-4699-8ef1-03a0acaa4e41-articleLarge.jpg

A mural depicting Hugo Chávez and Fidel Castro in Caracas. “They were very close, like a father-and-son relationship,” one analyst said.Meridith Kohut for The New York Times
“There’s been a lot of speculation about this, and rumors about numbers and about how close they are to Maduro,” said Ted Piccone, a senior fellow in foreign policy at the Brookings Institution. “But I haven’t seen any hard, solid reporting on it.”

Whatever the extent of Cuba’s support, Venezuela for years supplied heavily subsidized crude oil to the island nation, at a rate of about 100,000 barrels per day, experts said. Cuba would refine the surplus and resell it on the international market.

According to a policy brief published by the Brookings Institution, by 2012 the trade in goods and services amounted to 20.8 percent of Cuba’s gross domestic product.

During the Venezuelan economic crisis of the past several years, however, crude exports to Cuba have dropped as Venezuelan oil production has collapsed. In 2017, the financial health of Venezuela’s state-run oil company, Pdvsa, had declined so much that Cuba took the company’s 49 percent share in a Cuban refinery as payment for outstanding debts.

In addition, the ranks of Cuban professionals working in the South American country have thinned in recent years, analysts say, and the relationship between Mr. Maduro and the current Cuban leadership is not nearly as warm as the friendship between their predecessors.

“They are certainly ideological brothers-in-arms — against the United States and all that,” Mr. Piccone said. “But it doesn’t have the same friendliness as it used to. And the Cubans aren’t getting as much out of it as they used to.”

Yet the alliance has been resilient.

Mr. Maduro said in a televised broadcast this month that Venezuela would take in 2,000 Cuban doctors who left Brazil after a dispute between the Brazilian and Cuban governments. Medical clinics run by Cuban doctors once proliferated throughout Venezuela, but many have fallen into decay amid the economic crisis.

Top Venezuelan military leaders announcing support for Mr. Maduro this past week. Cuban operatives have been seen as suppressing dissent in the rank and file.Luis Robayo/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

merlin_149692983_4d057934-11c1-4596-a478-fbdbdce137f4-articleLarge.jpg

Top Venezuelan military leaders announcing support for Mr. Maduro this past week. Cuban operatives have been seen as suppressing dissent in the rank and file.Luis Robayo/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Political advisers still have the ear of key officials in the Maduro administration, though Mr. Smilde said: “Cubans often complain that Maduro doesn’t listen to them.”

But perhaps most crucially to Mr. Maduro, Cubans remain a key component in the intelligence and military sectors, providing assistance with domestic surveillance, electronic wiretapping, and internal military surveillance — to help squelch dissent and shore up loyalty, analysts said.

“A coup plot is a big worry,” said Harold Trinkunas, deputy director at the Center for International Security and Cooperation at Stanford University and an expert on Venezuela.

In the absence of a clear information about the extent of Cuban involvement in Venezuela, rumors have spiraled, and outside assessments have often been molded for political convenience.

Speaking at a United Nations Security Council meeting on Saturday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo pointed to Cuba’s involvement in Venezuela, saying its intelligence officers have brought their “own worst practices” to Caracas.

“No regime has done more to sustain the nightmarish conditions in Venezuela than the regime in Havana,” Mr. Pompeo said.

There is plenty of motivation for Cuba to remain as involved as possible to shore up the Maduro administration. Havana risks losing an important economic benefactor, not to mention a leftist ally in a region that has lately seen a rightward shift.

Should Mr. Guaidó and the opposition gain control in Caracas, “that would, of course, be very bad news for Havana,” Mr. Piccone said. “They will very quickly change the relationship with Cuba.”

Megan Specia contributed reporting from New York.

A version of this article appears in print on Jan. 27, 2019, on Page A8 of the New York edition with the headline: For Venezuela, a Staunch Ally. For Cuba, Lots of Subsidized Oil.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe


Subscribe to The New York Times.
 

Perfectson

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So oil and mismanagement. I've said that 3 times now.



Exactly that. It didn't go hell. Even under Chavez the economy and society was improving. It wasn't until the oil prices dropped and Maduro took charge that the country went to hell. A recession isn't hell. A decline isn't hell. What's going on now you could argue is hell. What's going on now is far past a recession and decline.


That's false, your article even mentioned it. If anything oil masked the problems under Hugo , but it was beginning to corrode.

You say oil, to me its specifically mismanagement...Saudi has been impacted by oil prices and hasn't gone the route Venezuela has. It's because purely the mismangement and the bartering and borrowing against the oil reserves for imports and goods. I've explained this several times. The subsisies they were given for basic items could no longer be sustained.


Norway Is Far More Socialist Than Venezuela
Matt Bruenig January 27, 2019
122281673_6b66f50a10_o-e1548603121898-678x381.jpg


As the United States begins its effort to depose Venezuelan president Nicholas Maduro, the discourse is plagued by the perennial question: what is socialism? Venezuela helps illuminate this question because many pundits commit to the claim that Venezuela is socialist before committing to a specific definition of socialism. This unfortunate order of events then requires them to retroactively identify specific things that they say make Venezuela socialist, but then those things exist in other countries that they refuse to call socialist.

The weekend provided two prime examples this. To start things off, Bryan Caplan wrote, in reference to those claiming Venezuela is not real socialism, that:



Caplan does not elaborate on how he distinguishes the Nordic countries from Venezuela or even what he considers socialism. But anyone who objectively compares especially Norway to Venezuela would find the two countries are quite similar and that in fact Norway is far more socialist under conventional definitions of that term.

Venezuela and Norway both have abnormally large oil sectors, nationalized oil reserves, and nationalized oil companies.

In Norway, the surplus from the oil boom has been used to build a $1 trillion collectively-owned capital fund with the return on that capital going to finance general government spending, including the country’s large welfare state. This capital fund is even colorfully described by the Norwegian government as “the people’s money, owned by everyone, divided equally and for generations to come.”

In Venezuela, the government appears to have used the surplus primarily to finance current social spending. This means that, on the thing most remarkable about the two countries, Norway comes away as more socialist. Norway uses its oil sector to build an enormous stock of collectively-owned capital, which then goes to fund social spending while Venezuela skips the middle step. Insofar as socialism is about collective ownership of the means of production, an objective observer would have to declare Norway the more socialist of the two.

Norway’s edge on Venezuela goes beyond the different ways the two countries have handled their nationalized oil sectors. Although Venezuelan data is a bit hard to come by, it is hard to imagine based on what information we do have that the Venezuelan government owns one-third of the country’s domestic corporate equity like Norway does. And the Venezuelan government for sure does not own 60 percent of the national wealth like Norway does. Even on indicators that are not strictly socialist but that people often conflate with socialism — such as government taxes, revenue and expenditure — Norway dominates.

Bret Stephens
Although Caplan does not elaborate on what he thinks is especially socialistic about Venezuela, Bret Stephens does. And his take on this front is so bizarre that it seems to suggest the United States is socialist or at least nearly socialist.

That’s more than can be said for some of Chávez’s erstwhile defenders, who would prefer to forget just how closely Venezuela followed the orthodox socialist script. Government spending on social programs? Check: From 2000 to 2013, spending rose to 40 percent of G.D.P., from 28 percent. Raising the minimum wage? Check. Nicolás Maduro, the current president, raised it no fewer than six times last year (though it makes no difference in the face of hyperinflation). An economy based on co-ops, not corporations? Check again. As Naomi Klein wrote in her fawning 2007 book, “The Shock Doctrine,” “Chávez has made the co-ops a top political priority … By 2006, there were roughly 100,000 cooperatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers.”

The first claim here is that Venezuela is socialist because its government spends 40 percent of GDP. By this measure, almost every country in Western and Northern Europe is socialist, including Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, France, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. Even the US government spends 37.7 percent of GDP. On Stephens’ view, the US is apparently just 2.3 points shy of socialism!

The second claim here is that Venezuela is socialist because the government raised the minimum wage six times in the last year in the face of high inflation. This is initially confusing of course because presumably Stephens believes it was a socialist country before last year. But it is also more fundamentally confusing because lots of countries have minimum wages and adjust them over time based on inflation. The US established a minimum wage under FDR and has adjusted it upwards more than a dozen times since. Some US states even have minimum wages that are indexed to inflation, meaning they get adjusted every year.

The last claim is that Venezuela is socialist because it has worker cooperatives, specifically 100,000 cooperatives employing more than 700,000 workers. The first thing to note here is that 700,000 workers in cooperatives is not that impressive up against a country with a population over 30 million people. But more importantly, the US also has worker cooperatives, most prominently ESOPs. In 2015, there were 14 million US workers in ESOP companies and ESOPs are directly encouraged by the US government via tax breaks.

If government spending of around 40 percent of GDP, a minimum wage, and a small coop sector equals socialism, then Americans live in socialism every single day.

What happened in Venezuela?
Unfortunately I am not an expert on Venezuela, unlike every US pundit who suddenly became very knowledgeable about the country this week. So I try to avoid making claims about its development and trajectory. But from what I have read and looking at some reliable figures that do come out of the country, what seems to have happened is that Venezuela (like Norway) had a relatively large oil export sector. When oil prices plunged a few years ago, the value of its oil exports shrank, and thus its overall economy shrank rapidly. The government then printed money to fill the gap, setting off the classic hyperinflationary spiral that, once started, is hard to reverse.

It does not help of course that subsequent US sanctions further constricted the country when it was already struggling. But it seemed to have been in big trouble even before the sanctions came on.

None of this has to do with socialism. As noted already, Norway has a very similarly composed economy, but was able to ride out the oil price drop with less devastation (though it suffered some too). This is because it uses its oil surplus to build a huge capital fund rather than on current spending. When that surplus evaporates due to an oil price drop, Norway does not face any immediate crises and can even draw down the capital fund some (as it did) to fill the temporary gap. Had Venezuela managed its oil sector similarly, we would not even be having this discussion.



good article - at the end of the day , no one country is pure capitalistic or pure socialist. We are talking leves of taxation and government control.

there are alot of differences between Norway and VZ, despite the government control (which is somewhat due to the investment fund that norway controls), Norway also has a flat(er) tax and not a progressive tax that attacks just the rich. Also no minimum wage in Norway.

Norway allows the mix of co-ops and corprationsto fun free within the market. The government does not control the market, nor tries to. Like wise they have fairly unregulated compared to other countries.

I think the last point is crucial, whereas Venezuela state controls it's chief commodity, Norway owns it through state "owned" corporations that compete with private owned corporations. It's akin to the postal service competing with DHL/UPS/Fedex except the postal service isn't on the stock market with a CEO trying to drive value for shareholders.

Yes, norway will rank higher on this "socialist" scale compared to VZ for the reasons above (state owned fund and state own corporations ) but they also allow for capitalistic market forces that aren't government controlled to drive the economy, instead of trying to control the economy through the government. That to me is the difference the article does not catch or even touches upon...


Tale of two oil-rich countries: Venezuela vs. Norway
 
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