Warning: Okc vs Spurs Don't Watch

[USSInsiders]

Couldn't agree more - would you say it's patently ridiculous for someone to claim that K-Mart is a better player and can provide more on court than him? Would you also say it's ridiculous for someone to say Johnson is expected to be the main factor in helping this Heat team win a title - e.g. is it ridiculous that someone would use how many games (and who) the Heat lose, against Johnson as if he's not doing his job?

To the K-mart thing: yeah, not even close. K-mart was never anywhere near effective as Joe. Martin is just a chucker that provides very little else on the court, and he can't really create his own shot like Joe can. As far as skilled scorers, Joe Johnson has always been at the top of the league, not in the "A-tier" of great scorers like Wade, Kobe, but he has a complete offensive game. He can shoot off the dribble, spot-up, post-up, finish at the rim, etc. Just a complete offensive player.

Martin is more of a spot-up, catch-and-shoot type of guy, and at this stage in his career he can barely do that with much effectiveness.

To latter part of your post: That's debatable, really. They need him to push them over the edge. At the same time, no Bosh makes things extremely difficult but pinning your hopes on a past-his-prime, scoring guard who doesn't really offer much else but offense is a bit much. Regardless, he does play a very important role, but he has the luxury of not having to take too much blame if the team falls short, which it definitely will.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

To the K-mart thing: yeah, not even close. K-mart was never anywhere near effective as Joe. Martin is just a chucker that provides very little else on the court, and he can't really create his own shot like Joe can. As far as skilled scorers, Joe Johnson has always been at the top of the league, not in the "A-tier" of great scorers like Wade, Kobe, but he has a complete offensive game. He can shoot off the dribble, spot-up, post-up, finish at the rim, etc. Just a complete offensive player.

Martin is more of a spot-up, catch-and-shoot type of guy, and at this stage in his career he can barely do that with much effectiveness.

To latter part of your post: That's debatable, really. They need him to push them over the edge. At the same time, no Bosh makes things extremely difficult but pinning your hopes on a past-his-prime, scoring guard who doesn't really offer much else but offense is a bit much. Regardless, he does play a very important role, but he has the luxury of not having to take too much blame if the team falls short, which it definitely will.

While that's true, he isn't expected to be the difference in them winning/losing, correct?

You wouldn't start using all of the games the Heat lost (without any reason as to why they lost), and simply use it AGAINST Johnson from not being the difference in them winning, as if he's suppose to be carrying the team?

 

[O.G.B]

I didn't need ammunition - you killed yourself for attempting to argue that K-Mart was better in the first place.

Wrong, Kevin Martin has always been better than No Show Joe, check the career numbers loser.

Kevin Martin has played less career minutes 30.3 vs Johnson at 36.1
Kevin Martin has more career points 17.5 vs Johnson at 16.9
Kevin Martin is a better 3pt shooter .385 vs Johnson at .372
Kevin Martin is better free throw shooter .870 vs Johnson at .801
Kevin Martin has the same amount of steals in career as Johnson .09
Kevin Martin has less career turnovers 1.7 vs Johnson at 2.0
Kevin Martin has a better FGM-A at 5.4 -12.4 vs Johnson's at 6.5 -14.7


All while Kevin Martin has played 707 career games & started 504 games (203 games as a backup) vs Johnson's total of 1113 games in his career starting 1063 of these games (70 games as a backup)

But, but, but........did you watch the game


Now let's see what creative ways you'll come up with excuses based on the actual, factual numbers.

 

[USSInsiders]

While that's true, he isn't expected to be the difference in them winning/losing, correct?

You wouldn't start using all of the games the Heat lost (without any reason as to why they lost), and simply use it AGAINST Johnson from not being the difference in them winning, as if he's suppose to be carrying the team?

That's completely arbitrary. Some people may think so, others may not. I personally don't think he is, but I never had very high expectations in this team to begin with.

However, a lot of people think his acquisition implies the Heat are legitimately gunning for a title, which they are. So with that said, the burden he has to bear is much higher.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Wrong, Kevin Martin has always been better than No Show Joe, check the career numbers loser.

Kevin Martin has played less career minutes 30.3 vs Johnson at 36.1
Kevin Martin has more career points 17.5 vs Johnson at 16.9
Kevin Martin is a better 3pt shooter .385 vs Johnson at .372
Kevin Martin is better free throw shooter .870 vs Johnson at .801
Kevin Martin has the same amount of steals in career as Johnson .09
Kevin Martin has less career turnovers 1.7 vs Johnson at 2.0
Kevin Martin has a better FGM-A at 5.4 -12.4 vs Johnson's at 6.5 -14.7


All while Kevin Martin has played 707 career games & started 504 games (203 games as a backup) vs Johnson's total of 1113 games in his career starting 1063 of these games (70 games as a backup)

But, but, but........did you watch the game


Now let's see what creative ways you'll come up with excuses based on the actual, factual numbers.

Just stop posting. You continue to make yourself look more stupid with each post.

 

[O.G.B]

I'd add Deng to that list too. JJ is pretty much the 4th/5th option.

The point I'm trying to make here is that he's no longer a main option player - he was signed to spread the floor, provide some scoring and help run the offense when needed to. He was never signed on the notion that he was going to significantly improve your title chances - like this dude @O.G.B is insinuating everyone is doing.

I'm not making an insinuation about anyone, except you, so trying to get others to chime to agree with your premise isn't going to help you with any of your failed arguments. Plus people can also pull up your quotes with you stating that Johnson would make a significant difference for the Heat so don't try to backtrack now.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

That's completely arbitrary. Some people may think so, others may not. I personally don't think he is, but I never had very high expectations in this team to begin with.

However, a lot of people think his acquisition implies the Heat are legitimately gunning for a title, which they are. So with that said, the burden he has to bear is much higher.

I don't think it's arbitrary in the fact that he was signed as a complementary/role-playing piece. I mean he isn't expected to lead this team is he? That's more squarely on the shoulders of Dragic and Wade, is it not?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm not making an insinuation about anyone, except you, so trying to get others to chime to agree with your premise isn't going to help you with any of your failed arguments. Plus people can also pull up your quotes with you stating that Johnson would make a significant difference for the Heat so don't try to backtrack now.

Show me where I stated this, with the right context. I actually said the opposite to this, I said I was unsure of how much of a difference he would make.

I dare you to make a thread asking who is the better player between K-Mart and Johnson at this stage of their respective careers.

 

[O.G.B]

Just stop posting. You continue to make yourself look more stupid with each post.

Wrong, Kevin Martin has always been better than No Show Joe, check the career numbers loser.

Kevin Martin has played less career minutes 30.3 vs Johnson at 36.1
Kevin Martin has more career points 17.5 vs Johnson at 16.9
Kevin Martin is a better 3pt shooter .385 vs Johnson at .372
Kevin Martin is better free throw shooter .870 vs Johnson at .801
Kevin Martin has the same amount of steals in career as Johnson .09
Kevin Martin has less career turnovers 1.7 vs Johnson at 2.0
Kevin Martin has a better FGM-A at 5.4 -12.4 vs Johnson's at 6.5 -14.7


All while Kevin Martin has played 707 career games & started 504 games (203 games as a backup) vs Johnson's total of 1113 games in his career starting 1063 of these games (70 games as a backup)

But, but, but........did you watch the game


Now let's see what creative ways you'll come up with excuses based on the actual, factual numbers.

Exactly! You have no real rebuttals when facts are presented that you can't counter.

 

[O.G.B]

Show me where I stated this, with the right context. I actually said the opposite to this, I said I was unsure of how much of a difference he would make.

I dare you to make a thread asking who is the better player between K-Mart and Johnson at this stage of their respective careers.

You're like a broken record breh

 

[USSInsiders]

I don't think it's arbitrary in the fact that he was signed as a complementary/role-playing piece. I mean he isn't expected to lead this team is he? That's more squarely on the shoulders of Dragic and Wade, is it not?

You said, "he isn't expected."

Expectations by their very nature can be completely arbitrary. He's an older player on the team, he's a vet in the lockerroom. Yes, Wade and Dragic are your big name guys, but still, it's not like Johnson should be totally absolved from blame if he's playing major minutes, bricks tons of wide open looks or something. He's still a very serviceable player.

Again, this is totally hypothetical and in my opinion, retarded. I'd have to see a game play out before I lay the blame on someone. No matter who you are and how you play, if you suck cock and basically squander posessions for a team, Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade, blame gets placed on whomever it deserves to be placed upon which again, can be subjective.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Exactly! You have no real rebuttals when facts are presented that you can't counter.

The problem with those "facts" is that they're based on the career output, not what impact they have on the game today (which the argument is based around, not what they've done over their careers). Second of all, why did you purposefully leave out assists? Third of all, why are you listing turnovers and steals without the proper context? Why are you listing any numbers without the proper context?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You said, "he isn't expected."

Expectations by their very nature can be completely arbitrary. He's an older player on the team, he's a vet in the lockerroom. Yes, Wade and Dragic are your big name guys, but still, it's not like Johnson should be totally absolved from blame if he's playing major minutes, bricks tons of wide open looks or something. He's still a very serviceable player..

I'm not saying that he shouldn't - everyone should be held accountable for how they play. What I'm saying is nobody should expect Johnson to be carrying a team at this stage of his career; the hopes of winning/losing and contending for a title shouldn't be on what Johnson does.

Again, this is totally hypothetical and in my opinion, retarded. I'd have to see a game play out before I lay the blame on someone. No matter who you are and how you play, if you suck cock and basically squander posessions for a team, Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade, blame gets placed on whomever it deserves to be placed upon which again, can be subjective.

That's the point I'm trying to make here.

This idiot @O.G.B is blaming Johnson when the Heat lose, no matter what - even if he's not to blame. He thinks when they lose (particularity against teams above .500) it's Johnson not doing his job, and the stats he puts up in wins against teams below .500 are meaningless as they're not against 'playoff' teams - without any context at all.

 

[USSInsiders]

I'm not saying that he shouldn't - everyone should be held accountable for how they play. What I'm saying is nobody should expect Johnson to be carrying a team at this stage of his career; the hopes of winning/losing and contending for a title shouldn't be on what Johnson does.

That's the point I'm trying to make here.

This idiot @O.G.B is blaming Johnson when the Heat lose, no matter what - even if he's not to blame. He thinks when they lose (particularity against teams above .500) it's Johnson not doing his job, and the stats he puts up in wins against teams below .500 are meaningless as they're not against 'playoff' teams - without any context at all.

Alright, well that's his prerogative breh

 

[O.G.B]

I don't think it's arbitrary in the fact that he was signed as a complementary/role-playing piece. I mean he isn't expected to lead this team is he? That's more squarely on the shoulders of Dragic and Wade, is it not?

Of course Johnson isn't expected to lead the Heat, which is stupid to even mention because Johnson could never lead the previous teams when he was considered to be the main guy. However Dragic isn't a superstar cailber PG & is infective in some lineups against other teams & D Wade while still a very good player, isn't the Wade of old due to injuries. Joe Johnson was brought in by the Heat to be a main cog within the unit & not as a minor role player based primarily for his shooting & 3 point ability, to play long minutes while giving D Wade rest & as some additional insurance to be the main SG if D Wade was injured & couldn't play games during the playoffs & also to play minutes as a well versed. more steady backup SF for Deng & no Chris Bosh or if Deng was injured as well.