What did 2nd Temple Judaism Believe……REALLY?

[Koichos]

Ok so I’ll put it like this, is the “ancient of days” or son of man the “messiah” Jewish currently are waiting for to come back and rule?

Not quite. The Aramaic phrases עתיק יומין (Daniyyel 7:9) and עתיק יומיא (Daniyyel 7:13) refer only to Gοd and mean 'the One from the ancient years', that is to say, 'the same Gοd who existed in ancient times'. Conversely, כבר אנש (Daniyyel 7:13), which means 'something like a human being' but literally 'one like the son of a mortal' (not a 'gοd', or even a 'gοd’s son', but a completely mortal being), refers to the King-Mashiyaħ. And Daniyyel was only dreaming, as the text reads:

חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא, וארו! עם ענני שמיא כבר אנש אתה הוא; ועד עתיק יומיא מטה, וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃​

I was dreaming [lit., 'I was seeing nocturnal visions'], and wow! [something] like a human being was coming with the clouds of the sky; he approached the One from the ancient years [lit., 'days'] and was brought before Him. (Daniyyel 7:13; see also 7:7)

Isn’t it only ONE individual who will be a messiah strictly from the Davidic line?

'Messiah' is just the title of our ancient kings. All our messiahs (with the single exception of King Sha'ul) have been from the Royal Line of Y'hudah. When the future, promised king rises to power, the ancient coronation ceremony will be reinstated so that he will be a 'messiah' in the most literal sense of the word, and for this reason he came to be known, throughout ancient Jewish culture and literature, as המלך המשיח hamellech hamashiyaħ or simply המשיח hamashiyaħ.

But the promised individual whom we call in Hebrew המשיח hamashiyaħ ('the Mashiyaħ') or המלך המשיח hamellech hamashiyaħ ('the King-Mashiyaħ') is never actually referred to as such in the Tana"ch: he is called by several different titles (מלך mellech 'king', נגיד naggid 'ruler', נשיא nassi 'prince'), but never 'a' messiah (משיח mashiyaħ), much less 'the' messiah (המשיח hamashiyaħ) - the latter of which does not occur in the twenty-four books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Here’s a good video breaking it down using scriptures from a Jewish perspective

That's not a Jewish perspective.

All I know is, the more I started learning about Islam, it took my understanding of Christianity and religion to another level.

And if I ever learn HEBREW, watch out

You should! I myself have been learning with a cousin of mine the Judaeo-Arabic translation of Torah alongside each week's Hebrew portion (parashah).

 

[DoubleClutch]

Around 13:45

and 36:25

 

[DoubleClutch]

Is this true @Koichos

 

[Koichos]

No, @DoubleClutch:

1. The verb ‘to be’ is not even attested to in the 1st person present tense because Hebrew has no word for ‘am’.
2. Grammatically, אֶהְיֶה eh'yeh is the 1st person singular, future tense of verb-root היה (hayah, ‘to be’) and means ‘I will be’.
3. As the ‘Explicit Name’ is voweless - and even if it were part of the verb ‘to be’ - who’s to say it ought to be read in pi`el and not, say, pu`al?

The past and future tenses of root היה are conjugated

• הָיִיתִי hayĭti (‘I was’), הָיִיתָ/הָיִית hayĭta/hayit (‘you [m./f.] were’), הָיָה/הָיְתָה hayah/haytah (‘he/she was’) and​
• אֶהְיֶה eh'yeh (‘I shall be’), תִּהְיֶה/תִּהְיִי tih'yeh/tih'yiy (‘you [m./f.] will be’), יִהְיֶה/תִּהְיֶה yih'yeh/tih'yeh (‘he/she will be’). The imperative ‘be!’ is​
• הֱיֵה heyeh (m. sg.), הֲיִי hayiy (f. sg.), הֱיוּ heyu (pl.); however, it can also be written with a ו vav in place of the י yοd, as in​
• הֱוֵה heveh or הֱוֵא heve (m. sg.), הֱוִי heviy (f. sg.), הֱווּ hevu (pl.). The essentially unused, masculine present participle is​
• הֹוֶה/הֹוָה hοveh/hοvah (‘being’), while the alternative feminine form written with a י yοd in place of the ו vav is​
• הוֹיָה hοyah (‘being’) which is found in Sh'mοt 9:3 and quoted in the Haggadah-service on Pesah Eve!​

The closest to ‘is’ would be the participle הֹוֶה hοveh (see line 5 above), but this word does not occur at all in the Torah. It can, however, be found alongside הָיָה hayah (‘he was’, line 1) and יִהְיֶה yih'yeh (‘he will be’, line 2) in No. 2 of the Ramba"m’s ‘Thirteen Principles’ into which he condensed the essence of Judaism:

אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה, שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא יָחִיד, וְאֵין יְחִידוּת כָּמֽוֹהוּ בְּשׁוּם פָּנִים, וְהוּא לְבַדּוֹ אֱלֹקֵֽינוּ - הָיָה, הֹוֶה, וְיִהְיֶה׃​

I firmly believe that the Creator - may His Name be blessed - is a ‘Oneness’ and that there is no other ‘Oneness’ of any kind like Him, and that He alone is our God who was, is, and will be.

These words are also used to form a line of the prayer-poem Adοn `Οlam (‘Master of the World’), one of the most familiar passages in our formal prayer-liturgy:

וְהוּא הָיָה וְהוּא הוֶֹה וְהוּא יִהְיֶה בְּתִפְאָרָה׃​

He was, He is, and He will be in splendor forevermore!

 

[Koichos]

The אֶֶֶהְְיֶֶֶה eh'yeh that occurs three times in verse 14 (it is also found 40 other places in the Torah and Nach) is an affirmation of that which first occurs in verse 12

יא וַיֹּ֤אֿמֶר מֹשֶׁה֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹקִ֔ים מִ֣י אָנֹ֔כִֿי כִּ֥י אֵלֵ֖ךְֿ אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֑הֿ וְכִֿ֥י אוֹצִ֛יא אֶתֿ־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מִמִּצְרָֽיִם׃ יב וַיֹּ֙אֿמֶר֙ כִּי־אֶֽהְיֶ֣הֿ עִמָּ֔ךְֿ וְזֶהֿ־לְּךָֿ֣ הָא֔וֹתֿ כִּ֥י אָֽנֹכִֿ֖י שְׁלַחְתִּ֑יךָֿ בְּהוֹצִֽיאֲךָֿ֤ אֶתֿ־הָעָם֙ מִמִּצְרַ֔יִם תַּֽעַבְֿדֿוּן֙ אֶתֿ־הָ֣אֱלֹקִ֔ים עַ֖ל הָהָ֥ר הַזֶּֽהֿ׃ יג וַיֹּ֨אֿמֶר מֹשֶׁ֜הֿ אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹקִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨הֿ אָֽנֹכִֿ֣י בָֿא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹקֵ֥י אֲבֽֿוֹתֵֿיכֶֿ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶֿ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַהֿ־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥הֿ אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם׃ יד וַיֹּ֤אֿמֶר אֱלֹקִים֙ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֔הֿ אֶֽהְיֶ֖הֿ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑הֿ וַיֹּ֗אֿמֶר כֹּ֤הֿ תֹֿאֿמַר֙ לִבְֿנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖הֿ שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽֿם׃ טו וַיֹּאֿמֶר֩ ע֨וֹדֿ אֱלֹקִ֜ים אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֗הֿ כֹּ֣הֿ־תֹֿאֿמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְיָ֞ אֱלֹקֵ֣י אֲבֹֽֿתֵֿיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹקֵ֨י אַבְֿרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹקֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאֿלֹקֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖בֿ שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶֿ֑ם זֶהֿ־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥הֿ זִכְֿרִ֖י לְדֹֿ֥ר דֹּֽר׃​

11But Mοsheh said to the Elοhim: ‘Me... approach Par`oh and release the Yisr´elim from Egypt?’ 12He answered: ‘Surely I will be with you; this is your indication that it was I who sent you. Once you have taken the people out of Egypt you are to worship the Elοhim at this mountain.’ 13Mοsheh said to the Elοhim: ‘See, when I come to Yisra´el’s descendants and I tell them, “Your ancestors’ Elοhim has sent me to you”—if they ask me “What is His Name”, how should I answer them?’ 14So Elοhim said to Mοsheh: ‘[Tell them it is I, the Οne who says] I will be [with them when they need Me now] just as I shall be [with them whenever they have need of Me in the future]’; and then He said: ‘Tell the Yisr´elim, “[the Οne who says] I will be [with them when they need Me now] has sent me to you”.’ 15Elοhim said further to Mοsheh: ‘You are to tell Yisra´el’s descendants this: “YΟD, HE, VAV, HE, your ancestors’ Elοhim—Avraham’s Elοhim, Yitzhaḳ’s Elοhim, and Ya`aḳοv’s Elοhim—has sent me to you”; this is My fame forever [as the Οne whom Avraham, Yitzhaḳ, and Ya`aḳοv worshiped] and this is My recognition [how I shall be remembered] in every generation.’ (Sh'mοt 3:11-15)

 

[DoubleClutch]

Side topic but @Koichos can you tell me who Judah ha-Nasi is?

Why is he important and what does he represent in Judaism back during his time and today?

 

[Koichos]

Side topic but @Koichos can you tell me who Judah ha-Nasi is?

Why is he important and what does he represent in Judaism back during his time and today?

Y'hudah I ‘Hanassi’ (‘the Prince’) is credited with having codified the Oral Torah - the kernel of the two Talmudim. He was the 4th great-grandson of Hillel I ‘Hazzaḳen’ (‘the Elder’) and the 7th generation of the dynasty founded by this Hillel, which dominated the Sanhedrin through 15 generations from father to son, between ~50 BCE and 415 CE.

You might find it interesting to know that his 2nd great-grandfather, Gamliy´el I ‘Hazzaḳen’ (‘the Elder’), is the Gamliy´el referred to twice in Acts (at chapter 5 verse 34, where he is called ‘a teacher of the law’, and once again at chapter 22 verse 3, where the Apostate Sha´ul of Tarshish claims to have studied under the great Jewish Sage).

 

[DoubleClutch]

Y'hudah I ‘Hanassi’ (‘the Prince’) is credited with having codified the Oral Torah - the kernel of the two Talmudim. He was the 4th great-grandson of Hillel I ‘Hazzaḳen’ (‘the Elder’) and the 7th generation of the dynasty founded by this Hillel, which dominated the Sanhedrin through 15 generations from father to son, between ~50 BCE and 415 CE.

You might find it interesting to know that his 2nd great-grandfather, Gamliy´el I ‘Hazzaḳen’ (‘the Elder’), is the Gamliy´el referred to twice in Acts (at chapter 5 verse 34, where he is called ‘a teacher of the law’, and once again at chapter 22 verse 3, where the Apostate Sha´ul of Tarshish claims to have studied under the great Jewish Sage).

Why is he called “the prince”? Was he a messiah figure?

Who is of that “dynasty” today. Do you even know or does it even matter?

What makes on student of the Torah greater than the next. Everyone has the same scriptures they read.

What makes someone a respected “teacher of the law” over the next man?

Why wasn’t Jesus part of this Sanhedrin? He was considered a “teacher of the law” at the time according to the Bible ?

 

[Koichos]

Why is he called “the prince”?

The Great Sanhedrin was governed by two officials: the נָשִׂיא nasi (‘Prince’ of the Nation, or more strictly ‘President’ of the Sanhedrin) and the אַב בֵּית דִּין av beit din (‘Head of the Court’). This dual leadership, known as זוּגוֹת zugοt (‘Pairs’), ended with Hillel and Shamma´i, and was followed by the era of the Tanna´im (the Mishnah Authorities).

Y'hudah Hannasi was a 5th generation Tanna and ‘Nasi’ of the Sanhedrin, hence the title. His grandfather, Rabban Gamaliy´el II, moved the Sanhedrin to Yavneh, near Gaza, after the Temple was destroyed.

Was he a messiah figure?

No.

Who is of that “dynasty” today.

The dynasty founded by Hillel I Hazzaḳen (‘Hillel the Elder’) flourished fifteen generations, from father to son, and ended with his 12th great-grandson, Gamliy´el VI.

1. Hillel I Hazzaḳen (‘the Elder’)—floruit c. 50 BCE - 10 BCE—founder of the dynasty and famous contemporary of Shamma´i
2. Shim`οn I Hazzaḳen (‘the Elder’)—floruit c. 10 BCE - 30 CE
3. Gamliy´el I Hazzaḳen (‘the Elder’)—floruit c. 30 CE - 50 CE—the Gamliy´el referred to twice in Acts (5:34, 22:3)
4. Shim`οn II—floruit c. 50 CE - 80 CE—murdered by the Romans at the time of the destruction and included among עֲשָׂרָה הֲרוּגֵי מַלְכוּת (the ‘Ten Martyrs’ murdered by the Romans)
5. Gamliy´el II d'Yavneh (‘of Yavneh’)—floruit c. 80-120 CE—was so called because he presided over the transfer of the Great Sanhedrin from Y'rushala´im to Yavneh
6. Shim`οn III ben Gamliy´el—floruit c. 120-165 CE
7. Y'hudah I Hannasi (‘the Nasi’ or ‘Prince’)—floruit c. 165-220 CE—credited with having codified the Mishnah for the first time
8. Gamliy´el III—floruit c. 220-230 CE
9. Y'hudah II ‘N'siy´ah’—floruit c. 230-270 CE—the title נְשִׂיאָה N'siy´ah is an Aramaic term that corresponds to the Hebrew הַנָּשִׂיא Hannasi (‘the Nasi’).
10. Gamliy´el IV—floruit c. 270-290 CE
11. Y'hudah III—floruit c. 290-320 CE
12. Hillel II—floruit c. 320-365 CE—referred to simply as ‘Rabbi Hillel’, was the first Nasi to publish the formula used for computing the Hebrew calendar
13. Gamliy´el V—floruit c. 365-385 CE
14. Y'hudah IV—floruit c. 385-400 CE
15. Gamliy´el VI—floruit c. 400-415 CE—reputedly overthrown as Nasi by an edict issued jointly by the Roman emperors Honorius and Theodosius II on October 17, 415 CE

Do you even know or does it even matter?

Yes. Hillel’s descendants are still here today, mostly in North America and Eretz Yisra´el.

What makes on student of the Torah greater than the next. Everyone has the same scriptures they read.

An aptitude for language, law and learning.

What makes someone a respected “teacher of the law” over the next man?

Exceptional ability, and the patience and tolerance to teach the layperson.

 

[Koichos]

Why wasn’t Jesus part of this Sanhedrin? He was considered a “teacher of the law” at the time according to the Bible ?

He was a מַמְזֵר mamzer, the most despicable status one can have in our culture: a person born from a man and a woman who are legally unable to marry, either

1. because they are immediate relatives, a child of incest or
2. because the woman is already married, a child of adultery.

A mamzer is truly a pariah in Jewish Law: he may not enter any beit k'neset (prayer-hall), or be included in any minyan `asarah (prayer-group; other than on Yοm Kippur, of course, which is why we announce: אָנוּ מַתִּירִים לְהִתְפַּלֵּל עִם הָעֲבַרְיָנִים prior to Kοl nidre); and, perhaps worst of all, the Tοrah in Parashat ‘Ki Tetze’ 23:2 prescribes that he may not marry any other Jew, with the exceptions of (i) another mamzeret or (ii) a convert, although the latter is much discouraged because all such offspring would be mamzerim!

So great is the stigma attached to such a person, that when the 2nd-century tanna (‘teacher’), Shim`οn ben `Azza´i, refers to a particular mamzer in the g'mara, he cannot even bring himself to call the individual concerned by name!

אָמַר רִבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן עַזַּי, מָצָֽאתִי מְגִלַּת יוֹחָסִין בִּירוּשָׁלַֽיִם וְכָתוּב בָּהּ אִישׁ פְּלֹנִי מַמְזֵר מֵאֵֽשֶׁת אִישׁ׃​

Said Rav Shim`οn ben `Azza´i: I once found a Y'rushalmi genealogical record, and written in it was the statement ‘Ish p'lοni is a mamzer, [having been born] from [an illicit union with] a married woman.’

The term אִישׁ פְּלֹנִי ish p'lοni means ‘so-and-so’, but literally ‘that man’ (whom we all know about). It has even been suggested that this was an oblique reference to Yeshu.

 

[DoubleClutch]

He was a מַמְזֵר mamzer, the most despicable status one can have in our culture: a person born from a man and a woman who are legally unable to marry, either

1. because they are immediate relatives, a child of incest or
2. because the woman is already married, a child of adultery.

A mamzer is truly a pariah in Jewish Law: he may not enter any beit k'neset (prayer-hall), or be included in any minyan `asarah (prayer-group; other than on Yοm Kippur, of course, which is why we announce: אָנוּ מַתִּירִים לְהִתְפַּלֵּל עִם הָעֲבַרְיָנִים prior to Kοl nidre); and, perhaps worst of all, the Tοrah in Parashat ‘Ki Tetze’ 23:2 prescribes that he may not marry any other Jew, with the exceptions of (i) another mamzeret or (ii) a convert, although the latter is much discouraged because all such offspring would be mamzerim!

So great is the stigma attached to such a person, that when the 2nd-century tanna (‘teacher’), Shim`οn ben `Azza´i, refers to a particular mamzer in the g'mara, he cannot even bring himself to call the individual concerned by name!

The term אִישׁ פְּלֹנִי ish p'lοni means ‘so-and-so’, but literally ‘that man’ (whom we all know about). It has even been suggested that this was an oblique reference to Yeshu.

Ahhh I see.

Interesting insight. I never knew this.

So Jesus had no shot at being accepted as Messiah (or any other type of Jewish leader) unless you first accept he was born of a divine nature and literally the “son of God”?

What’s the earliest record of Jesus in Jewish writings/history?

 

[Koichos]

Ahhh I see.

Interesting insight. I never knew this.

So Jesus had no shot at being accepted as Messiah (or any other type of Jewish leader) unless you first accept he was born of a divine nature and literally the “son of God”?

A Jew’s tribal affiliation follows that of the father; a mother’s tribal affiliation is completely irrelevant as her offspring’s tribal status is that of the semen-supplier. And since the messiah must be a direct, patrilineal descendant of David (through his son Sh'lomοh), a half-human, half-divine hybrid man-god would therefore not be part of any tribe.

What’s the earliest record of Jesus in Jewish writings/history?

Sometime in the first half of the Common Era, but in what text I don’t know for certain.

 

[DoubleClutch]

A Jew’s tribal affiliation follows that of the father; a mother’s tribal affiliation is completely irrelevant as her offspring’s tribal status is that of the semen-supplier. And since the messiah must be a direct, patrilineal descendant of David (through his son Sh'lomοh), a half-human, half-divine hybrid man-god would therefore not be part of any tribe.


Sometime in the first half of the Common Era, but in what text I don’t know for certain.

I’ll get back to tribal affiliation later but on a side topic….

I was just talking to a Muslim (not the type like the ones on the Coli but one who actually was interested in learning and having a open discussions), and we got on the topic of “judgement day” or the “last day” as they refer to it

And it got me thinking


In Judaism is there any concept of Gods judgement at a specific moment in time on earth?

Or are Jews exempt from “Judgment day” if it was in fact a real thing that’s going to happen in the future

If not do you see this purely as an invention of Christians based on the teachings of Jesus (which Jews today don’t follow)?

I feel like I should know the answer to this already, But I’ll take your answer as confirmation

 

[Sccit]

BROTHER

U NEED TO STOP WASTING YOUR TIME WATCHING THESE BASELESS VIDEOS

AND LEARN HEBREW INSTEAD

MOST SOURCES ONLINE ARE BUNK WHEN IT COMES TO JUDAISM

IF YOURE SO INTERESTED THEN START WITH ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS

THE LANGUAGE

 

[Koichos]

I’ll get back to tribal affiliation later but on a side topic….

I was just talking to a Muslim (not the type like the ones on the Coli but one who actually was interested in learning and having a open discussions), and we got on the topic of “judgement day” or the “last day” as they refer to it

And it got me thinking


In Judaism is there any concept of Gods judgement at a specific moment in time on earth?

Or are Jews exempt from “Judgment day” if it was in fact a real thing that’s going to happen in the future

If not do you see this purely as an invention of Christians based on the teachings of Jesus (which Jews today don’t follow)?

I feel like I should know the answer to this already, But I’ll take your answer as confirmation

Rosh Hashanah (New Year’s, 1st Tishri) is our yearly ‘judgement day’, which is then ‘sealed’ ten days later on Yοm Kippur (Day of Atonement, 10th Tishri). There is a piyyuṭ (solemn prayer-poem) known as וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף untanneh tοḳef (‘let us now tell how utterly holy this day is!’) that features prominently amid the prayer-hall services on both days:

בְּרֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה יִכָּתֵבוּן
:וּבְיוֹם צוֹם כִּפּוּר יֵחָתֵמוּן
כַּמָּה יַעַבְרוּן וְכַמָּה יִבָּרֵאוּן
מִי יִחְיֶה וּמִי יָמוּת
מִי בְקִִצּוֹ וּמִי לֹא בְקִִצּוֹ
מִי בַמַּיִם וּמִי בָאֵשׁ
מִי בַחֶרֶב וּמִי בַחַיָּה
מִי בָרָעָב וּמִי בַצָּמָא
מִי בָרַעַשׁ וּמִי בַמַּגֵּפָה
;מִי בַחֲֲנִיקָה וּמִי בִסְקִילָה
מִי יָנוּחַ וּמִי יָנוּעַַ
מִי יִשָּׁקֵט וּמִי יִטָּרֵף
מִי יִשָּׁלֵו וּמִי יִתְיַסָּר
מִי יֵעָנִי וּמִי יֵעָשֵׁר
—מִי יִשָּׁפֵל וּמִי יָרוּם
וּתְשׁוּבָה וּתְפִלָּה וּצְדָקָה
!מַעֲֲבִירִין אֶת רוֹעַ הַגְּזֵרָה​

On Rοsh Hashanah it will be inscribed
and on the fast of Yοm Kippur it will be sealed—
who will pass away and who will be created;
who will live and who will die,
who at his time and who before his time;
who by water and who by fire,
who by sword and who by a wild animal,
who by hunger and who by thirst,
who by upheaval and who by plague,
who by strangling and who by stoning;
who will rest and who will wander,
who will live in harmony and who will be harassed,
who will enjoy tranquility and who will suffer,
who will become poor and who will become rich,
who will be degraded and who will be exalted—
but repentance, prayer and charity
mitigate the severity of the decree!

Because of this, the greeting exchanged on Rοsh Hashanah is to wish one another

• כְּתִיבָה וַחֲֲתִימָה טוֹבָה k'tivah vaħatimah ṭοvah (‘a favorable inscription and sealing’);

however, after Rοsh Hashanah has passed, the greeting changes to

• גְּמַר חֲתִימָה טוֹבָה g'mar ħatimah ṭοvah (‘a favorable sealing’)

because the ‘writing’ has already been done.