What did 2nd Temple Judaism Believe……REALLY?

[DoubleClutch]

Rosh Hashanah (New Year’s, 1st Tishri) is our yearly ‘judgement day’, which is then ‘sealed’ ten days later on Yοm Kippur (Day of Atonement, 10th Tishri). There is a piyyuṭ (solemn prayer-poem) known as וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף untanneh tοḳef (‘let us now tell how utterly holy this day is!’) that features prominently amid the prayer-hall services on both days:

Because of this, the greeting exchanged on Rοsh Hashanah is to wish one another

• כְּתִיבָה וַחֲֲתִימָה טוֹבָה k'tivah vaħatimah ṭοvah (‘a favorable inscription and sealing’);

however, after n

Ok so every year your sins are wiped clean?

And how, by who, and when are the “non Jews” judged?

When the messiah comes is that the end of Rosh Hashanah?

 

[Koichos]

Ok so every year your sins are wiped clean?

Yes. God provided Yisra´el with an annual ‘Atonement Day’ (יוֹם כִּפּוּר Yοm Kippur; though the biblical term is actually plural: יוֹם כִּפֻּרִים yοm kippurim, ‘a day of atonements’ - Vayyiḳra 23:28), on which we are to fast in order to be ‘forgiven for all our sins’. Yοm Kippur is a kind of ‘safety net’, a day when we assemble as a nation in our batei k'neset (‘prayer-halls’) and batei midrash (‘study-halls’) to make a generalized, communal confession before God of all the wrongs for which we have not already made ‘atonement’:

וְהָֽיְתָֿ֥הֿ לָכֶֿ֖ם לְחֻקַּ֣תֿ עוֹלָ֑ם בַּחֹ֣דֶֿשׁ הַ֠שְּׁבִֿיעִי בֶּֽעָשׂ֨וֹר לַחֹ֜דֶֿשׁ תְּעַנּ֣וּ אֶתֿ־נַפְֿשֹֽׁתֵֿיכֶ֗ם וְכׇֿל־מְלָאֿכָֿה֙ לֹ֣א תַֽֿעֲשׂ֔וּ הָֽאֶזְרָ֔ח וְהַגֵּ֖ר הַגָּ֥ר בְּתֽֿוֹכְֿכֶֽֿם׃ כִּי־בַֿיּ֥וֹם הַזֶּ֛הֿ יְכַֿפֵּ֥ר עֲלֵיכֶֿ֖ם לְטַהֵ֣ר אֶתְֿכֶֿ֑ם מִכֹּל֙ חַטֹּ֣אֿתֵֿיכֶ֔ם לִפְֿנֵ֥י יְיָ֖ תִּטְהָֽרוּ׃ שַׁבַּ֨תֿ שַׁבָּתֿ֥וֹן הִיא֙ לָכֶ֔ם וְעִנִּיתֶֿ֖ם אֶתֿ־נַפְֿשֹֽׁתֵֿיכֶֿ֑ם חֻקַּ֖תֿ עוֹלָֽם׃​

‘[This] will be an eternal statute for you: you are to fast and do no m'la´chah on the tenth [day] of the seventh month [of Tishri]—both the citizens and [also] any gerim living among you, because on that day He will provide forgiveness for you; before Adοnai will you be purged of all your sins! This is to be the greatest of all your shabbatοt and you are to fast [on it]—this is an eternal statute.’ (Vayyiḳra 16:29-31)

---

וְהָֽיְתָֿהֿ־זֹּ֨אֿתֿ לָכֶ֜ם לְחֻקַּ֣תֿ עוֹלָ֗ם לְכַֿפֵּ֞ר עַל־בְּנֵ֤י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ מִכׇּל־חַטֹּאֿתָ֔ם אַחַ֖תֿ בַּשָּׁנָ֑הֿ וַיַּ֕עַשׂ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֛ר צִוָּ֥הֿ יְיָ֖ אֶתֿ־מֹשֶֽׁהֿ׃​

‘[This] will be an eternal statute for you for bringing forgiveness to Yisra´el’s descendants for all their sins on one day every year.’ So he [Aharοn] did what Adοnai had commanded Mοsheh. (Vayyiḳra 16:34)

And the opportunity to do t'shuvah is always available, as we say in the וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף piyyuṭ on Rοsh Hashanah and Yοm Kippur:

וְעַד יוֹם מוֹתוֹ תְּחַכֶּה לוֹ אִם יָשׁוּב מִיָּד תְּקַבְּלוֹ׃​

Until the very day he dies You will be waiting for him; if he does t'shuvah, You will accept him right away!

And how, by who, and when are the “non Jews” judged?

Everyone’s judgement, Jews and non-Jews alike, is ‘sealed’ on Yοm Kippur. The original וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף passage quoted in my post#30 is immediately preceded by the following:

;וְכׇל בָּאֵי עוֹלָם יַעַבְרוּן לְפָנֶיךָ כִּבְנֵי מָרוֹן
כְּבַקָּרַת רוֹעֶה עֶדְרוֹ
—מַעֲבִיר צֹאנוֹ תַּחַת שִׁבְטוֹ
כֵּן תַּעֲבִיר וְתִסְפֹּר וְתִמְנֶה וְתִפְקֹד נֶפֶשׁ כׇּל חָי
וְתַחְתֹּךְ קִצְבָה לְכׇל בְּרִיּוֹתֶיךָ
.וְתִכְתֹּב אֶת גְּזַר דִּינָם​

All mankind will pass before You like a flock of sheep.
Like a shepherd pasturing his flock,
making his sheep pass under his staff [in order to count them] —
so will You make them pass, count, calculate, and consider the souls of all living people;
and You will apportion the destinies of all Your creatures
and inscribe their verdict.

When the messiah comes is that the end of Rosh Hashanah?

Why do you think the Tοrah will change when the messiah comes? In fact, there is a mahalοḳet (dispute) in the g'mara on whether he comes on Rοsh Hashanah or Pesah.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yes. God provided Yisra´el with an annual ‘Atonement Day’ (יוֹם כִּפּוּר Yοm Kippur; though the biblical term is actually plural: יוֹם כִּפֻּרִים yοm kippurim, ‘a day of atonements’ - Vayyiḳra 23:28), on which we are to fast in order to be ‘forgiven for all our sins’. Yοm Kippur is a kind of ‘safety net’, a day when we assemble as a nation in our batei k'neset (‘prayer-halls’) and batei midrash (‘study-halls’) to make a generalized, communal confession before God of all the wrongs for which we have not already made ‘atonement’:


And the opportunity to do t'shuvah is always available, as we say in the וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף piyyuṭ on Rοsh Hashanah and Yοm Kippur:



Everyone’s judgement, Jews and non-Jews alike, is ‘sealed’ on Yοm Kippur. The original וּנְתַנֶּה תֹּקֶף passage quoted in my post#30 is immediately preceded by the following:



Why do you think the Tοrah will change when the messiah comes? In fact, there is a mahalοḳet (dispute) in the g'mara on whether he comes on Rοsh Hashanah or Pesah.

1. So Yom Kippur is basically Ramadan for Muslims

2. Why do I think the Tοrah will change when the messiah comes?

I didn’t say the Torah will change. I’m just assuming no more sinning in “paradise” so no need for forgiveness rituals and judgement

Plus how can you be sinful and in Gods presence at the same time?

Adam walked with God before he sinned. Afterwards he was removed from the “garden” and Gods presence

 

[Koichos]

1. So Yom Kippur is basically Ramadan for Muslims

2. Why do I think the Tοrah will change when the messiah comes?

I didn’t say the Torah will change. I’m just assuming no more sinning in “paradise” so no need for forgiveness rituals and judgement

Plus how can you be sinful and in Gods presence at the same time?

Adam walked with God before he sinned. Afterwards he was removed from the “garden” and Gods presence

When the time comes, the messiah will bring a sin offering on behalf of himself and all Yisra´el (Y'ħezḳel 45:22). As for ‘paradise’, in the Hebrew context the word is פַּרְדֵּס pardes (occurring in Shir Hashirim 4:13, N'ħemyah 2:8), and in the plural פַּרְדֵּסִים pardesim (in Ḳοhelet 2:5), but it means an orchard; or, in modern usage, an orange grove.

You really ought to read the last two chapters of Ramba"m’s ‘Mishneh Tοrah’ which he devotes to King-Mashiyaħ and the Messianic Age (Hilchοt M'lachim chs. 11-12):

אַל יַעֲלֶה עַל הַלֵּב שֶׁבִּימוֹת הַמָּשִׁיחַ יִבָּטֵל דָּבָר מִמִּנְהָגוֹ שֶׁלָּעוֹלָם, אוֹ יִהְיֶה שָׁם חִדּוּשׁ בְּמַעֲשֵׂה בְּרֵאשִׁית; אֶלָּּא עוֹלָם כְּמִנְהָגוֹ הוֹלֵךְ. וְזֶה שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר בִּישַׁעְיָה (יא,ו) "וְגָֿ֚ר זְאֵב֙ עִם־כֶּ֔בֶֿשׂ, וְנָמֵ֖ר עִם־גְּדִֿ֣י יִרְבָּ֑ץ" - מָשָׁל וְחִידָה; עִנְיַן הַדָּבָר: שֶׁיִּהְיוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל יוֹשְׁבִין לָבֶטַח עִם רִשְׁעֵי הָעוֹלָם הַמְּשׁוּלִים בִּזְאֵב וְנָמֵר, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "זְאֵ֚בֿ עֲרָבֿוֹת֙ יְשָׁדְֿדֵ֔ם, נָמֵ֚ר שֹׁקֵד֙ עַל־עָ֣רֵיהֶ֔ם" (ירמיה ה,ו), וְיַחְזְרוּ כֻּלָּם לְדַת הָאֱמֶת, וְלֹא יִגְזְלוּ וְלֹא יַשְׁחִיתוּ אֶלָּא יֹאכְלוּ דָּבָר הַמֻּתָּר בְּנַחַת כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "וְאַרְיֵ֖הֿ כַּבָּקָ֥ר יֹֽאֿכַֿל־תֶּֽבֶֿן" (ישעיה יא,ז; סה,כה)​

One should not think that any aspect of Nature will change in the Era of King-Mashiyaħ, or that there will be any new features in the behavior of the physical Universe. The World will continue to function just as it does now. Although Y'sha`yah states that ‘The wolf will live at peace with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the young goat’ (Y'sha`yah 11:6), these words are just a metaphor, an allegory; that is to say, Yisra´el will live in security among the wicked gentiles who are compared to wolves and leopards... as, for example, in the verse ‘A wolf of the deserts attacks them, a leopard prowls through their cities’ (Yirm'yah 5:6). When those times come, all will return to the true faith and will no longer pillage or destroy; instead, they will eat only that which is permitted, at peace with Yisra´el—as it is written, ‘...lions will eat straw like oxen’ (Y'sha`yah 11:7).
[Mishneh Tοrah, Hilchοt M'lachim §12:1]

People will still live their lives, grow old and die; this is not `olam haba (‘the world to come’), a term that denotes the ‘afterlife’. The Messianic Era is quite different.

 

[Outlaw]

When the time comes, the messiah will bring a sin offering on behalf of himself and all Yisra´el (Y'ħezḳel 45:22). As for ‘paradise’, in the Hebrew context the word is פַּרְדֵּס pardes (occurring in Shir Hashirim 4:13, N'ħemyah 2:8), and in the plural פַּרְדֵּסִים pardesim (in Ḳοhelet 2:5), but it means an orchard; or, in modern usage, an orange grove.

You really ought to read the last two chapters of Ramba"m’s ‘Mishneh Tοrah’ which he devotes to King-Mashiyaħ and the Messianic Age (Hilchοt M'lachim chs. 11-12):

People will still live their lives, grow old and die; this is not `olam haba (‘the world to come’), a term that denotes the ‘afterlife’. The Messianic Era is quite different.

Do you believe that Jesus was a false prophet or didn’t exist at all?

 

[Koichos]

Do you believe that Jesus was a false prophet or didn’t exist at all?

False prophet. See my post#227 in this thread (starting from ‘The promises Gοd made to Avraham Avinu...’) for our most recent discussion on the subject.

 

[DoubleClutch]

When the time comes, the messiah will bring a sin offering on behalf of himself and all Yisra´el (Y'ħezḳel 45:22). As for ‘paradise’, in the Hebrew context the word is פַּרְדֵּס pardes (occurring in Shir Hashirim 4:13, N'ħemyah 2:8), and in the plural פַּרְדֵּסִים pardesim (in Ḳοhelet 2:5), but it means an orchard; or, in modern usage, an orange grove.

You really ought to read the last two chapters of Ramba"m’s ‘Mishneh Tοrah’ which he devotes to King-Mashiyaħ and the Messianic Age (Hilchοt M'lachim chs. 11-12):

People will still live their lives, grow old and die; this is not `olam haba (‘the world to come’), a term that denotes the ‘afterlife’. The Messianic Era is quite different.

Before `olam haba happens, will the Messiah live grow old and die?

 

[Koichos]

Before `olam haba happens, will the Messiah live grow old and die?

After accomplishing all his tasks, yes. (Ramba"m on Mishnah, Treatise Sanhedrin §10:1; there he brings Y'sha`yahu 42:4 as the Biblical source.)

 

[DoubleClutch]

After accomplishing all his tasks, yes. (Ramba"m on Mishnah, Treatise Sanhedrin §10:1; there he brings Y'sha`yahu 42:4 as the Biblical source.)

What are all his tasks?

And do all Jews today agree on the Ramba"m on Mishnah, Treatise Sanhedrin §10:1;

Or is this just commentary?

I was told differently

 

[Koichos]

What are all his tasks?

There are many, but as for some of the more notable among his ‘job description’, he will

• preside over the building of the third Temple in Y'rushalayim (Y'ħezḳel 37:26,28);
• preside over the reassembly of all the descendants of Ya`aḳοv Avinu in Eretz Yisra´el (Y'sha`yahu 11:12);
• reunify the Y'hudi and Yisr´eli kingdoms and reign over them whole (Y'ħezḳel 37:22,24);
• establish a kind of world peace (Y'sha`yahu 2:4, Michah 4:3-4); and
• bring about the resurrection of the dead (Y'sha`yahu 26:19, Daniyyel 12:2).

And do all Jews today agree on the Ramba"m on Mishnah, Treatise Sanhedrin §10:1;

Or is this just commentary?

I was told differently

It’s not a ruling, but commentary (and not ‘just’ - as his tombstone’s inscription begins, ממשה עד משה לא קם כמשה ‘from Mοsheh until Mοsheh there arose none like Mοsheh’). Given that Judaism is not built entirely around the messiah, who is actually only a peripheral figure in terms of the everyday life of the Jew, I doubt everyone has even read it!

 

[DoubleClutch]

There are many, but as for some of the more notable among his ‘job description’, he will

• preside over the building of the third Temple in Y'rushalayim (Y'ħezḳel 37:26,28);
• preside over the reassembly of all the descendants of Ya`aḳοv Avinu in Eretz Yisra´el (Y'sha`yahu 11:12);
• reunify the Y'hudi and Yisr´eli kingdoms and reign over them whole (Y'ħezḳel 37:22,24);
• establish a kind of world peace (Y'sha`yahu 2:4, Michah 4:3-4); and
• bring about the resurrection of the dead (Y'sha`yahu 26:19, Daniyyel 12:2).

It’s not a ruling, but commentary (and not ‘just’ - as his tombstone’s inscription begins, ממשה עד משה לא קם כמשה ‘from Mοsheh until Mοsheh there arose none like Mοsheh’). Given that Judaism is not built entirely around the messiah, who is actually only a peripheral figure in terms of the everyday life of the Jew, I doubt everyone has even read it!

Right, plus I forgot that you also believe in more than 1 “messiah”figure technically, correct?

 

[Koichos]

Right, plus I forgot that you also believe in more than 1 “messiah”figure technically, correct?

All our ancient Jewish kings were messiahs, yes. But as far as the future individuals are concerned, there is Mashiyaħ ben David and the lesser known Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef: the former is who we call ‘King-Messiah’ or simply ‘the Messiah’, a direct descendant of David through Sh'lοmoh; the latter, a direct descendant of Yοsef through Efrayim.

 

[DoubleClutch]

All our ancient Jewish kings were messiahs, yes. But as far as the future individuals are concerned, there is Mashiyaħ ben David and the lesser known Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef : the former is who we call ‘King-Messiah’ or simply ‘the Messiah’, a direct descendant of David through Sh'lοmoh; the latter, a direct descendant of Yοsef through Efrayim.

How do you know the next Messiah/King will be THE Messiah?

Ive seen Jewish communities claiming “the messiah is here” in the past

When will the Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef come?

 

[Koichos]

How do you know the next Messiah/King will be THE Messiah?

Because Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to; there is only one King-Mashiyaħ, and only he can accomplish the tasks set out for him.

Ive seen Jewish communities claiming “the messiah is here” in the past

When will the Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef come?

Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef does not have to come (Rabbeinu Sa`adyah Ga´on speaks on this in his ‘Emunοt v'De`οt’, sec. 8). And, anyway, it is forbidden to calculate these matters:

...לֹא יְחַשֵּׁב הַקִּצִּין; אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים: תִּפוּחַ דַּעְתָּן שֶׁלִּמְחַשְּׁבֵי קִצִּין. אֶלָּא יְחַכֶּה וְיַאֲמִין בִּכְלַל הַדָּבָר...​

...one should not waste his time trying to calculate the appointed time of the King-Mashiyaħ’s coming: the Rabbanim said ‘...the souls of those who attempt to calculate the time of King-Mashiyaħ’s coming deserve to perish!’ [Sanhedrin 97 column b]. Instead, one should simply await his coming, believing only in the general principles of the topic...
[Ramba"m, Mishneh Tοrah, Hilchοt M'lachim §12:5]

Rather,

אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה בְּבִיאַת הַמָּשִֽׁיחַ, וְאַף־עַל־פִּי שֶׁיִּתְמַהְמֵֽהַּ, עִם־כׇּל־זֶה אַחֲכֶּה לּוֹ בְּכׇל יוֹם שֶׁיָּבוֹא׃​

I firmly believe in the coming of the Mashiyaħ; and, although he has been delayed, even so I shall still anticipate his arrival each and every day.
[No. 12 of Ramba"m’s ‘Thirteen Principles’ of our Faith]

Not only can he come at any time, but when the King-Mashiyaħ finally makes his appearance it will be very sudden and unexpected. As the prophet Mal´achi writes,

הִנְנִ֤י שֹׁלֵ֨חַ֙ מַלְאָכִ֔י וּפִֿנָּהֿ־דֶֿ֖רֶךְֿ לְפָֿנָ֑י
וּפִֿתְֿאֹם֩ יָבֿוֹ֨א אֶל־הֵֽיכָֿל֜וֹ הָֽאָדֿ֣וֹן ׀ אֲשֶׁר־אַתֶּ֣ם מְבַֿקְשִׁ֗ים
וּמַלְאַ֨ךְֿ הַבְּרִ֜יתֿ אֲשֶׁ֨ר אַתֶּ֤ם חֲפֵֿצִים֙ הִנֵּהֿ־בָ֔א
אָמַ֖ר יְיָ֥ צְבָֿאֽוֹת׃​

‘See, I am sending My messenger to clear the way before Me;
the master you are seeking will suddenly enter his palace
and the Covenant Angel that you desire – wow, it’s on its way!’
declares Adοnai of Armies! (Mal´achi 3:1)

 

[DoubleClutch]

Because Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to; there is only one King-Mashiyaħ, and only he can accomplish the tasks set out for him.


Mashiyaħ ben Yοsef does not have to come (Rabbeinu Sa`adyah Ga´on speaks on this in his ‘Emunοt v'De`οt’, sec. 8). And, anyway, it is forbidden to calculate these matters:

Rather,

Not only can he come at any time, but when the King-Mashiyaħ finally makes his appearance it will be very sudden and unexpected. As the prophet Mal´achi writes,

It’s funny how at this point in history you believe pretty much the same as Christians regarding the coming of the messiah.

And around the time Muhammad is said to have lived Jews and Christian were also think the same thing

Then Islam took over and took the “ruling” matter into their own hands literally.

The Arabs established their own King and Nations, and government.

If any Jewish leader (who wasn’t the messiah) tried to establish himself as “King”, rebuilt the temple, sat on the “throne”, and tried to fight other nations what would happen to him?

Will the “King Messiah” to come in Judaism rule Israel only or the entire world?