What Do You Believe In...7th or Hell?: The OFFICIAL 2014-15 Boston Celtics Thread

Will Rajon Rondo Be An All-Star?

  • Yes (by fan votes)

    Votes: 5 20.0%
  • Yes (by coach's selection)

    Votes: 7 28.0%
  • No

    Votes: 13 52.0%

  • Total voters
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Sure we'd get our #1 scorer but defense has been a much bigger problem for us than offense. We're 6th in offensive efficiency but 27th in defensive efficiency. We've given up 108 points a night so far and that's not counting tonight where we gave up 118. You're not really gonna have any success if you can't defend and Love is one of the worst defensive players in the league.

But since we are trying to contend this year, it couldn't hurt to have Love. I mean him on the offense we have now would create an even better offense. So the defense wouldn't have to be so strong. We would be a fun 7/8 seed team. In FA or trades I'm sure we could've landed an athletic rim protector.
 

William F. Russell

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Rondo got the better of John Wall and the Wizards today. And he notched a triple-double.

Rondo>Wall.
 

William F. Russell

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Rondo's 11.2 apg leads the league.

He also leads the league in triple-doubles with two in 2014-15.

He's on pace to become the shortest player in league history to bring down at least 7.5 rebounds a night. He's also on pace to join Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson as the only players to ever average at least 8pts/7rebs/11 asts for an entire season.

There's is NO denying that Rondo is an elite PG.

I hope Celtics' management makes the right decision.



EDIT: The Celtics score 103.8 points per 100 possessions with Rondo, compared to 100.7 when he's on the bench. That's the difference between ranking 17th and 24th in offensive efficiency. Neither is good, but the latter is much worse. And Rondo has this impact without a No. 1 option.
 
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SchoolboyC

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Define "right decision"

I'm not here for giving Rondo the max or anything close to it.
 

William F. Russell

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Define "right decision"

I'm not here for giving Rondo the max or anything close to it.

I meant keeping him.

If I had my way, Rondo would get near-max. Aside from his shooting woes, he's done the most he can with an inexperienced and limited team. He's the league leader in assists, a great defender, and is on pace to make history. And his championship/all-star credentials are very valuable intangibles. Moreover, we must remember that Rondo's game is not to be the number one option on offense but to be a playmaker. He excels at creating plays on offense and setting up his teammates.

If he wasn't in his current offensive slump, I'd consider giving Rondo a max contract.

Nonetheless, if we keep him (HOPEFULLY!), management NEEDS to surround him with better talent than what he has now.
 

SchoolboyC

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I wouldn't pay Rondo any more than $12 mil a year, which is exactly what Lowry got. They're the same age and Lowry at this point is the better overall player.
 

William F. Russell

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I wouldn't pay Rondo any more than $12 mil a year, which is exactly what Lowry got. They're the same age and Lowry at this point is the better overall player.


1. Players are compensated according to their respective values to their teams. Although it's a factor, you can't decide to compensate a player solely based on how other players at the same position are paid. Rondo is the last remaining player from that 2008 championship team. And he's the team's best playmaker and one the team's best perimeter/one-on-one defenders. He has a demonstrated history of improving his game come the playoffs. How many career playoff triple doubles does Lowry have? How many playoffs series has Lowry dominated? Has he ever caused damage in a series against a LeBron-led squad? For me, Rondo is worth more to the Celtics than $12M a year. It's only dude's rookie season but I can't fathom Marcus Smart ever achieving like Rondo has.

2. That's very debatable at best. Their credentials say otherwise. Plus Rondo leads the league in assists. And he's on pace to make history (see above post). Lowry's a beast but let's not get in the habit of overrating him when we're not even 20 games into this season.
 

William F. Russell

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@SchoolboyC


A comparison of Rondo's and Lowry's respective best seasons AND postseasons:


Kyle Lowry's 2014 regular season: 17.9 points, 7.4 assists, 4.7 rebounds (1.1 ORPG), 1.5 steals, 2.5 turnovers, 42.3 FG%, 38% 3-point, 81.3% FT. 36.2 minutes.

Kyle Lowry's 2014 playoffs:
21.1 points, 4.7 assists, 4.7 rebounds (1.3 ORPG), 0.9 steals, 2.9 turnovers, 40.4 FG%, 39.5% 3-point, 87.7%FT, 38.7 minutes.

vs.

Rajon Rondo 2011-2012 season: 11.9 points, 11.7 assists, 4.8 rebounds (1.2 ORPG), 1.8 steals, 3.6 turnovers, 44.8% FG, 24% 3-point, 59.7%FT, 36.9 minutes.

Rajon Rondo 2011-2012 playoffs:17.3 points, 11.9 assists, 6.7 rebounds (1.8 ORPG), 2.4 steals, 3.8 turnovers, 46.8% FG, 26.7% 3-point, 69.6% FT, 42.6 minutes.


*Kyle Lowry played 7 games in the playoffs
*Rajon Rondo played 19 games in the playoffs



Notice how Lowry's assists, FG%, and steals in the playoffs dipped from his regular season numbers and his turnovers increased slightly.

Keep in mind 2 things: 1. Rondo's team is nowhere near a good a team as Lowry's
2. Rondo didn't play for the majority of last season because of an ACL injury
 

SchoolboyC

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1. Players are compensated according to their respective values to their teams. Although it's a factor, you can't decide to compensate a player solely based on how other players at the same position are paid. Rondo is the last remaining player from that 2008 championship team. And he's the team's best playmaker and one the team's best perimeter/one-on-one defenders. He has a demonstrated history of improving his game come the playoffs. How many career playoff triple doubles does Lowry have? How many playoffs series has Lowry dominated? Has he ever caused damage in a series against a LeBron-led squad? For me, Rondo is worth more to the Celtics than $12M a year. It's only dude's rookie season but I can't fathom Marcus Smart ever achieving like Rondo has.

2. That's very debatable at best. Their credentials say otherwise. Plus Rondo leads the league in assists. And he's on pace to make history (see above post). Lowry's a beast but let's not get in the habit of overrating him when we're not even 20 games into this season.

1. Why pay Rondo the max when players on the same tier as him aren't paid that much? Frankly I don't give a damn what Rondo did in the playoffs 3-4 years ago, that his little impact on how should be compensated for the next 4-5 years.

2.
Player A: PER of 14.58, 8.3 PPG, FG% of 38.6, 3P% of 26.9, FT% of 32.4, 7.4 RPG, 10.8 APG, 1.6 SPG, 3.4 turnovers per game

Player B: PER of 23.42, 20.1 PPG, FG% of 43.5, 3P% of 31.0, FT% of 81.2, 4.8 RPG, 7.5 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.8 turnovers per game

Lowry had a better statistical season last year than Rondo has ever had. And he's on pace to do even better this year. You keep referencing what Rondo did 3-4 seasons ago, who gives a fukk? It's 2014, not 2011. There is literally no argument for Rondo being better than Lowry in 2014.
 

William F. Russell

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1. Why pay Rondo the max when players on the same tier as him aren't paid that much? Frankly I don't give a damn what Rondo did in the playoffs 3-4 years ago, that his little impact on how should be compensated for the next 4-5 years.

You're shifting goalposts. I said Rondo shouldn't be paid the same as Lowry. More specifically, I said that Rondo should be paid more than what Lowry is paid.

But, anyways...

Nobody knows what the future holds for both players (or for any player, for that matter). Our best way to prepare for the unknown is to use what we do know and plan accordingly. And we know that Rondo is the league-leader in assists and has the most triple doubles in the league thus far in the season. We know that Rondo is also a premier playmaker and one-on-one/perimeter defender. We know that Rondo is a fantastic rebounder for a point guard. We know that in every playoffs series in which he's played, he's stepped up his level of play significantly. All of what we know about Rondo merits him earning more than $12M per year. At the same age, Lowry is now starting to distinguish himself as a top PG. We know that he is a better scorer than Rondo. But we also know that he's NOWHERE as good as a playmaker as Rondo and he's not as good as a defender as Rondo. Lowry is playing like a guy earning $12M/year. Rondo (poor shooting notwithstanding) plays better than Lowry. Rondo deserves more money than Lowry.

2.
Player A: PER of 14.58, 8.3 PPG, FG% of 38.6, 3P% of 26.9, FT% of 32.4, 7.4 RPG, 10.8 APG, 1.6 SPG, 3.4 turnovers per game

Player B: PER of 23.42, 20.1 PPG, FG% of 43.5, 3P% of 31.0, FT% of 81.2, 4.8 RPG, 7.5 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.8 turnovers per game

Lowry had a better statistical season last year than Rondo has ever had. And he's on pace to do the same this year. You keep referencing what Rondo did 3-4 seasons ago, who gives a fukk? It's 2014, not 2011. There is literally no argument for Rondo being better than Lowry in 2014.


1. With all due respect, if you use PER to say "NBA player A" is better than "NBA player B", you're an idiot. PER is not effective in measuring a player's defensive contributions. Hollinger/ESPN's formula for PER includes blocked shots and steals, however if PER cannot measure a player's defensive skills, why include two defensive stats in the formula? A player can have a large number of steals and blocked shots, even though he is a lousy defender in the team concept (which is the only thing that matters). The reason for this, of course, is that lots of steals and blocked shots are the result of a player abandoning his team defensive responsibilities to gamble for a steal or a blocked shot. Defense is every bit as important as offense in any sport, but far too many people take PER as a gospel number to compare two players.

Even Hollinger (the creator of PER) freely admits that PER is not the least bit effective in measuring a player's defensive contributions.

Moreover, PER itself isn't even a consistent indicator of a player's offensive contributions to his team. According to Hollinger/ESPN, each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots.


2. Lowry had a "better" season because Rondo played much fewer games AFTER he recovered from his ACL injury. And Rondo's team was already out of playoffs contention upon his return to the team.

Lowry last year: 18ppg, 7apg, 5rpg, 2spg while shooting 42% from the field and 38% from behind the arc.
Rondo last year: 12ppg, 10apg, 6rpg, 1spg while shooting 40% from the field and 29% from behind the arc

Lowry this year: 20ppg, 8apg, 5rpg, 1spg while shooting 44% from the field and 31% from behind the arc
Rondo this year: 8ppg, 11apg, 7rpg, 2spg while shooting 39% from the field and 27% from behind the arc


The numbers themselves indicate that, outside of scoring, Rondo trumps Lowry in all meaningful stats. Rondo's a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, and defender. That's before we start talking about career accomplishments. Lowry's FG% isn't even much better than Rondo's. The difference is negligible in that category at best. And as bad as Rondo's been shooting 3s (and in general) this season, Lowry has been almost as poor (27% compared to 31%).

I have NO IDEA how you swear Lowry is a better overall player than Rondo when the stats prove otherwise and EVERYBODY knows that Rondo is a pass-first player.


:umad:
 

SchoolboyC

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But, anyways...

Nobody knows what the future holds for both players (or for any player, for that matter). Our best way to prepare for the unknown is to use what we do know and plan accordingly. And we know that Rondo is the league-leader in assists and has the most triple doubles in the league thus far in the season. We know that Rondo is also a premier playmaker and one-on-one/perimeter defender. We know that Rondo is a fantastic rebounder for a point guard. We know that in every playoffs series in which he's played, he's stepped up his level of play significantly. All of what we know about Rondo merits him earning more than $12M per year. At the same age, Lowry is now starting to distinguish himself as a top PG. We know that he is a better scorer than Rondo. But we also know that he's NOWHERE as good as a playmaker as Rondo and he's not as good as a defender as Rondo. Lowry is playing like a guy earning $12M/year. Rondo (poor shooting notwithstanding) plays better than Lowry. Rondo deserves more money than Lowry.

Rondo's such a great defender that's why on average the player he defends shoots 3% higher than their normal average when he's guarding them right? Rondo was a great defender at one time, but his defense has regressed over the years. He's a matador defender. And don't reference some stupid ass All-Defensive team award like you always do because those shyts are meaningless. fukking James Harden got an all-defensive team vote last year.

1. With all due respect, if you use PER to say "NBA player A" is better than "NBA player B", you're an idiot. PER is not effective in measuring a player's defensive contributions. Hollinger/ESPN's formula for PER includes blocked shots and steals, however if PER cannot measure a player's defensive skills, why include two defensive stats in the formula? A player can have a large number of steals and blocked shots, even though he is a lousy defender in the team concept (which is the only thing that matters). The reason for this, of course, is that lots of steals and blocked shots are the result of a player abandoning his team defensive responsibilities to gamble for a steal or a blocked shot. Defense is every bit as important as offense in any sport, but far too many people take PER as a gospel number to compare two players.

PER will tell you who's putting up better numbers though. And Lowry is putting up significantly better numbers than Rondo and better numbers than Rondo has ever had. Lowry last season and so far this season has put up better numbers than Rondo did in his very best season. And furthermore, I never claimed that PER evaluated a player's defensive impact so stop with that shyt.

2. Lowry had a "better" season because Rondo played much fewer games AFTER he recovered from his ACL injury. And Rondo's team was already out of playoffs contention upon his return to the team.

Reading comprehension, I wasn't comparing their numbers from last season. I said Lowry's numbers last season were better than any season Rondo has ever had.

Lowry last year: 18ppg, 7apg, 5rpg, 2spg while shooting 42% from the field and 38% from behind the arc.
Rondo last year: 12ppg, 10apg, 6rpg, 1spg while shooting 40% from the field and 29% from behind the arc

Lowry this year: 20ppg, 8apg, 5rpg, 1spg while shooting 44% from the field and 31% from behind the arc
Rondo this year: 8ppg, 11apg, 7rpg, 2spg while shooting 39% from the field and 27% from behind the arc

I love how you conveniently left out the FT percentages, where Lowry has shot 81% the last two seasons while Rondo shot 63% last year and is shooting 32% this year. Rondo is literally shooting worse than DeAndre Jordan & Andre Drummond from the free throw line this year but you think he deserves the max or close to it

The numbers themselves indicate that, outside of scoring, Rondo trumps Lowry in all meaningful stats. Rondo's a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, and defender.

The gap between Rondo and Lowry as scorers is significantly, and I do mean SIGNIFICANTLY larger than the gap as playmakers, rebounders and defenders. Lowry's coach isn't benching him in the final minutes of a game because he's scared the other team will send him to the free throw line like Stevens had to do a couple games ago.

That's before we start talking about career accomplishments.

Once again, I don't give a damn what Rondo & Lowry were doing in 2010, that his little to no relevance on how Rondo should get paid from 2015 to 2019. Do you think Deron Williams is worth his contract just because he was great in 4 years ago?

Lowry's FG% isn't even much better than Rondo's. The difference is negligible in that category at best. And as bad as Rondo's been shooting 3s (and in general) this season, Lowry has been almost as poor (27% compared to 31%).

When you factor in that Rondo doesn't shoot nearly the same amount of jumpers that Lowry yet has a lower FG percentage, that's pretty pathetic.

I have NO IDEA how you swear Lowry is a better overall player than Rondo when the stats prove otherwise and EVERYBODY knows that Rondo is a pass-first player.


:umad:

Lol at y'all always using him being a pass first PG as an excuse for his shortcomings. There's plenty of other pass-first PG's in the league that also don't manage to be the worst scoring point guard in the league and a liability down the stretch in 4th quarters because their team is basically playing 4 on 5 offense :skip:
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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well done gentlemen. finally a decent back and forth in this thread. im thoroughly enjoying the rondo civil war and will let @SchoolboyC be my representative on this matter for now.

and no we dont need a go to scorer. we need better plays to get a bucket in crunch time. our system is putting up pts like crazy and to think that a go to scorer is what is the missing piece is retarded. id rather keep jeff green at his contract/projected contract than rondo at the max. :devil:

oh and by the way we need to trade olynyk asap cuz his value is not going to get higher
 

SchoolboyC

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:popcorn:

well done gentlemen. finally a decent back and forth in this thread. im thoroughly enjoying the rondo civil war and will let @SchoolboyC be my representative on this matter for now.

and no we dont need a go to scorer. we need better plays to get a bucket in crunch time. our system is putting up pts like crazy and to think that a go to scorer is what is the missing piece is retarded. id rather keep jeff green at his contract/projected contract than rondo at the max. :devil:

oh and by the way we need to trade olynyk asap cuz his value is not going to get higher

Yeah I'm highly disappointed by Olynyk. It's not even that he's a bad player he's just so soft. I cringe every time I see him afraid to shoot a 3 pointer over a guard when he's a goddamn 7 footer.
 
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