Who has the higher ceiling: Kyrie Irving or John Wall?

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

nikka furious cuz his argument got picked apart

You didn't pick apart. You're all over the place because you have no evidence for your claims. I bet you didn't even watch those Cavs games when Bron was out.

Answer the question -

@My neck and my back

What PGs have won regularly with players/starting lineups equivalent to -

Dallaedova
Mike Miller
Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson

That's what Kyrie had to play with when Bron was out. I'd like to know who these PGs are.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

no he would.. lebron would have to play PF at least 2 quarters a games..

john wall would have that Wade role the other two quaters..

so far this makes a better tandem for lebron as his FG% goes really high when he can post more.

It wouldn't work. Bron can't play off the ball. And Wall can't either - he handles the ball more than every other player in the league not named MCW. Wall playing like Wade...... you're kidding right? Wade is one of the best off ball guards in the last decade. Wall is useless without the ball in his hands.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@My neck and my back - 'Other PGs have won with players out - no excuse for why Kyrie can't either'

@Gil Scott-Heroin - Did those PGs win with players equal to Matthew Dallaedova, Mike Millers, Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson

@My neck and my back's brain - *oh shyt since I never watched those games, I never knew how bad those lineups really were - I guess I fukked up.*

@My neck and my back - "nikka furious cuz his argument got picked apart"

 

[My neck and my back]

You didn't pick apart. You're all over the place because you have no evidence for your claims. I bet you didn't even watch those Cavs games when Bron was out.

Answer the question -

i stuck to the same argument since i commented in this thread...fukk the if's and buts...that nikka ain't did shyt without bron but ONE game that your using as an crutch for your argument that's why i made the comparison to corey brewer...your question is stupid when k love alone is better then most of the pg's on the list that you named...cp3 had hawes instead of blake, lowry played a stretch without derozan, steph played without klay, russy played damn near the whole season without kd, and etc...players get injured you fukkin pea brain...the difference is that great players step up and carry their team...kyrie didn't and hasn't carried any team for that matter to a successful record...so until then...he ain't better than players who have carried their team

 

[Goat poster]

It wouldn't work. Bron can't play off the ball. And Wall can't either - he handles the ball more than every other player in the league not named MCW. Wall playing like Wade...... you're kidding right? Wade is one of the best off ball guards in the last decade. Wall is useless without the ball in his hands.

WHen are you gonna stop pushing this bullshyt narrative

How do you explain his olympic success with Chris paul and Deron Williams always on the floor with him?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

WHen are you gonna stop pushing this bullshyt narrative

How do you explain his olympic success with Chris paul and Deron Williams always on the floor with him?

I explain it by the fact they play what like six games, with the best players in the world against nations like Brazil, Cuba, Mexico etc etc. If your best example of Bron being able to play off the ball is the Olympics... then I don't think basketball is the game for you. Bron has never played off the ball, because he can't and he won't.

 

[My neck and my back]

@My neck and my back - 'Other PGs have won with players out - no excuse for why Kyrie can't either'

@Gil Scott-Heroin - Did those PGs win with players equal to Matthew Dallaedova, Mike Millers, Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson

@My neck and my back's brain - *oh shyt since I never watched those games, I never knew how bad those lineups really were - I guess I fukked up.*

@My neck and my back - "nikka furious cuz his argument got picked apart"

your argument been ass since you tried to use one game as some evidence that kyrie a 1st option when during a stretch he couldn't lead his team to wins

bu bu but he scored 50 points...so did tony delk and mike james nikka

 

[Goat poster]

I explain it by the fact they play what like six games, with the best players in the world against nations like Brazil, Cuba, Mexico etc etc. If your best example of Bron being able to play off the ball is the Olympics... then I don't think basketball is the game for you. Bron has never played off the ball, because he can't and he won't.

This aint back in the day breh, the olympics ain't a cakewalk with Spain,France,Argentina ect. once the medal rounds start you can't just put any ol line up out there and expect to win breh so that excuse is bullshyt. Bron playing off ball worked.

The reason why Bron never plays off ball in the NBA is because he has never played with a PG like a CP3 or Deron.

Why would he play off the ball when he has ALWAYS been the best Point Guard/Forward on every team he's played on? (Kyrie is a 2 in a 1's body)

I don't disagree with the other stuff your saying ( I agree that a Kyrie/Bron combo is better than a Wall/Bron combo)

But sayin Bron CAN'T play off the ball is a lie.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i stuck to the same argument since i commented in this thread...fukk the if's and buts...that nikka ain't did shyt without bron but ONE game that your using as an crutch for your argument that's why i made the comparison to corey brewer...

No, clearly you can't read. That one game where he scored 55 points was in reference to his scoring ability. You know this, so stop twisting into something else.

iyour question is stupid when k love alone is better then most of the pg's on the list that you named...

Love is only one player and he was playing injured. He was going through back spasms and was playing probably the worst defense I've seen him play.

cp3 had hawes instead of blake, lowry played a stretch without derozan, steph played without klay, russy played damn near the whole season without kd, and etc....

Let's have a look at those lineups those PGs had and compare them to what Kyrie was playing with -

Paul
Reddikk/Crawford
Barnes
Hawes
Jordan

Lowry
Vasquez/Lou Williams
Ross
Johnson/Hansborough
Valanciunas

Curry
Iguodala/Barbosa
Barnes
Green
Bogut

Westbrook
Waiters/Morrow
Singler
Ibaka/McGary
Kanter/Adams

Those lineups are all considerably better than

Dallaedova
Miller
Love
Thompson - dude is 6"9 and was playing most minutes as C

And it's funny since Curry, Westbrook and Paul are the top 3 PGs in the league, how come you can't name any other PGs?

players get injured you fukkin pea brain...the difference is that great players step up and carry their team..

That's right they do, but the difference is you can't win games with two guards/wings who are lucky to be on a NBA roster, and two big man who are pretty much the worst defensive big men duo in the league... you dumb fukk. You need talent to win games. It's not one-on-one. Not only was that lineup close to be the worst defensive team during that stretch Bron was out, but they also had two play FOUR of the best teams in the league. So four out of those sevens games were against the best teams, and you want Kyrie to will his team to wins?

Yeah it makes sense you believe in this stupid shyt that great players carry teams to wins no matter what their personnel is and who they play against. It doesn't matter about all that, because you believe in basketball fairytales.

so until then...he ain't better than players who have carried their team

How does even make sense? Does every single player in the league that's not a leader have exact the same ability/talent? Because that's what you're basically saying. So let me get this straight -

Beal
Ariza
Nene
Gorat

and exactly the same as

CJ Miles
Earl Clark
Tristan Thompson
Varejao
If Wall can carry Beal, Ariza, Nene and Gortat to a successfull record, then he can carry CJ Miles, Earl Clark, Tristan Thompson and Andrew Bynum right?

Let me ask you, who would have a better record at the end of a season -

Kyrie
Beal
Ariza
Nene
Gortat

Wall
Miles
Clark
Thompson
Varejao

Answer carefully.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

your argument been ass since you tried to use one game as some evidence that kyrie a 1st option when during a stretch he couldn't lead his team to wins

No I used that one game to show you Kyrie doesn't need Bron to be an efficient scorer. He couldn't lead his team to wins cause he was playing with the worst defensive frontcourt in the league and two players who are D-League status.

bu bu but he scored 50 points...so did tony delk and mike james nikka

You're dumb as hell.

 

[My neck and my back]

No I used that one game to show you Kyrie doesn't need Bron to be an efficient scorer. He couldn't lead his team to wins cause he was playing with the worst defensive frontcourt in the league and two players who are D-League status.

You're dumb as hell.

No, clearly you can't read. That one game where he scored 55 points was in reference to his scoring ability. You know this, so stop twisting into something else.

Love is only one player and he was playing injured. He was going through back spasms and was playing probably the worst defense I've seen him play.

Let's have a look at those lineups those PGs had and compare them to what Kyrie was playing with -

Paul
Reddikk/Crawford
Barnes
Hawes
Jordan

Lowry
Vasquez/Lou Williams
Ross
Johnson/Hansborough
Valanciunas

Curry
Iguodala/Barbosa
Barnes
Green
Bogut

Westbrook
Waiters/Morrow
Singler
Ibaka/McGary
Kanter/Adams

Those lineups are all considerably better than

Dallaedova
Miller
Love
Thompson - dude is 6"9 and was playing most minutes as C

And it's funny since Curry, Westbrook and Paul are the top 3 PGs in the league, how come you can't name any other PGs?



That's right they do, but the difference is you can't win games with two guards/wings who are lucky to be on a NBA roster, and two big man who are pretty much the worst defensive big men duo in the league... you dumb fukk. You need talent to win games. It's not one-on-one. Not only was that lineup close to be the worst defensive team during that stretch Bron was out, but they also had two play FOUR of the best teams in the league. So four out of those sevens games were against the best teams, and you want Kyrie to will his team to wins?

Yeah it makes sense you believe in this stupid shyt that great players carry teams to wins no matter what their personnel is and who they play against. It doesn't matter about all that, because you believe in basketball fairytales.



How does even make sense? Does every single player in the league that's not a leader have exact the same ability/talent? Because that's what you're basically saying. So let me get this straight -

Beal
Ariza
Nene
Gorat

and exactly the same as

CJ Miles
Earl Clark
Tristan Thompson
Varejao
If Wall can carry Beal, Ariza, Nene and Gortat to a successfull record, then he can carry CJ Miles, Earl Clark, Tristan Thompson and Andrew Bynum right?

Let me ask you, who would have a better record at the end of a season -

Kyrie
Beal
Ariza
Nene
Gortat

Wall
Miles
Clark
Thompson
Varejao

Answer carefully.

breh your arguing to save face at this point...i could literally use your own posts through this thread to refute this shyt...fact is you don't have any fukkin evidence of your original point of kyrie being better than wall...you gotta use hypothetical's to make a point when i'm using straight facts...i'm gone

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

This aint back in the day breh, the olympics ain't a cakewalk with Spain,France,Argentina ect. once the medal rounds start you can't just put any ol line up out there and expect to win breh so that excuse is bullshyt. Bron playing off ball worked.

The medal rounds?

That's THREE games. How the hell can you come to the conclusion are player can or cannot do something off three games playing with ELITE talent all across the court?

2012 Olympics:

USA played Australia in the quarterfinals - Hardly the greatest competition, Bron was the main ball handler and had 11 assists - nearly more assists than every player combined. Clearly not a game that showcased his ability of playing off the ball.

USA played Argentina in the semi-final - Bron still was one of the main ball handlers - he and CP3 were the main ball handlers (they both averaged the most assists) with D-will playing a minor part. Most of the off-ball play was designed around Melo and Durant. Bron played at the top and directed the team, he had a few possessions posting up in the lost post, but most of his activity was either creating offense for himself or for the team or moving the ball around the perimeter.

USA played Spain in the final - Bron again was one of the main ball handlers and again he had the most assists -



Every single one of his baskets except for one alley-oop in transition, and one feed in the low post was him creating off the dribble.

He finished with 45 assists, second most at the Olympics - clearly he wasn't playing off the ball as much as you thought he was.

The reason why Bron never plays off ball in the NBA is because he has never played with a PG like a CP3 or Deron.

That's not it at all. It's because his best position is running a team - playing PG. He's never played off ball in the NBA, because he's never ever played off ball in his life. He's not the type of player to be running off screens or spotting up. And that's fine, he is who he is. I don't know why this is so hard to understand after he's been in the league for over a decade.

He needs the ball in his hands to operate. There's been no point in his career where he's been able to function without creating his own offense.

I don't disagree with the other stuff your saying ( I agree that a Kyrie/Bron combo is better than a Wall/Bron combo)

But sayin Bron CAN'T play off the ball is a lie.

It's not a lie. It's the truth.

 

[CP3_da_OG]

Besides scoring, what exactly does Kyrie do better than Wall?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

breh your arguing to save face at this point...i could literally use your own posts through this thread to refute this shyt..

That doesn't make any sense.

fact is you don't have any fukkin evidence of your original point of kyrie being better than wall...you gotta use hypothetical's to make a point when i'm using straight facts...i'm gone

You don't have any facts. My evidence is that Kyrie's scoring has a bigger impact on the game than whatever Wall has on the game. Yes he is a better passer, but he doesn't run an efficient and fluid offense - so what's the point in averaging double-digit assists if you can't run a proper offense? Most PGs can dominate the ball for as long as Wall does and average a similar rate of assists. That's not impressive to the point it trumps what Kyrie can do on the floor.

His first postseason was abysmal. He played like absolute garbage.

Until can either a) run a top offense b) become a reliable scoring threat c)do both of these things than he won't be better than Kyrie.

 

[Detroit Wave]