Who ranks higher , Timmy or Kobe ?

[murksiderock]

You're confusing two different things. Finals MVP and being the team's best player are not always the same. I've always said that Steph was the most important player for the Warriors in the 2015 Finals and that it was a toss-up between him and Durant in the 2017 and 2018 Finals. And I've said the main reason Steph didn't win Finals MVP in 17/18 was because the Cavs' defense focused on Steph rather than focusing on KD.

Shaq was the more essential player for the Lakers during the 2000-2002 stretch and that's undeniable. That's not just because he performed far better than Kobe in the 2000 Finals, 2001 Finals, and 2002 Finals and earned his unanimous Finals MVP every time, it's also because he finished far ahead of Kobe in MVP voting every year (accumulating 142 1st-place MVP votes in 3 years compared to just 1 total vote for Kobe), and because Shaq outperformed Kobe in the two closest series they had, the 2000 WCF and the 2002 WCF. It's indisputable breh and everyone agrees, sorry.





Nonsense. Are you going to claim Larry Bird wasn't the best player on the Celtics in 1981 or that Magic wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 1988 or that Steph wasn't the best player on the Warriors in 2015? Just stupid talk.







Not. Even. Close.


Shaq: 27.2 / 10.7 / 3.0 on 58% shooting and 2 blocks/game
Kobe: 25.2 / 5.5 / 5.5 on 47% shooting and 1.5 steals/game

Shaq got 15 votes for 1st-place MVP, 696 points total
Kobe got 1 vote for 1st-place MVP, 98 points total

Shaq got 125 1st-team All-NBA votes
Kobe got 72 1st-team All-NBA votes (far fewer than Jason Kidd's 115 and also losing some 1st-team votes to Gary Payton and Allen Iverson)

If you care about advanced stats, Shaq led in EVERY one. Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, Offensive BPM, Defensive BMP, Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, and Value Over Replacement - literally every single one has Shaq ahead on both sides.


So in the regular season it was indisputable. How about the playoffs?

Shaq: 28.5 / 12.6 / 2.8 on 53% shooting and 2.5 blocks/game
Kobe: 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 43% shooting and 1.4 steals/game

Once again, Shaq led on every single advanced stat on both sides of the court, and by even bigger margins than the regular season


Finals?

Shaq: 36.3 / 12.3 / 3.8 on 60% shooting and 2.8 blocks/game
Kobe: 26.8 / 5.8 / 5.3 on 51% shooting and 1.5 steals/game


Western Conference Finals, the Lakers' only competitive series that year?

Shaq: 30.3 / 13.6 / 1.6 on 53% and 2.4 blocks/game
Kobe 27.1 / 6.3 / 3.9 on 42% and 1.4 steals/game



Shaq was better in the regular season, better in the postseason, better in the biggest playoff series and better in the FInals. Both regular season and playoffs he had better stats, better advanced stats, and better recognition from the voters.

Time to give this one up breh. Kobe has always had the fan love, that's how he got to the 1998, 2014, 2015, and 2016 All-Star games. He's never lacked for that fan support. But objectively he's no Shaq and he's no Duncan.

More than Stans of any other player ever, Kobe Stans have the most difficult time separating popularity from game and impact on winning basketball. It's ridiculous...

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Bruh Duncan was not the best player on the '14 Spurs. Right around 2011-12, and maybe sooner but CERTAINLY that season at the latest, the Spurs offense was almost solely thru Parker. He became their closer on a full time basis, which is strictly contrasted from the near decade-and-a-half prior when Duncan was the fulcrum of the Spur O AND their closer...

The game is played on two side. If TP ranks 100 on offense and Duncan was 70.....then Duncan was 100 on defense and TP was 20.

To me at least the gap between Duncan and TP on the defensive end was FAR larger than the gap between TP and Duncan on the offensive end. And in the three most competitive series in 2014-15 (1st-round Mavs going to 7, WCF Thunder going to 6, and 1st-round Clippers going to 7), Duncan was the most important player overall and even outscored TP in 2 out of 3 (Thunder and Clippers) and with the Mavs it was debateable at worst.

Those Comeback Spurs of 2011-14 was Parker as best player on the team, all the impact metrics support that as well as the MVP and All-NBA voting of those years. More importantly, watching the Spurs those 3 years underscored this, that was Peak Parker; their dead period of Finals appearances from 2007 to 2013 was the transition phase of the team becoming less Duncan centric and Parker maturing into a larger role of responsibility. Obviously, it goes without saying that there were other factors and roster revamping, but one if the strong factors in that Finals drought was Duncan's decline and Parker's ascension into a #1 option...

2009-2012 Duncan had a lot of injury issues, that's when he first started wearing the knee brace full time and he also had several ankle injuries that degraded him. You could visibly see the impact of that and that's when everyone started saying, "Duncan is playing on one leg".

2013 was different though. There was clearly a more consistent, healthy Duncan, in part because Pop started using "load management" more effectively. Duncan put up his best numbers since 2010, earned 1st-team All-NBA and 2nd-team All-Defensive. Parker was just 2nd-team All-NBA that year and of course wasn't a good defender, though he did finish very slightly ahead of Duncan in MVP votes (they were 6th/7th that year). Advanced stats were mixed - Duncan had higher VORP and higher BPM, while Parker had higher Win Shares. Most importantly, when shyt hit the fan in 2013 Finals, Duncan was the more critical player in the series as a whole and especially in games 6/7.

2014 is a lot more debateable, like you say they were definitely Duncan's team but Parker was the better player on offense for much of the year. I just htink that Duncan was the one who stepped up and proved to be the more critical player in the biggest series (Mavs and Thunder). But I'm fine with room to disagree on that won.

We both agree (as all mentally balanced people do) that Duncan was indisputably the best player on the Spurs at all times in the decade from 1998 to 2007 when they won their 4 titles. Only the 5th title is in disagreement as that was the 1 out of the 5 that was more a team effort.

Bruh, there was no great debate in the early 00s about who the best player on the Lakers was. I don't even know where this comes from other than this persistent desire to heighten Kobe to a degree he wasn't yet at...

He was developing quickly by the year but Shaq and Duncan were the two guys in contention for best player in the world for a 5-year stretch post-Jordan until '03.

Yeah, they're just doing their stan talk, no one is gonna take that "Kobe was better in 2002!" shyt seriously except for the ones that are literally disappointed they never got to bear his child.

I wouldn't bet on this. Kobe is more people's favorite player of the two but better is more of a draw in my experience...

This is one of the biggest Pro-Kobe boards online, probably the biggest one that isn't a specific Laker site, and most people here are favoring Duncan...

I don't know why the weirdos think The Coli is some crazy aberration from the rest of the internet and that aberration is somehow anti-Kobe. What forum would they prefer to believe?

 

[BigTyme Records]

Duncan pretty easily

 

[Dave24]

KOBE IS THE ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY TO WIN BACK TO BACK RINGS WITOUT ANOTHER TOP 75 PLAYER

YA’LL CONTINUING TO DISRESPECT THE GOAT ON THE REGULAR

DO BETTER

@Sccit you have Kobe over Jordan?

 

[Sccit]

@Sccit you have Kobe over Jordan?

YES

 

[Dave24]

YES

What are your reasons for it?

 

[Sccit]

What are your reasons for it?

MJ PLAYED HIS ENTIRE PRIME ON CONTENDING TEAMS THAT CATERED TO HIS OFFENSIVE PROWESS, WHILE HAVING A PLAYER LIKE SCOTTIE GUARD THE BEST OPPOSING PLAYER ON THE PERIMETER, WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO CONSERVE HIS ENERGY MUCH MORE..

KOBE SPENT HALF HIS PRIME ON SCRUB TEAMS THEN CARRIED A FAR LESSER TEAM THAN MJ’S BULLS TO BACK-TO-BACK RINGS

I THINK IF U SWAP MJ WIT KOBE, HE WINS MORE THAN 6 AND HAS CAREER NUMBERS IN LINE WIT THAT 05-06 SEASON

KOBE WAS A BETTER SHOOTER, HAD A WIDER ARRAY OF MOVES + COUNTERS, CLEANER HANDLES, MORE ADVANCED FOOTWORK AND JUST AN OVERALL BETTER SCORER/MORE SKILLED PLAYER

MJ BEING THE CONSENSUS GOAT IS A MATTER OF CIRCUMSTANCE .. THE STARS ALIGNED

NOT TO SAY HES NOT A GOAT LEVEL PLAYER, BUT THERES NO REAL GAP BETWEEN HIM AND THE MOUNT RUSHMORE OF GOATS.

 

[DrexlersFade]

made it out the west

he played who was in front of him

Who the Lakers played the year before make it make sense bruh.

 

[Ozymandeas]

Because Kobe is popular and was Jordan-lite in how he played the game. His actual game and the results on the floor weren't Jordan-like though, so he shouldn't be compared to Top 5 guys. He's always been more popular than Duncan and most of yall can't separate popularity from actual basketball...

Duncan and Kobe are close enough as players but wasn't nobody putting Kobe in any All-Time conversation before the resurgence in the second half of his career. We were watching, we remember. People were talking about Duncan in historic terms almost immediately, but he didn't go on a prop date with a pop star, he didn't try appealing to hip hop heads, he didn't try to mimic Hakeem, he didn't have a flashy game or wear earrings or get visible tattoos or play for America's Team or have a signature sneaker or play on the wings...

You dudes can't separate what made Kobe popular...

Its an internet debate and its fueled by Kobe hate.

If the admiration and love for Tim Duncan was sincere and honest, you would see people constantly comparing Duncan to Magic, to Bird, to Jordan, to LeBron, to Kareem, to whoever.....he has 5 rings, 2 mvps, 3 finals mvps. He has the resume to be seriously compared to these guys. But he's never brought up as a GOAT. I literally only read this man's name when Kobe's name is in the same sentence.

That's why I know he's just a prop. Yall lose interest in him the moment Kobe falls out of the conversation.

As far as the bolded, people were always calling Kobe the heir to Jordan. Why lie about something that's easily disproven? The knock on Kobe was he played with Shaq. Shaq has done more disservice to Kobe than any teammate has for anyone in history. Kobe would have been better off never playing with that nikka, and just winning the two rings in 2009 and 2010. Duncan thankfully, never had the misfortune of having a top ten ALL TIME player on his team for 8 years. If Duncan had to play with Jordan, or Magic or Bird, he would have gotten "carried" too but, you're too far gone in your Kobe hatred to think about that.

 

[Cladyclad]

West was strong but the Lakers were dead tired from a 3 peat. Only won 50 games that season. What happened the next year revamped lakers beat them again. TD did his thing in 03 but people wanna excuse 01 and 02 for TD because his “team was trash” or injuries well how is fatigue not an excuse for the Lakers after 3 straight title runs through a strong west.


In 2004 second round the Spurs were up 2-0 and lost 4 straight with TD playing like trash the whole time. In the 4 losses he shot under 40% three times. It’s not like Kobe who’s t shooting from the perimeter TD was shooting most of his shots close to the basket and clanking.

TD gets passes for so much shyt. Kobe loses a 3-1 lead with a trash squad as a #7 seed Vs a #2 and it’s held against him. TD was out here losing 2-0 leads to the Lakers, losing with HCA several times in his career and lose to a 8 seed in the first round and people gloss over it.

I can’t talk about kobe breh. This might be my last time. People still legit hate Kobe. kobe gets no benefit of doubt or context. If Kobe stayed with Charlott his stats would be astronomica. But that never will be considered. And as much as I love Bron. Dude had to leave 60 win teams and click up with HOfers for 11 out of the last 12 years. Kobe legit had a championship team built from scratch in less than 3 years. shyt like that has to matter. All kobe needed was one fringe all star and u were a contender. The lakers didn’t need gasol. Kobe led this team to the best record in the west with just a developing Bynum. if Kobe don’t step up in the finals against INDY when shaq fouled out is it even guaranteed the lakers win that series?

ok I get it. Kobe won 3 rings with shaq. when shaq dipped people said he will never win without him. Not only did he win he went to 3 straight finals 4 years later. The shyts unreal.


kobe hate is never ending.

the last 2 finals win Tim wasnt even the mvp. Danny green even had a chance lol could u imagine if Sasha V was outplaying Kobe in multiple finals games the narrative lol


im done

 

[Ozymandeas]

I can’t talk about kobe breh. This might be my last time. People still legit hate Kobe. kobe gets no benefit of doubt or context. If Kobe stayed with Charlott his stats would be astronomica. But that never will be considered. And as much as I love Bron. Dude had to leave 60 win teams and click up with HOfers for 11 out of the last 12 years. Kobe legit had a championship team built from scratch in less than 3 years. shyt like that has to matter. All kobe needed was one fringe all star and u were a contender. The lakers didn’t need gasol. Kobe led this team to the best record in the west with just a developing Bynum. if Kobe don’t step up in the finals against INDY when shaq fouled out is it even guaranteed the lakers win that series?

ok I get it. Kobe won 3 rings with shaq. when shaq dipped people said he will never win without him. Not only did he win he went to 3 straight finals 4 years later. The shyts unreal.


kobe hate is never ending.

the last 2 finals win Tim wasnt even the mvp. Danny green even had a chance lol could u imagine if Sasha V was outplaying Kobe in multiple finals games the narrative lol


im done

Yup. Kobe would’ve been better off staying in Charlotte averaging 28ppg 5 assists 5 rebounds for a career and winning two rings in 2009 and 2010. He’d be looked at like a guard version of Hakeem and wouldn’t have the constant disrespect he has now. Kobe gained nothing playing with Shaq. He got the extra rings of course but, Kobe haters use that against him as if he didn’t do a lot of heavy lifting on those runs. Then they wonder why young players today are so weird about their careers Because nobody wants to deal with those narratives.


And yea, Danny Green was looking like a bonafide stud that series. Like Steph Curry before Steph Curry. I thought the young boy had next. I was sorely mistaken Kobe fans would’ve never heard the end of it if Shannon Brown hit 9 threes a game in the Finals

 

[murksiderock]

MJ PLAYED HIS ENTIRE PRIME ON CONTENDING TEAMS THAT CATERED TO HIS OFFENSIVE PROWESS, WHILE HAVING A PLAYER LIKE SCOTTIE GUARD THE BEST OPPOSING PLAYER ON THE PERIMETER, WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO CONSERVE HIS ENERGY MUCH MORE..

KOBE SPENT HALF HIS PRIME ON SCRUB TEAMS THEN CARRIED A FAR LESSER TEAM THAN MJ’S BULLS TO BACK-TO-BACK RINGS

I THINK IF U SWAP MJ WIT KOBE, HE WINS MORE THAN 6 AND HAS CAREER NUMBERS IN LINE WIT THAT 05-06 SEASON

KOBE WAS A BETTER SHOOTER, HAD A WIDER ARRAY OF MOVES + COUNTERS, CLEANER HANDLES, MORE ADVANCED FOOTWORK AND JUST AN OVERALL BETTER SCORER/MORE SKILLED PLAYER

MJ BEING THE CONSENSUS GOAT IS A MATTER OF CIRCUMSTANCE .. THE STARS ALIGNED

NOT TO SAY HES NOT A GOAT LEVEL PLAYER, BUT THERES NO REAL GAP BETWEEN HIM AND THE MOUNT RUSHMORE OF GOATS.

We definitely can agree that there's no major gap from Mike to most of the other GOATs. Two years ago Bob Costas gave an interview on Dan Patrick; Costas used to call NBA games in the 80s and early 90s (I didn't know that) and he said while he has Mike over Bird and Magic, there really wasn't that big of a gap when these guys were all playing...

And I believe him because everything I've learned of my own volition hasn't proven to me that Mike deserves the credibility of being considered miles ahead of his historical peers...

The era in which Mike won 6 rings cannot be replicated and much like Russell winning 11 in that era, I doubt we'll ever see a guy win 6 as the main guy ever again. Mike's 90s was a weaker era than the 80s before it and each era since. You could plug several All-Timers into his spot on the 90s Bulls and they all win 6 (or more). That same Bulls team as constructed isn't winning 6 in the 60s, 80s, 00s, or 10s (and probably not the 20s either but the 20s just started), and while he'd still have a GOAT case because he is Michael Jordan, the narrative on his career would be different and wouldn't have this stupid ass "6 for 6" shyt that doesn't even fukking matter....

It's wild how "6" became the arbitrator go-to standard of championships in a way "11" never did. Unbelievable . It's been 24 years since a superstar player won 6 titles. It's not happening again...

 

[murksiderock]

Its an internet debate and its fueled by Kobe hate.

If the admiration and love for Tim Duncan was sincere and honest, you would see people constantly comparing Duncan to Magic, to Bird, to Jordan, to LeBron, to Kareem, to whoever.....he has 5 rings, 2 mvps, 3 finals mvps. He has the resume to be seriously compared to these guys. But he's never brought up as a GOAT. I literally only read this man's name when Kobe's name is in the same sentence.

That's why I know he's just a prop. Yall lose interest in him the moment Kobe falls out of the conversation.

As far as the bolded, people were always calling Kobe the heir to Jordan. Why lie about something that's easily disproven? The knock on Kobe was he played with Shaq. Shaq has done more disservice to Kobe than any teammate has for anyone in history. Kobe would have been better off never playing with that nikka, and just winning the two rings in 2009 and 2010. Duncan thankfully, never had the misfortune of having a top ten ALL TIME player on his team for 8 years. If Duncan had to play with Jordan, or Magic or Bird, he would have gotten "carried" too but, you're too far gone in your Kobe hatred to think about that.

I can’t talk about kobe breh. This might be my last time. People still legit hate Kobe. kobe gets no benefit of doubt or context. If Kobe stayed with Charlott his stats would be astronomica. But that never will be considered. And as much as I love Bron. Dude had to leave 60 win teams and click up with HOfers for 11 out of the last 12 years. Kobe legit had a championship team built from scratch in less than 3 years. shyt like that has to matter. All kobe needed was one fringe all star and u were a contender. The lakers didn’t need gasol. Kobe led this team to the best record in the west with just a developing Bynum. if Kobe don’t step up in the finals against INDY when shaq fouled out is it even guaranteed the lakers win that series?

ok I get it. Kobe won 3 rings with shaq. when shaq dipped people said he will never win without him. Not only did he win he went to 3 straight finals 4 years later. The shyts unreal.


kobe hate is never ending.

the last 2 finals win Tim wasnt even the mvp. Danny green even had a chance lol could u imagine if Sasha V was outplaying Kobe in multiple finals games the narrative lol


im done

I really wish yall wouldn't classify everything as "Kobe hate"...

I've never said Kobe was "carried", I've only said it isn't disputable who the best player on those teams was...

And as far as Duncan in this conversation, I think he and Kobe compare well to each other, but I have Duncan ahead for reasons I previously gave. I don't think Duncan is a Rushmore player either, so if you're contention is that I'm favoring Duncan to a different tier or stature than Kobe, that ain't it. They are at the same tier for me, Duncan's just higher in the hierarchy...

I'm not tripping on people who favor Kobe but the logic yall use to support him is weak. "Duncan lost to an 8-seed". "Kobe beat him more in the playoffs". "Kobe had terrible teams". On and on and on...

The justifications you all use to support Kobe over Duncan are whimsical, routinely lack context, and are emotional. It's not basketball with yall, it's fanfare...

Kobe was considered the heir to Jordan because of his frame, parts of his game, and the fact he ficking mimicked everything the man did down to how he chewed fukking gum. For the most part though, it's long been understood that he wasn't quite the player Jordan was, and I think what gets Kobe heads upset is because yall view Mike as the GOAT, you have this desire for everyone to put Kobe right with him...

At every mile marker of their careers, besides Y14 and Y15 (Wizards Mike), Mike was a better player than Kobe, and in most years significantly so. Y1 ('85 Mike) vs Y1 ('97 Kobe), Y2 vs Y2, and so on. There is no honest, objective comparison of Mike and Kobe as equals...

There is more of a case for Kobe and Duncan...

 

[murksiderock]

If timestamp didn't catch its at 11:15, Costas on Mike vs Magic and Bird historically...

 

[Cladyclad]

I really wish yall wouldn't classify everything as "Kobe hate"...

I've never said Kobe was "carried", I've only said it isn't disputable who the best player on those teams was...

And as far as Duncan in this conversation, I think he and Kobe compare well to each other, but I have Duncan ahead for reasons I previously gave. I don't think Duncan is a Rushmore player either, so if you're contention is that I'm favoring Duncan to a different tier or stature than Kobe, that ain't it. They are at the same tier for me, Duncan's just higher in the hierarchy...

I'm not tripping on people who favor Kobe but the logic yall use to support him is weak. "Duncan lost to an 8-seed". "Kobe beat him more in the playoffs". "Kobe had terrible teams". On and on and on...

The justifications you all use to support Kobe over Duncan are whimsical, routinely lack context, and are emotional. It's not basketball with yall, it's fanfare...

Kobe was considered the heir to Jordan because of his frame, parts of his game, and the fact he ficking mimicked everything the man did down to how he chewed fukking gum. For the most part though, it's long been understood that he wasn't quite the player Jordan was, and I think what gets Kobe heads upset is because yall view Mike as the GOAT, you have this desire for everyone to put Kobe right with him...

At every mile marker of their careers, besides Y14 and Y15 (Wizards Mike), Mike was a better player than Kobe, and in most years significantly so. Y1 ('85 Mike) vs Y1 ('97 Kobe), Y2 vs Y2, and so on. There is no honest, objective comparison of Mike and Kobe as equals...

There is more of a case for Kobe and Duncan...

MJ has nothing to do with this convo. All I know is Duncan played with HOFers his entire career and with a HOF coach his entire career.

question who has been the better player over the last 6 years Lebron or KD?