Who said Lebron doesnt need more help

[IllmaticDelta]

In failed finals, you are correct

in flat out dominance and betterness

 

[O.T.I.S.]

in flat out dominance and betterness

Frontrunning stat whores with the useless stats again


He lost 4 finals while jumping on superteams and doesn't get respect from his peers...

Only stats that matter


Which team do you root for again... Cavs or Heat

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Frontrunning stat whores with the useless stats again


He lost 4 finals while jumping on superteams and doesn't get respect from his peers...

Only stats that matter


Which team do you root for again... Cavs or Heat

cry me a river little kid




Why Kobe Bryant is not a top-10 all-time player

Pelton: Kobe not a top-10 player of all time

Kevin Pelton analyzes Kobe Bryant's all-time #NBARank. Become an Insider today to read the full story

With Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant announcing his retirement from basketball at the end of the 2015-16 season, attention now turns to Bryant's legacy.

Just five months remain in Kobe's career, so this seems like a good time to ask about where he ranks among the all-time greats. In particular, is he one of the 10 best to play the game?

A close reading of the facts suggests the answer is no. As remarkable as his career has been, Bryant's résumé can't quite compare to that of the league's inner-circle Hall of Famers.

Win shares: Kobe ranks No. 15

Win shares, found at Basketball Reference, are our most complete historic NBA metric. They give us a way to compare players across NBA eras.

Although full box-score stats did not become available until 1977-78, when the league started tracking player turnovers, Basketball Reference estimates turnovers and other stats that were not recorded at the time (including steals and blocks before 1973-74) to come up with approximations for player value throughout league history.

Bryant is currently 15th among NBA players in career win shares (172.5), with an outside chance of surpassing Reggie Miller (174.4) by the end of the season, if he improves his level of play. Because he has started so poorly, Bryant has actually lost 0.6 win shares from his career total so far this season.

Expected championships added: Kobe ranks No. 20

As Miller's high ranking suggests, the problem with using win shares as a historic measuring stick is they tend to reward longevity over quality of play. To better reflect the impact players had on their teams, I've developed a model that relates their win shares each season to a typical team's chances of winning a championship.

This model shows value is exponential rather than linear. For instance, a season with 15 win shares (such as Bryant's 2005-06 campaign) is nearly three times as valuable as one with 10 win shares (such as his 2010-11).

A preliminary version of this model shows Bryant 20th all time in expected championships added (ECA), just behind Larry Bird and ahead of the late Moses Malone.

Why Kobe doesn't rate as well by advanced stats

Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.

That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.

ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.

These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.

Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.

The verdict

Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.

He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.

It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.

Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.

In terms of the share of MVP votes accumulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.

Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.

But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight.

Offical Espn Insider Thread

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lebron impact dwarfs kobes



VORP (value over replacement)



PER (player eff rating)




Kobe 12 by sports illustrated------Lebron 4 (before his 3rd title)

SI's 50 greatest players in NBA history

Kobe 12 by espn-------Lebron 3 (after his 3rd title)

All-Time #NBArank: Where does Kobe belong?

Kobe 12 by fox sports-----lebron # 2 (after his 3rd title)

Ranking the 25 greatest players in NBA history

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LeBron James passes Michael Jordan as most valuable player in NBA history

Also arguably the most clutch player in NBA history. And yes, that list includes Michael Jordan.

James is now 4-2 all-time in Game 7s, including 2-0 in those must-win games during the NBA Finals. His game score from Sunday night — a metric created by John Hollinger to give a rough measure of a player’s productivity for a single game – was 23.1, the fifth-highest for a Game 7. He also has the third-highest game score for a Game 7 (32.5 in 2013). His performances in Games 5 and 6 — both elimination games for Cleveland — earned him game scores of 39.2 and 42.5, respectively, two of the top three performances ever recorded in the NBA Finals.

There have now been 13 games in which a player has recorded at least 20 points, 10 assists and 10 rebounds — James has five. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are the only two players to have more than one. Charles Barkley, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd and James Worthy have the others. Jordan has none.

James has also moved past Jordan in postseason value over replacement, a box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level player. In other words, James, despite not winning as many championships as Jordan, is the most valuable playoff player of all time. It’s also worth noting that Jordan’s teammate, Scottie Pippen, appears on this all-time great list at No. 5. You have to scan to No. 12, Dwyane Wade, to find the best overall playoff performance by one of James’s teammates.

When you factor in regular season performance, James can now be considered the most valuable NBA player of all time.

LeBron James passes Michael Jordan as most valuable player in NBA history

 

[O.T.I.S.]

I'm a frontrunning casual fan, so Lebron is my favorite team... I have no loyalty for shyt and usually act like a woman iin real life

Here are my useless stats to prove I actually don't watch games...

I figured

Spoiler: Btw

Spoiler

now stop quoting me about this hoe ass nikkas so I can watch my show and talk about shyt thats actually interesting to me

Spoiler

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I figured

you read it alright which is why you're

now stop quoting me about this hoe ass nikkas so I can watch my show and talk about shyt thats actually interesting to me

 

[O.T.I.S.]

you read it alright which is why you're

nikka did all that random stat searching, looking for articles from random nobodies for nothing

I didn't read that garbage..

Stay mad

Spoiler

 

[ManBearPig]

san antonio is a super team breh.

art barr

No they not.

 

[ManBearPig]

In failed finals, you are correct

3 FMVP is more than 2

Horry got both faded if u gonna go there

 

[O.T.I.S.]

3 FMVP is more than 2

Horry got both faded if u gonna go there

Who gives a fukk


You nikkas with these clown ass individual stats... nikka wouldn't have shyt without jumping to a Superteam... Then to another one... With a bunch of nikkas in they prime.

Yall nikkas bring this shyt up about KD when this fool did it twice

Then yall bring up individual accomplishments when this cat still lost FOUR fukking times.. Almost 5 if it wasn't for injuries and snitching

And I guess Horry was carrying the squads that he was on right...


Derek Fisher got Lebron faded too then

 

[ManBearPig]

Who gives a fukk


You nikkas with these clown ass individual stats... nikka wouldn't have shyt without jumping to a Superteam... Then to another one... With a bunch of nikkas in they prime.

Yall nikkas bring this shyt up about KD when this fool did it twice

Then yall bring up individual accomplishments when this cat still lost FOUR fukking times.. Almost 5 if it wasn't for injuries and snitching

And I guess Horry was carrying the squads that he was on right...


Derek Fisher got Lebron faded too then

LBJ never had Shaq. LBJ wouldn't gone anywhere too if he had a 24 year old shaq on his team as a rookie either

 

[ManBearPig]

Frontrunning stat whores with the useless stats again


He lost 4 finals while jumping on superteams and doesn't get respect from his peers...

Only stats that matter


Which team do you root for again... Cavs or Heat

6 straight Finals while the Cavs were a lottery team before LBJ came back but he a statpadder right?

he statpadded his way to 3 FMVPs which is more than Kobe

there is a thin line between being a hater and a fukking retard

 

[GoddamnyamanProf]

6 straight Finals while the Cavs were a lottery team before LBJ came back but he a statpadder right?

he statpadded his way to 3 FMVPs which is more than Kobe

there is a thin line between being a hater and a fukking retard

He's proven himself to be both. Also irrelevant.

 

[O.T.I.S.]

He's proven himself to be both. Also irrelevant.

Still slurping that lebron dikk so early in the morning I see...

 

[O.T.I.S.]

6 straight Finals while the Cavs were a lottery team before LBJ came back but he a statpadder right?

he statpadded his way to 3 FMVPs which is more than Kobe

there is a thin line between being a hater and a fukking retard

Cavs also were missing 2 allstars with a hurt Kyrie but keep forgetting that part of the story

6 straight in a weakass conference with 4 losses huh...

And yes... Youre right, he did statpad his way into a useless award.. He also cramped up, got shytted on by Jason Terry, etc., on his way to 4 finals losses

You forget that stat though, right

 

[O.T.I.S.]

LBJ never had Shaq. LBJ wouldn't gone anywhere too if he had a 24 year old shaq on his team as a rookie either

Cause he had Bosh and Wade

Now he has Kyrie and Love


Kobe had Shaq and Gasol SEPERATELY... How many rings did they have without Kobe again? Wade already had his, Bosh don't fukk with that nikka anymore. Kyrie doesn't really fukk with him now, Love definitely doesn't fukk with him