Why didn't Taker succeed as the top guy?

[BurnSlow]

Ay Yo, from a fan's stand point, Taker is one of the gawds, no doubt. As a kid I always loved the dude. As an adult, I still love the dude, great entertainer and definitely worth the price of admission. Him and Shawn at Mania was one of my top 3 favorite joints of all-time. I remember his HIAC matches and his programs during the late 90s being big deals for me. Don't need no one else to tell me that shyt.

I could give the same level of praise to probably only 10 other cats. Can't speak to how much he drew, how high he rated or whatever, but he's definitely up there like that for me.

I think most agree he was never the top guy for a whole bunch of reasons that everyone contributed already. But he had a unique career and played his role as well as anybody you could think of. His peers all give him the highest

 

[Wacky D]

Can't speak to how much he drew, how high he rated or whatever, but he's definitely up there like that for me.

of course you cant.
taker couldnt draw sticks.

this thread reads more like a pity party than anything.

yall on some "oh well, lets rank him anyway" on some sentimental stuff. thats what personal favorite lists are for.

 

[Malcolm Joseph]

Ay Yo, from a fan's stand point, Taker is one of the gawds, no doubt. As a kid I always loved the dude. As an adult, I still love the dude, great entertainer and definitely worth the price of admission. Him and Shawn at Mania was one of my top 3 favorite joints of all-time. I remember his HIAC matches and his programs during the late 90s being big deals for me. Don't need no one else to tell me that shyt.

I could give the same level of praise to probably only 10 other cats. Can't speak to how much he drew, how high he rated or whatever, but he's definitely up there like that for me.

I think most agree he was never the top guy for a whole bunch of reasons that everyone contributed already. But he had a unique career and played his role as well as anybody you could think of. His peers all give him the highest

shyt was definitely lit.

This one of the things that I think gets lost. He gets love from wrestling personalities young and old, WWE and non-WWE.

Kane still owes him the first name of his son lol.

 

[BurnSlow]

of course not.
taker couldnt draw sticks.

this thread reads more like a pity party than anything.

yall on some "oh well, lets rank him anyway" on some sentimental stuff.

Chill. No one questioning ya wrestling knowledge.

Be content reading the numbers on how well something sold, what rating a show received or defining what lens other people should use when deciding what's good or not or

Imma keep watching and liking the same shyt everyone else likes and not thinking for myself. My mama shoulda raised me better.

 

[mrken12]

Chill. No one questioning ya wrestling knowledge.

I am. It's .

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

if youre talking about props from contemporaries, then sure.

scarface is not no universal top 10 rapper.

undertaker has no business anywhere near a top 10. you have to be completely stuck on the wwf to even bring his name into the discussion.

And how do props from contemporaries not count?

I would argue THEY matter the most.

They are the reasons people still talk about Rakim, because every great MC says Rakim is the guy who influenced them the most.

It's the idiot stans who's opinions don't matter.

And NO I'm not stuck on WWE, but the Undertaker is pretty much standard in top 10 lists, with the exception of The Coli

Ranking the 25 Greatest Wrestlers of All Time

Top 25 Greatest Wrestlers of All Time

Top 10 Greatest Wrestlers of All Time - Wonderslist

Pretty much EVERY list I've googled of the top 10 wrestlers of all-time, the Undertaker is on it, so I know I aint the only one call him that. You're in the minority pal

I didn't read this whole thread, but I see where @Wacky D is coming from. Taker is a legend to me, but he's an extremely successful B+ player (nothing wrong with that), never was on Austin's, Rock's, or even Foley's and HHH's level as a main eventer. The WWE machine hypes him up because he's been "loyal" for so long (according to Nash and Hall, he was in talks with WCW during the MNW). He's respected and rocked with you regardless of your status as a wrestler (BSK being nothing but jobbers). The Busta Rhymes analogy is on-point. Cartoony, gimmicky, never was a GOAT and shouldn't be in anyone's top 10, but a legend nonetheless.

The Busta Rhymes analogy is ABSURD.

Busta Rhymes had a few hit records and a few hit albums between the mid '90s and the mid '00s.

The Undertaker has been a SUPERSTAR for 25 years.

That's why I compared him to Scarface.

Face made his first (non Geto Boys) classic record in '91 with Mr. Scarface is Back and made a great record last year.

That's longevity. Aint nobody talking bout Busta Rhymes in 2016

 

[Wacky D]

Chill. No one questioning ya wrestling knowledge.

Be content reading the numbers on how well something sold, what rating a show received or defining what lens other people should use when deciding what's good or not or

Imma keep watching and liking the same shyt everyone else likes and not thinking for myself. My mama shoulda raised me better.

again, this isnt about LIKES. thread isnt asking where you rate taker on your favorites list. its about where he ranks on an all-time list.

lol. no im not a number-cruncher.

And how do props from contemporaries not count?

I would argue THEY matter the most.

They are the reasons people still talk about Rakim, because every great MC says Rakim is the guy who influenced them the most.

It's the idiot stans who's opinions don't matter.

And NO I'm not stuck on WWE, but the Undertaker is pretty much standard in top 10 lists, with the exception of The Coli
Pretty much EVERY list I've googled of the top 10 wrestlers of all-time, the Undertaker is on it,



The Busta Rhymes analogy is ABSURD.
Busta Rhymes had a few hit records and a few hit albums between the mid '90s and the mid '00s.
The Undertaker has been a SUPERSTAR for 25 years.
That's why I compared him to Scarface.
Face made his first (non Geto Boys) classic record in '91 with Mr. Scarface is Back and made a great record last year.
That's longevity. Aint nobody talking bout Busta Rhymes in 2016

great. you googled a bunch of predictable wwf kayfabe-influenced lists. one of them tried to slide in names like bob backlund and a randomly placed lou thesz in hopes of looking credible. youre not helping your cause at all with this.

john cena in the top 20. i stopped reading when i saw edge in the top 15. this is the exact type chit im talkin bout.

the thing with getting respect by your peers is that, alot of the time, that respect stems from other chit. you know darn well they respect taker more for backstage stuff than his actual in-ring performances.


lol @ busta rhymes just having a few hits. he been around since '90 and stayed relevant longer than face.

aint nobody checking for scarface in 2016, except his core die-hard fanbase.

anyway, youre doing scarface an injustice by comparing him to taker. but im not a fan of dude so its whatever. i'll let you cook on that one.

 

[BurnSlow]

again, this isnt about LIKES. thread isnt asking where you rate taker on your favorites list. its about where he ranks on an all-time list.

lol. no im not a number-cruncher.

I thought the thread was asking why the gawd didn't succeed as a top guy

But that's neither nor there. Convo broke several ways as good convos should.

I'm curious as to where you rank Taker, what's guys does he rank with in your opinion?

 

[TheAlbionist]

Thread tryna get raised as evidence in Wrestler's Court and half of you are gonna be putting your tights on in the hallway.

Taker stands ALONE. He's the only guy that didn't need to be a "top guy" to be a main event option for the entirety of his career. Taker could be booked to compete and beat any champion the company has had for the last quarter century. fukk outta here if anyone else has touched that.

Has he always been in the hunt for a strap? Doesn't matter, his WM Streak was bigger than any title anyone ever created, won or held.

Is he delivering top drawer promos week in week out to get himself over? Doesn't matter, he's been over since 1990. People still watch his entrances in reverent silence even though they've been largely the same for 25 years.

Has he played a hand in building every "top guy's" buzz for the last 25 years? Yes, yes he has.

Has he produced timeless TV and PPV spots that'll live forever? Yes, yes he has.

Is anyone as widely respected among wrestlers and promoters over their whole career? No. Nobody in the industry doubts Taker's position. You only have to listen to HBK, Rocky or Austin tell it. The only guy that no matter how many tell-alls, podcasts and autobiographies you churn through you will never hear insulted. All the other "greats" have stepped on toes, pissed people off and/or sold out at various times... Taker has been a reliable leader of the locker room for decades. That doesn't happen by accident. He is the top guy.

Taker the best, it ain't a real debate. (c) Jadakiss

 

[Heelish]

Thread tryna get raised as evidence in Wrestler's Court and half of you are gonna be putting your tights on in the hallway.

Carny shyt, literally the only lame thing Taker does besides not looking out for BSK

He's the only guy that didn't need to be a "top guy" to be a main event option for the entirety of his career.

True, he doesn't care about status.

Doesn't matter, his WM Streak was bigger than any title anyone ever created, won or held.

False. Not until he fought HBK (some say Orton but I didn't watch back then). Like I said before, him being undefeated at WM was a "cool fact" back in the day. It was NOT a big deal nor an attraction when he beat Big Show and A-Train at WM19

Is he delivering top drawer promos week in week out to get himself over? Doesn't matter, he's been over since 1990. People still watch his entrances in reverent silence even though they've been largely the same for 25 years.

Agreed with all points. And his promo game wasn't bad when he was the American Bad Ass. His matches were great, too. It was his best run.

Taker the best, it ain't a real debate. (c) Jadakiss

Nah.

 

[TheAlbionist]

False. Not until he fought HBK (some say Orton but I didn't watch back then). Like I said before, him being undefeated at WM was a "cool fact" back in the day. It was NOT a big deal nor an attraction when he beat Big Show and A-Train at WM19

The first time I noticed it as a fan was when it hit 13, so it must have been the Orton year that it became a real angle... it took time, but then truly great angles take time and the Streak got more than any other in history. Has there ever been an angle on that scale? 23 years for a pay off? I'm not even convinced it was intentional for the first 12 years, but after 13 it was huge. Once he'd got it past about 16 or 17 the Streak match was the unofficial main event of Mania no matter who was defending the title. The eventual loss to Brock was bigger than any title change that has ever occurred.

Put it this way, there weren't shots of grown adults looking like this when Warrior took the strap off Hogan or when Rocky turned heel at Deadly Game... this is a 23 years in the making face:

Dude is about to have an asthma attack.

 

[Heelish]

The first time I noticed it as a fan was when it hit 13, so it must have been the Orton year that it became a real angle... it took time, but then truly great angles take time and the Streak got more than any other in history. Has there ever been an angle on that scale? 23 years for a pay off? I'm not even convinced it was intentional for the first 12 years, but after 13 it was huge. Once he'd got it past about 16 or 17 the Streak match was the unofficial main event of Mania no matter who was defending the title. The eventual loss to Brock was bigger than any title change that has ever occurred.

Put it this way, there weren't shots of grown adults looking like this when Warrior took the strap off Hogan or when Rocky turned heel at Deadly Game... this is a 23 years in the making face:

Dude is about to have an asthma attack.

My brother and I were speechless when that happened. I don't care that Vince himself decided to end it, it was best for business. Taker cares about the business and Brock needed that win after losing to Cena and HHH. But yeah, the Streak became legendary over time. Again, I'm a fan of his and still marked out for his entrance when he was in Atlanta for WM27 and SS last year, just can't place him as top 10 status. Just need that final ABA run...

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

again, this isnt about LIKES. thread isnt asking where you rate taker on your favorites list. its about where he ranks on an all-time list.

lol. no im not a number-cruncher.




great. you googled a bunch of predictable wwf kayfabe-influenced lists. one of them tried to slide in names like bob backlund and a randomly placed lou thesz in hopes of looking credible. youre not helping your cause at all with this.

john cena in the top 20. i stopped reading when i saw edge in the top 15. this is the exact type chit im talkin bout.

the thing with getting respect by your peers is that, alot of the time, that respect stems from other chit. you know darn well they respect taker more for backstage stuff than his actual in-ring performances.


lol @ busta rhymes just having a few hits. he been around since '90 and stayed relevant longer than face.

aint nobody checking for scarface in 2016, except his core die-hard fanbase.

anyway, youre doing scarface an injustice by comparing him to taker. but im not a fan of dude so its whatever. i'll let you cook on that one.

1. Dude, I just grabbed the first lists I could find to show that pretty much ANYWHERE you look, Undertaker's in the top 10. YOU don't like the guy, but his PEERS, the fans, and most of the IWC consider him top 10. So, you're opinion's irrelevant. He's across the board respected.

2. And your peers respect is the most important thing of all BECAUSE they see you do shyt nobody else do and are influenced by what you do. They saw him at house shows, trained with him, saw him put matches together in the back, they know more about what makes a dude great than a dude just judging by what he sees on his TV.

3. Guy, Busta Rhymes didn't have a gold or platinum record until 1996. That's not being "relevant" since 1990. Leaders never went gold or plat. The only thing he had was a guest spot on "Scenario", which was dope, and a few other guests spots until "Woo-Hah" blew him up. He hasn't been relevant since the "New York shyt" came out in 2006. That's not being relevant since 1990.

4. Scarface is in one of the greatest Hip-Hop groups of all-time, The Geto Boys, which has classic albums, and has put out classic records since 1991, in spite of being a Southern rapper in a New York biased industry. Dude, went gold in 1991 and put out a UNIVERSALLY acclaimed album last year. That's relevant as fukk.

Nobody's been more consistently relevant than Scarface in history. You may be some East Coast biased dude, but there's no way that Busta Rhymes is more respected than Scarface universally.

The Source put Face at 16th in the greatest lyricists of all time. They put Busta Rhymes 37th

About.com puts Face at 6th all-time, they put Busta at 36th.

Face is on another level than Busta's wacky cartoon shyt

 

[Wacky D]

I thought the thread was asking why the gawd didn't succeed as a top guy

But that's neither nor there. Convo broke several ways as good convos should.

I'm curious as to where you rank Taker, what's guys does he rank with in your opinion?

yea youre right. this thread made a turn.

but my main point still stands. people are dancing around the task at hand, and dwelling moreso on childhood nostalgia and backstage respect.

as far as where i rank him, i have no real rankings list. guessing off the top of my head, i'd probably rank him somewhere in the top 50, just off GP because of his status.

1. Dude, I just grabbed the first lists I could find to show that pretty much ANYWHERE you look, Undertaker's in the top 10. YOU don't like the guy, but his PEERS, the fans, and most of the IWC consider him top 10. So, you're opinion's irrelevant. He's across the board respected.

2. And your peers respect is the most important thing of all BECAUSE they see you do shyt nobody else do and are influenced by what you do. They saw him at house shows, trained with him, saw him put matches together in the back, they know more about what makes a dude great than a dude just judging by what he sees on his TV.

3. Guy, Busta Rhymes didn't have a gold or platinum record until 1996. That's not being "relevant" since 1990. Leaders never went gold or plat. The only thing he had was a guest spot on "Scenario", which was dope, and a few other guests spots until "Woo-Hah" blew him up. He hasn't been relevant since the "New York shyt" came out in 2006. That's not being relevant since 1990.

4. Scarface is in one of the greatest Hip-Hop groups of all-time, The Geto Boys, which has classic albums, and has put out classic records since 1991, in spite of being a Southern rapper in a New York biased industry. Dude, went gold in 1991 and put out a UNIVERSALLY acclaimed album last year. That's relevant as fukk.

Nobody's been more consistently relevant than Scarface in history. You may be some East Coast biased dude, but there's no way that Busta Rhymes is more respected than Scarface universally.

The Source put Face at 16th in the greatest lyricists of all time. They put Busta Rhymes 37th

About.com puts Face at 6th all-time, they put Busta at 36th.

Face is on another level than Busta's wacky cartoon shyt

you care too much about propaganda and lists and chit.
posting up a bunch of standardized wwe universe lists dont mean chit. and if you didnt check to make sure the lists were respectable, then why did you post them? probably cuz you thought they were on-point.

peer respect is nice and all, but alot of the times, that chit isnt based on the stuff that matters to the actual product. im not gonna go back-n-forth about that anymore. lol.

as for the rap chit. first let me say that i was never comparing busta rhymes to scarface. i was comparing busta rhymes to the undertaker. in fact, i said that you were low-balling scarface by comparing him to undertaker. surely after all that, you shouldnt think that i was comparing busta to scarface. but then again, you were too busy googling up lists to peep it.

as far as arguing about busta rhymes goes, i just said that you were downplaying him. and now i know why. youre basing stuff off of sales. that early '90s busta was mad influential with the flow & popular. im not a fan but to brush him off as somebody that lingered around and flopped in that era is ridiculous. especially with that being a period where big time classics were droppin and they werent going gold either.

lol @ me being east coast biased. me of all people.

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

yea youre right. this thread made a turn.

but my main point still stands. people are dancing around the task at hand, and dwelling moreso on childhood nostalgia and backstage respect.

as far as where i rank him, i have no real rankings list. guessing off the top of my head, i'd probably rank him somewhere in the top 50, just off GP because of his status.





you care too much about propaganda and lists and chit.
posting up a bunch of standardized wwe universe lists dont mean chit. and if you didnt check to make sure the lists were respectable, then why did you post them? probably cuz you thought they were on-point.

peer respect is nice and all, but alot of the times, that chit isnt based on the stuff that matters to the actual product. im not gonna go back-n-forth about that anymore. lol.

as for the rap chit. first let me say that i was never comparing busta rhymes to scarface. i was comparing busta rhymes to the undertaker. in fact, i said that you were low-balling scarface by comparing him to undertaker. surely after all that, you shouldnt think that i was comparing busta to scarface. but then again, you were too busy googling up lists to peep it.

as far as arguing about busta rhymes goes, i just said that you were downplaying him. and now i know why. youre basing stuff off of sales. that early '90s busta was mad influential with the flow & popular. im not a fan but to brush him off as somebody that lingered around and flopped in that era is ridiculous. especially with that being a period where big time classics were droppin and they werent going gold either.

lol @ me being east coast biased. me of all people.

I didn't say Busta flopped. I said he had his time between the mid '90s and mid 2000s. That's accurate.

Scarface, like the Undertaker, has been an iconic figure since 1991, at least and has consistently been in the picture.

The Undertaker main evented Hell in a Cell a few months ago, 25 years after his debut.

Scarface put out a critically acclaimed album a few months ago, 25 years after his solo debut.

Busta's no p*ssy or chump, I agree, all I'm arguing is the respect level for Scarface is WAYYYYY more, which is what makes him like Taker, which is why grown men and women were crying when Lesnar broke the streak. That's a whole nother level of respect.