Why is pop/catchy music frowned upon in hip-hop/R&B?

[mobbinfms]

How is the sexual orientation of one's audience of any relevance here? Artists selling millions of records certainly have gay fans and a lot of the artists I listed were selling millions on millions more than Missy. Assuredly, all of those albums weren't purchases from Hip Hop heads.

There are hip hop heads who happen to be gay. sure. That's not what we are talking about though. We are talking about gay people who aren't hip hop fans but are big Missy fans.
I don't think that is a phenomenon for Rakim or Ghostface. I doubt there records get played at gay clubs. I bet Missy's do though. Admittedly, I'm out of my element here, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

Pretty much since "Juicy". I already addressed this.

Call hip hop producers that know how to make records watered down pop producers, brehs...

 

[FeloniousMonk]

..

 

[JustCKing]

Call hip hop producers that know how to make records watered down pop producers, brehs...

I don't necessarily consider them watered dowb, but people want to stress about the era of watered down Hip Hop and The Trackmasters were poster kids for it because you had producers who actually chopped samples looking at what they did as unoriginal. Most of the hits they had sound near identical to the records they sampled. Ya'll wanna call Puffy and The Hitmen soft and watered down, well they opened up the door for that.

 

[JustCKing]

There are hip hop heads who happen to be gay. sure. That's not what we are talking about though. We are talking about gay people who aren't hip hop fans but are big Missy fans.
I don't think that is a phenomenon for Rakim or Ghostface. I doubt there records get played at gay clubs. I bet Missy's do though. Admittedly, I'm out of my element here, so maybe I'm wrong.

We aren't talking about fans who aren't Hip Hop fans. We're talking about Missy fans who are also Hip Hop fans.

I really have no interest in proving whether Missy's songs get played at gay clubs are not. The whole gay fans discussion is pointless anyway and just another cop out based on speculation to discredit an artist's fan base any way.

 

[JustCKing]

Right. Pop songs.

Right. Which I would call pop music. Sounds like we are getting caught up in semantics at this point.

Nope. They were commercial. There's a difference.

That was more Bad Boy.

Hip hop is a box though. There is nothin wrong with hip hop fans wanting a rapper to make hip hop music. It's a style of music with certain definitional characteristics. You know it when you hear it.

Sure. I'm not arguing she was Britney Spears. Obviously she has a connection to hip hop. I'll go a step further and concede she's not as offensively pop as Florida, Pit and BEP.

Because of Lauryn singing that one song in particular. They would have done double play at most with just fugee la.

How?
She was never considered a lyricist. Or even a good rapper. Her albums were never considered hip hop classics. She's not heralded as some ground breaking hip hop producer. So what did they care about?

Pop music isn't necessarily watered down music. It's music that's catchy, easy on the ears, and easy to sing along to. Pop at it's core is commercialized mainstream music. No matter how you try to slice it. Trackmasters were about as commercial as it got in the 90's in terms of production. They were only rivaled by The Hitmen (whom the Trackmasters pretty much fathered). They worked on "Juicy" which pretty much birthed the Bad Boy sound.

Hip Hop is not a box. That's what makes it unique from everything that came before.

Missy is nowhere remotely close to what Flo-Rida, Pit, and BEP do. She doesn't make EDM records and the closest she came to making a song that sounds like that is "Lose Control".

There's plenty of rappers that aren't lyrical, but are still very much Hip Hop. Being a good rapper is subjective. Same thing with classics especially with that other thread going and posters are dismissive of iconic albums like It Takes A Nation. She's heralded as having a ground breaking sound.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

I don't necessarily consider them watered dowb, but people want to stress about the era of watered down Hip Hop and The Trackmasters were poster kids for it because you had producers who actually chopped samples looking at what they did as unoriginal. Most of the hits they had sound near identical to the records they sampled. Ya'll wanna call Puffy and The Hitmen soft and watered down, well they opened up the door for that.

Tone and Poke been producing since the late 80s.

They have showed thier diversity when it comes to production.

They are asked to craft records, not just make beats.

 

[JustCKing]

my keys are still moving because of the other side-arguments we got going. not because of the chit you were trying to keep going.

I'm a revisionist concerning what exactly? this is what I mean when I say that you have a habit of throwing chit at the wall, and hoping that it sticks.

I'm not frowning upon anything. you just don't want to come to the realization that missy lacks a legit hip-hop base. and you didn't back up your claims with anything tangible. you posted charts. LOL.

and no, tha crossroads, and buddah lovahz(the other song that youre referring to. which is a song about weed) do not epitomize what this thread is about. neither do the trackmasters or "it was written". none of that is POP. and I saw @mobbinfms break this down to you yesterday, so I'm not gonna go back-n-forth about it. I also saw multiple others break it down earlier in this thread.

well black eyed peas sold a lot of records. I see you left them out. and I'm sure flo-rida & pitbull get pretty good tour money, so obviously they have fanbases too. and I'm not even putting missy THAT FAR into the pop category. i'd moreso categorize her as r&b actually, but she has more common fans with those types than she does with the latter group of artists that you mentioned.

This is the side argument and what's funny is you're mostly responding to my posts. So yeah, you're still in here moving keys because you feel whatever need to respond to my posts.

You're revisionist because you post replies like "Jay only decided to have Timbaland helm an album for him after Hip Hop was over". Clear re-write.

You are frowning. Missy has a legit Hip Hop fan base. I backed up my claims with something tangible. You said she was bigger in R&B than Rap and yes I posted charts to prove that she wasn't. Why did I post charts? Because it is something that any poster following the thread can look up and see for themselves vs. me just making ridiculous claims for the sake of argument.

"Tha Crossroads" is a crossover record. It's clearly commercialized for the sake of reaching a wider audience and it did. That is why E. 1999 was able to move 5 million units. A huge part of Bone's popularity is because of that record. Yes, Bone blurred lines because they didn't just rap. They also harmonized within their rhymes. That's a huge part of their influence on modern rappers. Yes, E. 1999 is packed with more harder records, but those records didn't take it to the 5X platinum success that it became. "Buddah Lovahz" still has a heavy R&B sound. It being about weed is irrelevant.

The Trackmasters and It Was Written do epitomize what this thread is about. Was IWW not frowned upon when it came out? Was it not frowned upon for being Pop/catchy? The songs on IWW are clearly more structurally in tune with Pop because it's more melodic and hook/chorus driven. And again, he helped Will Smith create Big Willie Style coming off of the success of IWW.

The Black Eyed Peas were a Hip Hop group, but ventured off into sounds that blatantly chased the mainstream to the point of even going EDM. It's not the same fan base at all. Will.I.Am was the only thing keeping the group Hip Hop as he was producing for Game, Nas, Talib Kweli, Bone, and Busta Rhymes on the side. And no Missy doesn't share no fanbase with Flo-Rida and Pitbull because their fans only copped singles, Missy's fans copped the albums. Then there's the fact that the likes of Jay, Nas, Busta, Ghost, Red, and Meth weren't doing songs with them. Flo-Rida and Pitbull pretty much abandoned Hip Hop after their first albums.

 

[JustCKing]

Tone and Poke been producing since the late 80s.

They have showed thier diversity when it comes to production.

They are asked to craft records, not just make beats.

I know how long Tone and Poke have been producing.

As for the bolded, that doesn't negate what I was talking about. The Trackmasters were still looked at as producers who "watered down" the sound. I don't necessarily agree, but it is what it is. They looped samples. A lot of times, they re-played the samples they looped, but a lot of people looked at it as unoriginal and a lack of creativity. I don't really like the term Pop producer either, but that's a label that's erroneously attached to hit making producers who are versatile. I've defended them against people saying they ruined Nas's career.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

I know how long Tone and Poke have been producing.

As for the bolded, that doesn't negate what I was talking about. The Trackmasters were still looked at as producers who "watered down" the sound. I don't necessarily agree, but it is what it is. They looped samples. A lot of times, they re-played the samples they looped, but a lot of people looked at it as unoriginal and a lack of creativity. I don't really like the term Pop producer either, but that's a label that's erroneously attached to hit making producers who are versatile. I've defended them against people saying they ruined Nas's career.

What sound is that?

They are producers.

Its not like they where stuck in a lane.

People ask for a type of record and they present it.

From Juicy, to I Shot Ya, To Miami.

I know what you are saying, tho.

 

[JustCKing]

what were all these pop beats by the trackmasters?

sure, they were party-hardy producers that mostly catered towards urban radio, but since when is that considered pop?

 

[DJ Mart-Kos]

DJ Premier, Pete Rock looped samples to. I think Trackmasters just looped more catchy and easier to use samples.

 

[Wacky D]

You're revisionist because you post replies like "Jay only decided to have Timbaland helm an album for him after Hip Hop was over". Clear re-write.

You are frowning. Missy has a legit Hip Hop fan base. I backed up my claims with something tangible. You said she was bigger in R&B than Rap and yes I posted charts to prove that she wasn't. Why did I post charts? Because it is something that any poster following the thread can look up and see for themselves vs. me just making ridiculous claims for the sake of argument.

"Tha Crossroads" is a crossover record. It's clearly commercialized for the sake of reaching a wider audience and it did. That is why E. 1999 was able to move 5 million units. A huge part of Bone's popularity is because of that record. Yes, Bone blurred lines because they didn't just rap. They also harmonized within their rhymes. That's a huge part of their influence on modern rappers. Yes, E. 1999 is packed with more harder records, but those records didn't take it to the 5X platinum success that it became. "Buddah Lovahz" still has a heavy R&B sound. It being about weed is irrelevant.

The Trackmasters and It Was Written do epitomize what this thread is about. Was IWW not frowned upon when it came out? Was it not frowned upon for being Pop/catchy? The songs on IWW are clearly more structurally in tune with Pop because it's more melodic and hook/chorus driven. And again, he helped Will Smith create Big Willie Style coming off of the success of IWW.

how is the jay/timbaland comment revisionist? what jay-z album did timbaland helm before MCMG? do you know what it means to helm an album breh?

so missy has a legit hip-hop fanbase because she has songs on the rap charts...........OOOOOKKKKKKAAAYYYYYY.

and @mobbinfms asked you "what has missy done for hip-hop fans to care about her?" and you completely ducked that question.

e.99 eternal was double-triple plat before crossroads. so was creepin on ah comeup.

being melodic is NOT pop. crossroads is not pop. "it was written" is not pop. IWW was commercially geared and the singles were meant to reasonate with the r&b crowd at urban radio. how do you just jump & skip over r&b, to label this stuff as pop? this stuff wasn't catered to a pop audience. and tha crossroads, really just took off. if anything, you can make a case for some of their later stuff being pop. but not tha crossroads.

fiesta remix is not pop.

will smith was looking for a pop sound. they gave him what he paid for. destinys child was teetering the lines of pop, so they gave them a pseudo-pop record.

I'm saying where are these pop records from artists who are supposed to be str8 hip-hop. or supposed to be str8 r&b? that's what i meant by that question.

 

[SirBiatch]

@JustCKing caught so many bodies in this thread

 

[mobbinfms]

I don't necessarily consider them watered dowb, but people want to stress about the era of watered down Hip Hop and The Trackmasters were poster kids for it because you had producers who actually chopped samples looking at what they did as unoriginal. Most of the hits they had sound near identical to the records they sampled. Ya'll wanna call Puffy and The Hitmen soft and watered down, well they opened up the door for that.

Pete Rock did Juicy first.
Lots of classic hip hop records are just looped samples.
Bad Boy took it further with classic hip hop records and huge 80s pop/white records.
Puff was doing the sampling hip hop classic records for Mary and Jodeci in the early 90s.
I can't think off the top what the first record was to sample a classic white people record though?
Obviously there is a lot of gray area in all of this.