Why liberals should stop trying to ‘help’ black Americans

[Broke Wave]

Anytime you replace moral agents with animals or objects you have changed the argument completely.

- Dead7

Anyway, how's this for an argument

As a society gets richer, it has an obligation to provide a safety net for its citizens. Black people have been neglected by the state and therefore have an acute interest in reforming the existing framework in order to benefit themselves directly.

 

[acri1]

No one thinks this, but the truth is there is a much higher percentage of blacks on welfare than that of whites, which is belied by many b*llshyt welfare statistics thrown around by the left wing media. It makes it seem like the problem (whatever you think the problem is, depending on your perspective) is spread evenly, when in fact it very much is not.

... and its not that there is no need for safety nets, but that this specific safety net is horse sh*t.

The fallacious jump that is made, when you take some one who thinks welfare is a horrible program and conclude they must then oppose all safety nets... is something I like to do when trolling, not something you should be seriously arguing.

A higher percentage of black people receive welfare than white people, but black people are not even close to making up the majority of recipients. Also -

Another finding of the study is that the distribution of benefits no longer aligns with the demography of poverty. African-Americans, who make up 22 percent of the poor, receive 14 percent of government benefits, close to their 12 percent population share.

White non-Hispanics, who make up 42 percent of the poor, receive 69 percent of government benefits – again, much closer to their 64 percent population share.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...om-the-safety-net/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0



Might just be me, but for some reason I doubt Republicans will ever mention that.

But I digress, I suppose we can get back to our regularly scheduled blaming of black people for the existence of welfare.

 

[DEAD7]

As a society gets richer, it has an obligation to provide a safety net for its citizens.

Prove this.

 

[Broke Wave]

Prove this.

nikka that's my opinion

You could have easily asked me to prove that blacks have been "neglected" (a subjective term) by the state or that they have a vested interest in fixing the system. Other than that, the idea that the state shouldn't or doesn't have to provide for it's citizens and simply exists to facilitate business contracts and enforce laws is in my view primitive and childish. If you're operating from that view point then there's no reason for us to go any further.

 

[DEAD7]

A higher percentage of black people receive welfare than white people, but black people are not even close to making up the majority of recipients. Also -



http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...om-the-safety-net/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0



Might just be me, but for some reason I doubt Republicans will ever mention that.

But I digress, I suppose we can get back to our regularly scheduled blaming of black people for the existence of welfare.

I have seen the:
"38.8 percent of Caucasians, and 39.8 percent of African-Americans are on welfare."
stat thrown around too.
All of these statistics imply(some actually straight up say) that roughly 40 percent of whites are on welfare, as are roughly 40 percent of blacks. That is not accurate. "40 percent of welfare recipients are white" is a different proposition than "40 percent of whites are welfare recipients"
What "the left' has cleverly done is figured a way to to say, "non blacks use welfare more" or "It's about even," even though it's actually nowhere close to even.

I just think it's important to paint a clear picture of what's going on. What one would do with it after that point depends upon one's objectives. I would use it to show that progressive policies have hurt a much greater percentage of blacks than whites.

 

[J-Nice]

Liberalism has also succeeded, tragically, in convincing blacks to see themselves first and foremost as victims. Today there is no greater impediment to black advancement than the self-pitying mindset that permeates black culture.

Taken right out of the conservative handbook.

 

[DEAD7]

nikka that's my opinion

You could have easily asked me to prove that blacks have been "neglected" (a subjective term) by the state or that they have a vested interest in fixing the system. Other than that, the idea that the state shouldn't or doesn't have to provide for it's citizens and simply exists to facilitate business contracts and enforce laws is in my view primitive and childish. If you're operating from that view point then there's no reason for us to go any further.

My bad, you stated it like it was a truth.

 

[acri1]

I have seen the:
"38.8 percent of Caucasians, and 39.8 percent of African-Americans are on welfare."
stat thrown around too.
All of these statistics imply(some actually straight up say) that roughly 40 percent of whites are on welfare, as are roughly 40 percent of blacks. That is not accurate. "40 percent of welfare recipients are white" is a different proposition than "40 percent of whites are welfare recipients"

Nobody said or implied that at all.

Also nice how you ignored my other statistic (that even though a higher percentage of black people receive benefits, in terms of the actual money whites get more). But if you really think that welfare is a "black" issue, just do you.

 

[DEAD7]

Nobody said or implied that at all.

Also nice how you ignored my other statistic (that even though a higher percentage of black people receive benefits, in terms of the actual money whites get more). But if you really think that welfare is a "black" issue, just do you.

No one said it was a black issue.



Statistically, my biggest problem has to do with sweeping aside representation--whether it be even, over, or under.

For example (just making something up of course), if there were 15 times as many white billionaires as there were asian billionaires, that seems like a very unequal distribution. But if there also 15 times as many whites as asians in the population, there's actually no difference there at all, even though it appears totally unequal at first blush.
Its about painting a clear picture.

Spoiler

Now, from the best liberal view i can muster, welfare is an amelioration of other injustices, "society" or "capitalism" has screwed over more blacks than whites, leading to a much higher percentage of blacks needing welfare.
If I were a liberal I think I would go with that although perhaps it's just easier to score political points by pinning it on conservative southern whites.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

No one thinks this, but the truth is there is a much higher percentage of blacks on welfare than that of whites, which is belied by many b*llshyt welfare statistics thrown around by the left wing media. It makes it seem like the problem (whatever you think the problem is, depending on your perspective) is spread evenly, when in fact it very much is not.

... and its not that there is no need for safety nets, but that this specific safety net is horse sh*t.

The fallacious jump that is made, when you take some one who thinks welfare is a horrible program and conclude they must then oppose all safety nets... is something I like to do when trolling, not something you should be seriously arguing.

What about the people who draw spurious convenient links between blacks, Democrats and welfare? Why are we even talking about welfare, when most black people will never even use it? How can something that only benefits a few be used to qualify everybody?

 

[DEAD7]

What about the people who draw spurious convenient links between blacks, Democrats and welfare? Why are we even talking about welfare, when most black people will never even use it? How can something that only benefits a few be used to qualify everybody?

I dont believe its used to qualify everybody(i could be wrong), and I think the links(at least in part) are legit... in the same way that the links between whites, Republicans, and racism are legit.

 

[Reality]

No. No. NO!!

Politics is absolutely NOT a secondary issue. Also, the issues that black people currently face will not be solved simply by business or capitalism.

Again you're practicing selective memory and not paying attention to history or context. Following emancipation, an entrepreneurial spirit was promulgated in the black community by various people (Booker T Washington being the most notable). Black people being the creative people they are hurriedly took to this and the end result was a proliferation of black owned businesses (i.e. insurance companies, banks, grocery stores, etc). Mind you this was back in the nineteenth century. NINETEENTH CENTURY! Just like all Americans, black people understand business and capitalism very well, there's no sort of handicap we're ailing from.

Unsurprisingly, all of these businesses ended up being failures, due to a combination of a lack of business acumen on the part of the blacks, and duplicity on the part of the liberal whites who were assisting with these ventures. This trend of start a business, bust, start another business, bust, has continued well into the modern day.

Also, if you think about it, Jim Crow unintentionally fostered an entrepreneurial spirit in southern black communities. The majority of stores servicing the segregated blacks were black-owned. This is good right? Nope. When you tallied the profits up, these stores were almost always doing worse than similar black-owned stores up north, where the POLITICS was different and segregation was not a concern.

I highly suggest you read Frazier's Black Bourgeoisie as it covers this topic in full, complete with hard data.

Interesting. Any other material you can recommend that addresses the success of black business in segregation?

 

[OCCAMS_RAZOR]

Interesting. Any other material you can recommend that addresses the success of black business in segregation?

Hello,

Frazier left some references, but it's been a while since I read the book so I can't recall. If you read the book it should be able to start you off on reading material slanted towards that topic.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I dont believe its used to qualify everybody(i could be wrong), and I think the links(at least in part) are legit... in the same way that the links between whites, Republicans, and racism are legit.

Who is the welfare Lee Atwater?

 

[DEAD7]

Who is the welfare Lee Atwater?

Point taken.

But those kind of links are made across the board in every direction, and i'm willing to bet there is at least a little validity to all of them.