Why Moses Malone doesnt get the respect he should?

[Greenhornet]

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Russell
4 Larry
5 Kobe
6 Kareem
7 Dr J
8 Hakeem
9 Magic
10 Moses

obviously this is from 2013 ...
Id move Moses off ... hakeem down and put Lebron near the middle

used to throw Moses on my 10 just to keep his name in discussions


1 Russell
2 Jordan
3 Kareem
4 Wilt
5 Kobe
6 Duncan
7 Lebron
8 Larry
9 Magic
10 KD

too hard to make a solid top 10 ... if you base it on accollades certain shyt cancels out like help and load (pause)
you can do it by skill but most people wouldnt, and people wouldnt understand


it was hard to remove Dr J for me because although other people had better careers as of now... they didnt do as much for the game as Julius
I put Duncan higher for career... but if I went by skill Id have Lebron and them over him ... he'd be like 10. for me... no disrespect. Still got Moses and them very high right behind for impact ... there's too many good basketball players from the 60s onward. Steph and them moving up and could make it easily too ... 10 isnt enough... maybe at the end of his career he will be an easy top.... I do believe KD gets 1 more chip ... if not it would be hard to have him in the top 10, its more well wishing on my part from a basketball skill perspective

 

[mitter]

I didn't see him play, did you? So I respect your take but Here's my issue with this:

1. Among guys routinely considered Top 20, the following also are or were known as average or less defenders at peak: Dirk, Steph, Erving, Durant, Robertson, Shaq, Bird, Magic...

Why would this be something you hold exclusively against Moses?

2. That Sixers team never wins a championship if Moses goes elsewhere when he dumped Houston. Erving was not the guy to get them over the crest, evidenced by his own playoff flops prior to Moses...

There's alot of guys on that GOAT 20 list that had multiple playoff flops, why focus that distinction on the one guy we NEVER discuss?

It’s not just the multiple playoff flops. It’s that he was done as an MVP caliber player relatively early. If he came back from those flops (like Magic in 87-88, Bird in 84-87, Jordan in 96-98, etc.), his story would be told differently.

A 31 year old Moses was traded (along with Terry Catledge and two first round picks) for Jeff Ruland and Clifford T. Robinson. That says a lot.

 

[AlbertPullhoez]

He used to abuse Kareem though

 

[mitter]

I didn't see him play, did you? So I respect your take but Here's my issue with this:

1. Among guys routinely considered Top 20, the following also are or were known as average or less defenders at peak: Dirk, Steph, Erving, Durant, Robertson, Shaq, Bird, Magic...

Why would this be something you hold exclusively against Moses?

2. That Sixers team never wins a championship if Moses goes elsewhere when he dumped Houston. Erving was not the guy to get them over the crest, evidenced by his own playoff flops prior to Moses...

There's alot of guys on that GOAT 20 list that had multiple playoff flops, why focus that distinction on the one guy we NEVER discuss?

It’s not just the multiple playoff flops. It’s that he was done as an MVP caliber player relatively early. If he came back from those flops (like Magic in 87-88, Bird in 84-87, Jordan in 96-98, etc.), his story would be told differently.

A 31 year old Moses was traded (along with Terry Catledge and two first round picks) for Jeff Ruland and Clifford T. Robinson. That says a lot.

 

[mitter]

Sorry about the double post

 

[Tony D'Amato]

Bernard King don't get his props. Its a lot of old timers that would give these kids the bizness

 

[feelosofer]

He's considered my many to be a top 10 player in his position.

I also think the NBA doesn't not give a lot of shine to 70s players outside of Kareem and Dr. J.

 

[murksiderock]

How did he peaked higher than Dr. J... Since coming to the NBA, Doc went to the finals four times, conference finals finals 7 times.... Dude has one ring, but he had the 6ers in contention every year.

Their advanced stats are basically 50/50, Moses has shyt like PER, TS and FTr in his favor while The Doctor has shyt like VORP and BPM stats in his favor. So if the production was more or less equal, it boils it down to results and impact on the floor, play in big series, etc...

Jimmy Butler is gonna lose alot of statistical arguments to many people but his floor-raising, consistent winning, and if he leads another Finals run and/or ultimately a championship, that's going to be in his favor in a ton of comps...

This Dr J you're arguing for:

•walked into the NBA from the ABA onto a playoff squad. Moses didn't;

•blew a 2-0 lead as the favorite to start the series in the '77 Finals. Granted, this series he was the best player on the floor but he had five games to win 2, and won 0. Two of those losses in blowout fashion. Not sure the sentiment in '77 but today, a generational talent like Erving getting backdoor swept on the grandest stage would get him annihilated on all platforms, he wouldn't get away with it today and I can't give him a pass for getting backdoored in The Finals by an underdog;

•'78, lost the ECF to a fukking 44-win team, again as a heavy favorite, again with home court. There's a theme brewing;

•'80 Finals, it's a 2-2 series in G5, The Doctor was great that game, then had a comedy of errors. Poor help defense on the Lob to Kareem, gets posterized, then he fouled him giving up an extra point, there's 40-odd seconds left in a tie game, why foul? Comes down on the other end with the dumbest, most rushed goofy layup that of course, he misses. Go watch this shyt, it's on YouTube as are most of these games...

This swung the series, in G6 its a 2-point deficit with 5 left and his Sixers get outscored 20-6 the rest of the way. He wasn't the guy who could stop the bleeding when it absolutely needed time be stopped, there's a pattern here;

•'81 ECF, guess who is the front man for blowing a 3-1 lead? Of course it's Julius Erving, who else would it be. Closing issues, mental lapses, backdoored, 44-win team beats you, now 3-1 lead on the door of The Finals;

•'82 Finals, end up down 1-3 with home court and lose all but G1 by 10+ points...

The next season Moses comes and what do you know, the guy whose had trouble closing major playoff series gets a ring...

I can add more context to all of these, and again, obviously I didn't see these in real time, but these games are pretty well documented and alot of them are on YouTube...

Dr J was not that guy. Conversely, we can talk about whether Moses has some gaffes of his own but nobody in that era of this stature had the pattern Erving had. No one. It's embarrassing...

@mastermind @mitter you're talking playoff flops about Moses but comparing him directly to a nikka in Dr J who stayed in choke mode. I can't in good conscience elevate him over a guy who took two teams to The Finals and worked Kareem who stayed sonning Dr J...

 

[mastermind]

@mastermind @mitter you're talking playoff flops about Moses but comparing him directly to a nikka in Dr J who stayed in choke mode

you shytting in Dr. J who took Ls in the conference finals and finals.

Moses Malone and those Sixers teams got bounced in round one And two.

 

[Shadow King]

Their advanced stats are basically 50/50, Moses has shyt like PER, TS and FTr in his favor while The Doctor has shyt like VORP and BPM stats in his favor. So if the production was more or less equal, it boils it down to results and impact on the floor, play in big series, etc...

Jimmy Butler is gonna lose alot of statistical arguments to many people but his floor-raising, consistent winning, and if he leads another Finals run and/or ultimately a championship, that's going to be in his favor in a ton of comps...

This Dr J you're arguing for:

•walked into the NBA from the ABA onto a playoff squad. Moses didn't;

•blew a 2-0 lead as the favorite to start the series in the '77 Finals. Granted, this series he was the best player on the floor but he had five games to win 2, and won 0. Two of those losses in blowout fashion. Not sure the sentiment in '77 but today, a generational talent like Erving getting backdoor swept on the grandest stage would get him annihilated on all platforms, he wouldn't get away with it today and I can't give him a pass for getting backdoored in The Finals by an underdog;

•'78, lost the ECF to a fukking 44-win team, again as a heavy favorite, again with home court. There's a theme brewing;

•'80 Finals, it's a 2-2 series in G5, The Doctor was great that game, then had a comedy of errors. Poor help defense on the Lob to Kareem, gets posterized, then he fouled him giving up an extra point, there's 40-odd seconds left in a tie game, why foul? Comes down on the other end with the dumbest, most rushed goofy layup that of course, he misses. Go watch this shyt, it's on YouTube as are most of these games...

This swung the series, in G6 its a 2-point deficit with 5 left and his Sixers get outscored 20-6 the rest of the way. He wasn't the guy who could stop the bleeding when it absolutely needed time be stopped, there's a pattern here;

•'81 ECF, guess who is the front man for blowing a 3-1 lead? Of course it's Julius Erving, who else would it be. Closing issues, mental lapses, backdoored, 44-win team beats you, now 3-1 lead on the door of The Finals;

•'82 Finals, end up down 1-3 with home court and lose all but G1 by 10+ points...

The next season Moses comes and what do you know, the guy whose had trouble closing major playoff series gets a ring...

I can add more context to all of these, and again, obviously I didn't see these in real time, but these games are pretty well documented and alot of them are on YouTube...

Dr J was not that guy. Conversely, we can talk about whether Moses has some gaffes of his own but nobody in that era of this stature had the pattern Erving had. No one. It's embarrassing...

@mastermind @mitter you're talking playoff flops about Moses but comparing him directly to a nikka in Dr J who stayed in choke mode. I can't in good conscience elevate him over a guy who took two teams to The Finals and worked Kareem who stayed sonning Dr J...

This seems like what it basically comes down to for you. For all you're saying, Doc was leading teams deep and other than 77, was losing to a dynasty in the Finals. Moses is 0-2 in those Finals before getting with Philly and with more early exits. Moses playing bully ball with beanpole Kareem doesn't speak to his overall game.

Oddly enough Doc and Moses are predecessors to Steph and KD, from one being a MVP joining a ready made squad to being 2 ceiling raisers (not floor raisers) their ability to win being tied to one another.

 

[Street Knowledge]

He top 30

 

[mitter]

Their advanced stats are basically 50/50, Moses has shyt like PER, TS and FTr in his favor while The Doctor has shyt like VORP and BPM stats in his favor. So if the production was more or less equal, it boils it down to results and impact on the floor, play in big series, etc...

Jimmy Butler is gonna lose alot of statistical arguments to many people but his floor-raising, consistent winning, and if he leads another Finals run and/or ultimately a championship, that's going to be in his favor in a ton of comps...

This Dr J you're arguing for:

•walked into the NBA from the ABA onto a playoff squad. Moses didn't;

•blew a 2-0 lead as the favorite to start the series in the '77 Finals. Granted, this series he was the best player on the floor but he had five games to win 2, and won 0. Two of those losses in blowout fashion. Not sure the sentiment in '77 but today, a generational talent like Erving getting backdoor swept on the grandest stage would get him annihilated on all platforms, he wouldn't get away with it today and I can't give him a pass for getting backdoored in The Finals by an underdog;

•'78, lost the ECF to a fukking 44-win team, again as a heavy favorite, again with home court. There's a theme brewing;

•'80 Finals, it's a 2-2 series in G5, The Doctor was great that game, then had a comedy of errors. Poor help defense on the Lob to Kareem, gets posterized, then he fouled him giving up an extra point, there's 40-odd seconds left in a tie game, why foul? Comes down on the other end with the dumbest, most rushed goofy layup that of course, he misses. Go watch this shyt, it's on YouTube as are most of these games...

This swung the series, in G6 its a 2-point deficit with 5 left and his Sixers get outscored 20-6 the rest of the way. He wasn't the guy who could stop the bleeding when it absolutely needed time be stopped, there's a pattern here;

•'81 ECF, guess who is the front man for blowing a 3-1 lead? Of course it's Julius Erving, who else would it be. Closing issues, mental lapses, backdoored, 44-win team beats you, now 3-1 lead on the door of The Finals;

•'82 Finals, end up down 1-3 with home court and lose all but G1 by 10+ points...

The next season Moses comes and what do you know, the guy whose had trouble closing major playoff series gets a ring...

I can add more context to all of these, and again, obviously I didn't see these in real time, but these games are pretty well documented and alot of them are on YouTube...

Dr J was not that guy. Conversely, we can talk about whether Moses has some gaffes of his own but nobody in that era of this stature had the pattern Erving had. No one. It's embarrassing...

@mastermind @mitter you're talking playoff flops about Moses but comparing him directly to a nikka in Dr J who stayed in choke mode. I can't in good conscience elevate him over a guy who took two teams to The Finals and worked Kareem who stayed sonning Dr J...

I disagree with your characterization of Dr. J’s career.

The 76ers were favorites entering the 1977 finals, but in retrospect, that Blazers team was a powerhouse and probably would have been a dynasty had Bill Walton stayed healthy. They started the 77-78 season 50-8 or something before Walton got hurt. In 1978, the 76ers lost to the eventual champion Bullets.

The 76ers of Doc’s first two seasons were a dysfunctional group filled with oversized egos and less than the sum of its parts. After the roster was shaken up, the 76ers had a transition year with lots of injured players (including Doc himself) and lost to Gervin’s Spurs in a very close 7 game series.

From 1980-82, the 76ers were either in the finals or the de facto finals (1981). Three times they faced the Celtics. All three times the Celtics had home court advantage and were favored, yet the 76ers won two out of the three times. They had the bad luck of facing a more talented Lakers teams the two times they won, while the Celtics lucked out in 1981 facing the overmatched Rockets. To sum up: the Sixers were, if anything, overachieving.

I find your summary of 1980 Game 5 really odd. Yes, Doc fouled Kareem. It happens. He went up and tried to make a play (many of today’s players would have just stayed out of the way to avoid getting “posterized”). Doc played really well in that game and was the reason it was so close.

I actually think the final few plays of that game perfectly symbolized the way that (at least in the NBA of that time) a great center was more valuable than a great wing. On one end, Kareem went up for a dunk, Dr. J challenged him, but couldn’t stop him. On the other end, Dr. J drove to the basket and Kareem was able to force him to take a difficult shot which fell short.

 

[mitter]

@murksiderock

The people who I rank ahead of Moses spent about a decade or more as MVP-caliber players (MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan and others). Moses had 5 years at that level.

All those players were on teams that suffered major setbacks, but they always brought their teams back the next season or two, achieving more than critics expected (at least through their early 30s).

Think of the 1987-89 and 1991 Lakers, 1996-98 Bulls, 1984-86 Celtics, 2007 Spurs, etc.

If Moses had brought the 76ers back to championship contention in the mid 80s playing at an MVP level, he would rate on the same level as the guys I mentioned.

 

[murksiderock]

you shytting in Dr. J who took Ls in the conference finals and finals.

Moses Malone and those Sixers teams got bounced in round one And two.

Bruh it isn't about just losing, it's the manner in which he's losing. Multiple times as a favorite, got backdoored in a Finals (we shytted on Dirk for that back in '06 by the way), best player on a team that blew a 3-1 lead. That matters to me...

Moses took essentially a .500 team to a Finals, beating the defending champs along the way, and was already a 2x MVP. He shows up in Philly and now Dr J "gets over the hump"...

Dr J is overrated because of his ABA career (only 5 years there by the way, where only half the best players in the world were at best. Cats act like he spent half his life there) and because of his above the rim, groundbreaking play style. If we hold him to the same standards we hold all greats to there should be a problem with the continual playoff struggles...

This seems like what it basically comes down to for you. For all you're saying, Doc was leading teams deep and other than 77, was losing to a dynasty in the Finals. Moses is 0-2 in those Finals before getting with Philly and with more early exits. Moses playing bully ball with beanpole Kareem doesn't speak to his overall game.

Oddly enough Doc and Moses are predecessors to Steph and KD, from one being a MVP joining a ready made squad to being 2 ceiling raisers (not floor raisers) their ability to win being tied to one another.

Mo didn't have the teams around him Erving did in Philly, come on now. Philly was loaded with multiple All-Stars every single season and never won a title, how is this not an indictment on them?

How is it not an indictment on their best player?

I disagree with your characterization of Dr. J’s career.

The 76ers were favorites entering the 1977 finals, but in retrospect, that Blazers team was a powerhouse and probably would have been a dynasty had Bill Walton stayed healthy. They started the 77-78 season 50-8 or something before Walton got hurt. In 1978, the 76ers lost to the eventual champion Bullets.

The 76ers of Doc’s first two seasons were a dysfunctional group filled with oversized egos and less than the sum of its parts. After the roster was shaken up, the 76ers had a transition year with lots of injured players (including Doc himself) and lost to Gervin’s Spurs in a very close 7 game series.

From 1980-82, the 76ers were either in the finals or the de facto finals (1981). Three times they faced the Celtics. All three times the Celtics had home court advantage and were favored, yet the 76ers won two out of the three times. They had the bad luck of facing a more talented Lakers teams the two times they won, while the Celtics lucked out in 1981 facing the overmatched Rockets. To sum up: the Sixers were, if anything, overachieving.

I find your summary of 1980 Game 5 really odd. Yes, Doc fouled Kareem. It happens. He went up and tried to make a play (many of today’s players would have just stayed out of the way to avoid getting “posterized”). Doc played really well in that game and was the reason it was so close.

I actually think the final few plays of that game perfectly symbolized the way that (at least in the NBA of that time) a great center was more valuable than a great wing. On one end, Kareem went up for a dunk, Dr. J challenged him, but couldn’t stop him. On the other end, Dr. J drove to the basket and Kareem was able to force him to take a difficult shot which fell short.

'80 Finals G5, tie score with 40 seconds left, you don't foul. There was no need to, it was a poor decision to go contest seeing as the pass already beat him over the top. Bad decision making...

On the next possession you can clearly see he rushed the shot...

I could say Philly overachieved except for the fact there was multiple All-Stars (2+) on that team every year. I could say Philly overachieved except fir the fact they were in the ECF 5 of 6 years pre-Moses, and had three Finals trips that ended winless...

Moses comes and there is no debate he was instantly the best player on the team and raised their ceiling from Finals participant to champions...

I hear you fam but your characterization of Erving's career seems to ignore the low points and highlight his career as some carry job that it actually wasn't...

 

[mitter]

'80 Finals G5, tie score with 40 seconds left, you don't foul. There was no need to, it was a poor decision to go contest seeing as the pass already beat him over the top. Bad decision making...

On the next possession you can clearly see he rushed the shot...

I could say Philly overachieved except for the fact there was multiple All-Stars (2+) on that team every year. I could say Philly overachieved except fir the fact they were in the ECF 5 of 6 years pre-Moses, and had three Finals trips that ended winless...

Moses comes and there is no debate he was instantly the best player on the team and raised their ceiling from Finals participant to champions...

I hear you fam but your characterization of Erving's career seems to ignore the low points and highlight his career as some carry job that it actually wasn't...

It wasn't a deliberate foul, he was trying to make a play, and considering his shot-blocking abilities, it was the right play. You are overanalyzing things that occurred during split seconds.

Philly overachieved in the pre-Moses years because they beat a more talented Boston team 2 out of 3 times. The Celtics had Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell, Archibald, etc. I already pointed out that the Celtics had home court advantage all three years and were favored to win all three years. If Philly had just been more lucky and beat the Celtics in 1981 instead of 1980 or 1982, they would have won a championship.

The Sixers lost in the finals to a superior Lakers team that had Kareem, Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, Cooper, McAdoo (in 1982), etc.

Dr. J turned 33 during the year Moses joined the team and past his prime. It's not like Moses was a big star at 33.