Why would a loving God send people to hell?

[NoMayo15]

According to who?

According to me ... and to be honest, everyone. Do you think it would be better if we had a justice system that worked just like god's system? Where a speeding ticket, and mass murder are equivalent crimes in the eyes of the law? Only insane people would agree this is fair and just. And yes, even if the child didn't love them back, I don't think any loving mother or father would allow their child to be tortured forever.

Well it's clear you missed my point. I'm not talking about "don't care" as in fukk everybody else. I mean they don't matter in this discussion pertaining to you and your personal relationship, or lack there of with your creator. I'm also not a Christian but your kind has a knack for limited knowledge and applying the same tired, thoughtless arguments again and again. Not that that matters because the entire point went over your head anyway.

Well I wasn't talking about my own "personal relationship", it's really irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. You've answered NONE of the questions I've asked, but the arguments are thoughtless. Okay, I see how this is gonna go now...

Again, with the lack of understanding in terms of other people. You can re-read what I posted above. You don't know anyone's situation but your own so comparing your situation to anyone else's is completely pointless. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand.

Okay but I wasn't talking about my situation in particular, you were. I was talking generally, bringing up two completely hypothetical situations to show that you follow an immoral system.

You don't understand finding God internally? This doesn't surprise me. Nonbelievers are known to only know/believe what is directly in front of their faces. You'll never find God there. I suggest looking somewhere else.

Okay you're right. I started looking into the FSM church and I'm convinced! May he bless you with his noodly appendage.

And you say you are grateful? To whom or what? You don't care to know that answer?

I JUST said what I'm grateful towards

A few weeks ago someone sent a package to my house containing toys for my kids' birthdays which are a few weeks apart. However, the package gave no indication as to who sent it. All the papers and return addresses didn't contain this vital info. Eventually my wife had to put a message on facebook to see who would claim responsibility. Turns out it was my sister. We thanked her on facebook. Called and thanked her and let the kids thank her. Then the kids made thank you cards for her. And that was just for some toys, breh. Surely you have much more to be grateful for, yet you won't even take the time to educate yourself as to WHO to thank. You are certainly ungrateful.

I noticed you left out the part where you told your kids to thank god for creating your sister. Why not send thank you letters to the toy company as well? And the Chinese children who spent hours in a factory making the toys your children can play with. You ungrateful heathen. Repent now, sinner. You know god don't like ugly.

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

According to me ... and to be honest, everyone. Do you think it would be better if we had a justice system that worked just like god's system? Where a speeding ticket, and mass murder are equivalent crimes in the eyes of the law? Only insane people would agree this is fair and just. And yes, even if the child didn't love them back, I don't think any loving mother or father would allow their child to be tortured forever.

I amended my post because I actually omitted that part but you're welcome to go read the changes. Basically, you are in no position to judge these things, as you don't know everyone's circumstance.

And you're comparing individual transgressions with a lifetime of it anyway. I don't think God sends people to hell for speeding, friend.

Well I wasn't talking about my own "personal relationship", it's really irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. You've answered NONE of the questions I've asked, but the arguments are thoughtless. Okay, I see how this is gonna go now...

Why would your personal relationship with God be relevant to your personal relationship with God?
Is that what you just asked me?

Okay but I wasn't talking about my situation in particular, you were. I was talking generally, bringing up two completely hypothetical situations to show that you follow an immoral system.

So again, you're choosing to focus on things that have nothing to do with you rather than answering the questions that need answering in your own life? Your hypothetical situations will always be invalid unless you can account for every second of this other person's life, which you cannot, therefore they don't matter in regards to you. You don't know what each individual goes through so you can NEVER speak for them. However, you can speak for yourself. I would suggest you take responsibility for you.

I noticed you left out the part where you told your kids to thank god for creating your sister. Why not send thank you letters to the toy company as well? And the Chinese children who spent hours in a factory making the toys your children can play with. You ungrateful heathen. Repent now, sinner. You know god don't like ugly.

Yes, my kids know to thank God for many things. But there is no need to thank the company seeing as how they have been compensated, as per the agreement for transaction, and the workers were compensated by the wage they agreed upon.

I JUST said what I'm grateful towards

You said nothing of the sort. You said what you are thankful for. But where does that thanks go?

 

[NoMayo15]

I amended my post because I actually omitted that part but you're welcome to go read the changes. Basically, you are in no position to judge these things, as you don't know everyone's circumstance. And you're comparing individual transgressions with a lifetime of it anyway. I don't think God sends people to hell for speeding, friend.

Can you stop ducking and respond to ANY question directly?

Why would your personal relationship with God be relevant to your personal relationship with God?
Is that what you just asked me?

No, my personal relationship is irrelevant to the hypotheticals I presented.

So again, you're choosing to focus on things that have nothing to do with you rather than answering the questions that need answering in your own life? Your hypothetical situations will always be invalid unless you can account for every second of this other person's life, which you cannot, therefore they don't matter in regards to you. You don't know what each individual goes through so you can NEVER speak for them. However, you can speak for yourself. I would suggest you take responsibility for you.

Well apparently the notion of a hypothetical goes over your head. What difference does it make if I don't know what's happened every second of a person's life? I can look at a single instance and judge whether it does a net good or net harm.

Yes, my kids know to thank God for many things. But there is no need to thank the company seeing as how they have been compensated, as per the agreement for transaction, and the workers were compensated by the wage they agreed upon.

Fair enough.

You said nothing of the sort. You said what you are thankful for. But where does that thanks go?

Wow... please tell me you're trolling? Where thankful and grateful ... is VASTLY different.

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Can you stop ducking and respond to ANY question directly?

What question did you ask? Is speeding and murder the same thing? No, of course not. But I don't see how that's relevant seeing as how you will never know another person's entire story. God knows and God is just. You're the one creating an unjust system by taking God out of the equation. Now who is left to judge such matters? You?

No, my personal relationship is irrelevant to the hypotheticals I presented.

And again to your hypotheticals because they are irrelevant to you and incomplete even if they did matter.

Well apparently the notion of a hypothetical goes over your head. What difference does it make if I don't know what's happened every second of a person's life? I can look at a single instance and judge whether it does a net good or net harm.

No, the notion does not go over my head. But in this instance, the notion goes straight to the bushes because once again, you're hypotheticals are incomplete. You're not giving total recounts of your hypothetical individuals therefore the answer to any question you ask in regards to them and eternal judgement is "Not Enough Info" by default.

Wow... please tell me you're trolling? Where thankful and grateful ... is VASTLY different.

Talk about going over my head?

You said "I'm grateful my family birthed and cared for me. I'm grateful I live in a mostly free society. There are plenty of real tangible things to be grateful for."

I then asked to WHOM or WHAT are you grateful/thankful to? You told me what you're grateful/thankful for. My kids were thankful for their new toys, so they gave thanks to my sister.

I;m not trolling, just losing you along the way.

 

[NoMayo15]

What question did you ask? Is speeding and murder the same thing? No, of course not. But I don't see how that's relevant seeing as how you will never know another person's entire story. God knows and God is just. You're the one creating an unjust system by taking God out of the equation. Now who is left to judge such matters? You?

Okay, finally after some serious teeth pulling you at least acknowledge that giving equal punishments for unequal crimes is ludicrous.

And again to your hypotheticals because they are irrelevant to you and incomplete even if they did matter. No, the notion does not go over my head. But in this instance, the notion goes straight to the bushes because once again, you're hypotheticals are incomplete. You're not giving total recounts of your hypothetical individuals therefore the answer to any question you ask in regards to them and eternal judgement is "Not Enough Info" by default.

You keep bringing up entire life story ... I don't see why it's relevant. Do you not think committing any sin once is punishable by hellfire?

Talk about going over my head? You said "I'm grateful my family birthed and cared for me. I'm grateful I live in a mostly free society. There are plenty of real tangible things to be grateful for." I then asked to WHOM or WHAT are you grateful/thankful to? You told me what you're grateful/thankful for. My kids were thankful for their new toys, so they gave thanks to my sister.I;m not trolling, just losing you along the way.

I'M GRATEFUL TO MY FAMILY. I'M GRATEFUL TO SOCIETY. I thought that went without saying. Your kids didn't thank the government for allowing the sale of toys, or the company for creating the toys, they thanked the person directly responsible for the gift. Now you're saying I should be grateful to this entity that seems made up to me. How do you know he allows me to breathe? And please... "Because it's written" isn't a good answer.

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Okay, finally after some serious teeth pulling you at least acknowledge that giving equal punishments for unequal crimes is ludicrous.

I don't remember that ever being a debate but thank you for stating the obvious, I guess.

You keep bringing up entire life story ... I don't see why it's relevant. Do you not think committing any sin once is punishable by hellfire?

You don't see how an entire life story is relevant? We're talking about our entire lives being judged, why would our entire life story not be relevant?

I'M GRATEFUL TO MY FAMILY. I'M GRATEFUL TO SOCIETY. I thought that went without saying. Your kids didn't thank the government for allowing the sale of toys, or the company for creating the toys, they thanked the person directly responsible for the gift. Now you're saying I should be grateful to this entity that seems made up to me. How do you know he allows me to breathe? And please... "Because it's written" isn't a good answer.

You're clearly thinking on a smaller and smaller scale all while ignoring the big picture. You want my kids to "thank the government for allowing the sales of toys" but you won't even give thanks for the air you breathe. Which is more important?

 

[NoMayo15]

You don't see how an entire life story is relevant? We're talking about our entire lives being judged, why would our entire life story not be relevant?

In the hypotheticals, you know the person's life story.

But in terms of a reasonable application of law, you don't necessarily have to know a person's entire life story to know they should be punished for a crime ... even if they are trulyyy sorry about it

You're clearly thinking on a smaller and smaller scale all while ignoring the big picture. You want my kids to "thank the government for allowing the sales of toys" but you won't even give thanks for the air you breathe. Which is more important?

I don't really want your kids to thank the government. I was trying to show how ridiculous it would be to thank them. What should I give thanks to for air and why?

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

In the hypotheticals, you know the person's life story.

But in terms of a reasonable application of law, you don't necessarily have to know a person's entire life story to know they should be punished for a crime ... even if they are trulyyy sorry about it

Your hypothetical situation fails on so many levels. First of all, there is no hypothetical where you know another person's life story. Secondly, you're discussing laws while I'm talking about something much bigger than that. In your hypothetical situation, a human is making a judgement regarding another human who they obviously don'y know everything about. That's not the same as your creator, being well acquainted with all that you've done and judging you accordingly.

I don't really want your kids to thank the government. I was trying to show how ridiculous it would be to thank them. What should I give thanks to for air and why?

But instead you only made yourself look ridiculous by comparing giving thanks to God for life to giving thanks to the government for allowing free trade.

 

[rapbeats]

... Do you think it would be better if we had a justice system that worked just like god's system? Where a speeding ticket, and mass murder are equivalent crimes in the eyes of the law? Only insane people would agree this is fair and just. ....

lets address this.

What would happen if young adults and teens that normally get speeding tickets had to do jail time like mass murders? odds are speeding would go down to a point where it would be pretty much incalculable. How many lives would that save? (meaning, how many people lose their lives to speeders?"

Consider These Speed-Related Facts:

• Rural roads account for over 60 percent of all speed-related fatal crashes.
• Sixty six percent of speed-related crashes involved a single vehicle..
• Sixty percent of all speed- related fatal crashes occurred at night (6 pm to 6 am)..
• Drivers involved in speed-related fatal crashes are more likely to have a history of traffic violations..
• On average, 1,000 Americans are killed every month in speed-related crashes.

Youth and Speeding
Of all drivers aged 15-24 years of age involved in fatal crashes, 32 percent were speeding.

Of drivers under age 21 involved in fatal crashes, 38 percent of the male and 24 percent of the female drivers were speeding.

so lets do the math 1000 americans die every month. thats 12000 americans per year all due to speeding.

Now i want you to go round up the serial killer stats in the US for 1 year. find out how many people they have killed in a years time. shoot i'll let you add an additional 5 to 10 kills per person since we know they say the stats are probably off a bit.

and i bet you it will not amount to 12,000 people dead per year.or 1000 per month or 500 per month or anything close to that.

So now lets ask your question again.. If speeders that get speeding tickets were treated like mass murderers. would America be a much safer place with less deaths? the answer is YES.

you ask questions like "why would God let a child die." but while asking you speed and accidentally hit a SUV with a kid in the backseat that ends up dying. but you place blame on God. when its clearly YOU and I who did it. we're the ones speeding. are we not?

and we are the Good guys. the innocent ones. right? or are we as innocent, sinless as we want to believe?

So maybe if our justice system was properly setup like God's laws. Then just maybe you would not have to ask that question as often as you do about "why do innocent babies have to die?"

now with all that said i'm not saying speeders are the same as mass murderers. what i am saying is since you're not God and dont see the entire picture you dont know/understand how deadly what we consider a small sin can be. you just dont know.

Marinate on that before you respond ^^

 

[rapbeats]

In the hypotheticals, you know the person's life story.

But in terms of a reasonable application of law, you don't necessarily have to know a person's entire life story to know they should be punished for a crime ... even if they are trulyyy sorry about it



I don't really want your kids to thank the government. I was trying to show how ridiculous it would be to thank them. What should I give thanks to for air and why?

actually like the above poster said. you're losing it right here.

if you're a pedo and i catch you after you've pedo'ed 10 kids. but i've known you from birth. i know what you've been thru. i know you were diddled all throughout your childhood and no one did anything about it even after you told your parent(s). i mean what if it was your step pops, and you told your mother. but she didnt do a darn thing about it. you told other adults in your life and they didnt do a darn thing about it. you had a little sister and she was getting diddled by the same dude and no one would help her.

So you turn into a pedo and run the same cycle. how hard can i go on you when i know thats your life story? who was really at fault for you becoming what you've become? YOU or the adults in your life? its about 50/50. or it could be worse. more like 70/30. because serious childhood trauma can make you mentally ill. there's a reason girls that are diddled at a young age a lot of times turn out to be what some would call sluts. or man haters who end up jumping ship to the other side(yes this can happen also).

so should i punish said person the same way i would punish a person who did the same crime and i know their background was all peaches and creme yet they chose to do these things just cause? is that fair to give the exact same judgement?


you talk a lot about whats fair and what isnt fair.

reality is the fact that you may be mildly intelligent isnt fair when there is some other guy out there thats not as intelligent as you. no fault of his own. he was born with a certain batch of a dna that says he wont be as intelligent as you. you were born with a good batch of intelligence in your genes. what did you do to deserve your smarts? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. so when you go on to do bigger and better things in life while some other kid goes on to barely scrape by. all based on intelligence. how fair is that?

Jay and beyonce's daughter is rich already. what did she do to deserve all that doe? absolutely nothing. yet she's going to have more money then your kids. is that fair?

 

[ThaGlow]

Even if the Bible was a scam, why does it matter that I (or anyone else) gets their morals from a book? Have you never read a book and thought "Wow that was so profound, I just might apply these tactics to my everyday life..".


I know I'm in the wrong forum but that huge thread in The Locker Room about quick gems on women is a prime example. Or the best-selling book "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Wow, millions of people the world over lost at life because they realize they're not perfect and would like to better themselves..

Well do you believe your original post? Switch the names of God and Jesus to anyone else and that explanation is still just as believable.

 

[noon]

So now lets ask your question again.. If speeders that get speeding tickets were treated like mass murderers. would America be a much safer place with less deaths? the answer is YES.

Does punishing the small sinners equally with the big sinners affect the rest of us like putting speeders away makes America safer?

 

[rapbeats]

Does punishing the small sinners equally with the big sinners affect the rest of us like putting speeders away makes America safer?

effect us how? it sounds like you're going back to GOD in terms of how it is spiritually today. if thats the case then you're asking me if the all sin is sin format that God runs on. does that affect the rest of us like the analogy that mayo started. the answer is yes and no.

yes in the spiritual since. No in the physical. in the physical we dont see immediate punishment like you would if speeders that normally would get tickets now get what mass murders get that are caught.

and again you're looking at it the wrong way.

the reason that all sin is sin. no matter how big or small WE humans think each sin may be. because we humans a lot of times dont understand the bigger picture. i just proved that point to you with the stats on speeders and deaths vs serial killers.
we do not understand the power of a little white lie. we really think its not that bad. when in reality its a seed thats breeds destruction.

we've all seen those cartoons or sci-fi movies. where they show some small bean that falls into the ground and bam it starts growing and growing and growing and growing and growing and its some big giant evil plan/creature. well all by its lonesome its just a little seed. but its never all by its lonesome. you dont put a seed in the ground unless you plan on watering it(whether you know it or not). all seeds are watered. so the moment you plant that baby its out there waiting to grow and turn into more then you or i could imagine.

lets break it down real simple. you ever see people stealing the baskets from the grocery store for their own use? i use to do it back in the day when i use to live in the hood and i was a kid that had to walk to grocery store and walk to the laundry mat. i said forget that. i'm about to get one of these baskets. put my stuff in it and ease on down the street. it worked like a charm. i would hide the basket behind a bush by my house so no one else would snatch it.

little did i know with my child like mind. that the basket people would come to collect these baskets. and if they caught you with one in your yard. you could be fined a few hundred dollars. of course my parents were going to pay that fine since i was a non working child.

oh it gets worse. the older i got. i later found out that the more stolen baskets a store has to replace. the higher the prices of groceries are going to be(it may not be by much, but a little is still more then it was.) lastly, stealing those baskets means the ones that are left are being over used. which means someone will end up with that wack basket while grocery shopping. the one with that wheel thats stuck.

so me just making a little move for myself turns out to be a lot worse then i ever thought. this is how sin works. we do not really get how serious it is.

 

[NoMayo15]

Your hypothetical situation fails on so many levels. First of all, there is no hypothetical where you know another person's life story. Secondly, you're discussing laws while I'm talking about something much bigger than that. In your hypothetical situation, a human is making a judgement regarding another human who they obviously don'y know everything about. That's not the same as your creator, being well acquainted with all that you've done and judging you accordingly.

This is like saying no one can suggest a hypothetical where one assumes a god exists. A hypothetical situation is one in which the premise is assumed. If YOU are god, and you have full knowledge, would you make all crimes have equal punishment?

When I bring up laws, I'm making an analogy to what your god (according to you) does. Do you not think committing any sin once is punishable by hellfire?

But instead you only made yourself look ridiculous by comparing giving thanks to God for life to giving thanks to the government for allowing free trade.

Actually, you're right. At least we KNOW government has some hand in allowing for the sale of certain goods and services. We don't KNOW that God had a hand in creating life.

 

[NoMayo15]

lets address this.

What would happen if young adults and teens that normally get speeding tickets had to do jail time like mass murders? odds are speeding would go down to a point where it would be pretty much incalculable. How many lives would that save? (meaning, how many people lose their lives to speeders?"

Rightttttt... because murder almost NEVER happens today because of an almost guaranteed life sentence.


Sure speeding would go down, but it wouldn't eliminate it, and no one agrees that is a reasonable application of law. Why do you think God is morally right when you wouldn't apply the same moral guidelines for governing ourselves?

so lets do the math 1000 americans die every month. thats 12000 americans per year all due to speeding.

Now i want you to go round up the serial killer stats in the US for 1 year. find out how many people they have killed in a years time. shoot i'll let you add an additional 5 to 10 kills per person since we know they say the stats are probably off a bit.

and i bet you it will not amount to 12,000 people dead per year.or 1000 per month or 500 per month or anything close to that.

So now lets ask your question again.. If speeders that get speeding tickets were treated like mass murderers. would America be a much safer place with less deaths? the answer is YES.

rapbeats logic folks.

Why limit it to just serial murders? That's not what we're talking about. But according to Wiki, there were over 14 thousand intentional murders last year. People full well know the crime and possible punishments, and yet still kill people.

But again, I'm not asking whether or not stricter laws would result in less crime .... I think that makes sense. What I'm asking is IS IT RIGHT TO PUNISH SPEEDING THE SAME AS MURDER TO YOU? Please just answer this one question.

you ask questions like "why would God let a child die." but while asking you speed and accidentally hit a SUV with a kid in the backseat that ends up dying. but you place blame on God. when its clearly YOU and I who did it. we're the ones speeding. are we not?

So maybe if our justice system was properly setup like God's laws. Then just maybe you would not have to ask that question as often as you do about "why do innocent babies have to die?"

I did not once ask this. However, the argument is usually something like IF god is all-knowing, all powerful, and all-loving, could he not prevent bad things, or does he not care to prevent bad things? If he can't, then he's not all-powerful. If he doesn't want to, he's not all-loving. But again, I haven't made this argument. Mine revolves around the morality of the Christian system as a whole.

now with all that said i'm not saying speeders are the same as mass murderers. what i am saying is since you're not God and dont see the entire picture you dont know/understand how deadly what we consider a small sin can be. you just dont know.

So you DO think God's system of punishment is superior to man's?