Would Haiti have been better if their residents fought to the death? Was debt wrong?

CopiousX

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Today i woke up feeling especially conscious and thinking about the state of black people globally. :patrice:




I was thinking about all the imf and world bank loans that have mired the carribean, Africa , and black south america and i had an epiphany that all of this debt mirrors the state that that france put Haiti in way back in the 1800s.


To the best of my knowldge their country could not develop because so much of their productivity was being sapped by the silly liberation loan to France. This is eerily familiar to the state of places like nigeria or Kenya which today cannot use the revenues of their people to build their own airports or roads because 50% of govt revenue immediatly goes to servicing european debt or Kenya paying 70% of revenues. you simply cant runa funcitoning country like this :dahell:







So my ephiany is that this was exactly the same mess Haiti was in 1806 paying 40-80% of if its productivity for the privlege of being free. i get the feeling that this current leash on black nations was first test driven on Haiti. But how different would the world be if Haiti simply said no? Wouldnt that have stopped the precedent before the same chains of Haiti were exported to the rest of the black world?



Boyer assumed that the battle could not be won but years later we've seen that with Vietnamese or Afghanis , such a thing is doable. And more importantly im starting to think that this would have set a precident that such a tacticic would not work on other black people throughought the world. by precident im thinking of how the beligerent and often suicidal fighting of natives from the bight of Benin saved their whole region from the slave trade because cacs realized the fight was not worth it in that part of Africa. but im picturing something similar with the debt diplomacy to Europe and America.


What do yall think? would haiti have been better if they fought to the death? Would the rest of the black world have benefited from such a struggle?
 
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mbewane

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I see your point on priciple, but Vietnam and Afghanistan both got support from other countries, and really were battlefields between the East and the West. Haiti was literally surrounded by colonizers who fundamentally shared the same worldview. Even if they had fought to the death against France and won, the US or the UK would've just scooped in. I don't see any scenario in which imperial enslavers of the region dont step in to prey on a weakened Haiti.
 

WIA20XX

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The first question is whether they could sell their goods if they didn't pay "reparations". If I recall neither America nor Europe was going to buy Haitian sugar post revolution. Sugar was the oil of the time, and if they could sell to America, maybe the island could have prospered as much as other former sugar economies.. ?

The second question is if they could industrialize.
Most of the Caribbean and Latin America has failed (or rather intentionally crippled) when it comes to industrialization.

Most places can only trade commodities for finished goods. (Same dynamic between the UK and the American colonies) Alternatively they sell tourism.

It takes a lot of sugar and nature hikes for the country to buy the necessities of life. Botswana is going through that right now, with mined diamond prices cratering because of Chinese lab diamonds.

And I would be remiss if I didn't mention the bulk of the good farm land, mines, good beaches, and local businesses are owned by a relative handful of families, often with colonial roots. The same families that dominate the politics.

Same dynamic all over the formerly colonized world. Arguably the same dynamic in the world of the colonizers as well. Just not nearly as dire. But they're working on closing that gap.
 

get these nets

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No.

The conditions in 1791 and 1825 were much different.
Because of the severely brutal reality of slavery in St. Domingue, new enslaved people were brought in constantly to replace the ones who had been worked to death, or to the point that the plantation system could no longer use their labor.
Having a significant portion of the Black population who had been born free in the original home, played a big role in the ultimate success of the revolution. And by circumstance, people from warrior positions in Benin and other places were among the enslaved, which played a big role also.
St Domingue slavery was the worst in the Western Hemisphere, and as such the resistance matched that energy.


When the French War Machine came back for round 2, more than 20 years after independence, the climate and conditions among the people were different. The country had experienced internal turmoil, coups, splits, etc in that time period that hindered the chances of them uniting to defeat the Euro power again.

People second guess/monday morning QB the decision to pay the indemnity now, but it was extortion and the Haitian leader's recognition of the chances of calling France's bluff or being able to resist their firepower.
 

Diunx

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Fun fact about Haiti, when America was freedoing the carribean, they sent a bunch of young Hatians to help build Cuba, DR and Puerto Rico with the promise that Haiti would be next, those youngings set roots and got families in those places so they never went back to Haiti, after America abandoned the Caribbean Haiti had less young people and nothing to show for compared to other caribbean nations.

Even in the early years of the last century, other nations where calling out America for the racist shyt they were doing in Haiti during this occupation.

Also around this time Haiti started expending their gold reserves on paying off the France debt because they dared get freed from slavery.
 

Nkrumah Was Right

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I don’t think the coli has the capacity to discuss this.

BUT consider that the worst case scenario if Haiti continued fighting and lost is reenslavement. I can’t think of a worse fate.

We, as a race, would have never recovered. The psychological damage that a reenslaved Haiti would wreak…

Thank Shango for Dessalines!
 

Bleed The Freak

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Fun fact about Haiti, when America was freedoing the carribean, they sent a bunch of young Hatians to help build Cuba, DR and Puerto Rico with the promise that Haiti would be next, those youngings set roots and got families in those places so they never went back to Haiti, after America abandoned the Caribbean Haiti had less young people and nothing to show for compared to other caribbean nations.

Even in the early years of the last century, other nations where calling out America for the racist shyt they were doing in Haiti during this occupation.

Also around this time Haiti started expending their gold reserves on paying off the France debt because they dared get freed from slavery.

Citibank was started because they federal reserve was raided by the US government to create the Bank of New York
 

desjardins

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Haiti set the precedent for nations having to pay their former colonizers
I don't think Haiti had a chance at success without the indemnity fees for the same reasons they could liberate themselves to begin with. It was a isolated island nation. There were no international bodies to appeal to only European colonial powers with the same agendas. They would have been under a blockade with no trading partners until they came to heel
Another example of the 4D chess of having a racial hierarchy. Under any other circumstances, Haiti would have been praised as freedom fighters and simply because allies of Frances enemies but because they were black and all the other power nations of the time were also subjugating blacks it was never going to happen
 

Memorial Stadium Piru

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There were a couple things that made the Haitian Revolution successful

- During the first half of the revolution, French government officials were too busy getting their heads chopped off by peasants to worry about a distant slave colony

- The US only had about 300-400K Africans brought over here. The Southern states went into overdrive breeding slaves after the transatlantic slave trade got banned in 1807.

90% OF HAITI'S POPULATION WAS SLAVES. Another % was free mulattoes who were tired of second class treatment. Haiti was always a ticking timebomb tbh

- The French had an opportunity to make concessions and end tue revolt early. The problem is they were so racist that they refused to acknowledge blacks as legitimate negotiating partners. The French outright refused and got bodied

- Slavery in Haiti was so brutal that they had to constantly keep importing new slaves because so many were dying. When the revolt kicked off, almost 70% of the slaves in Haiti were born in Africa. At the time in the late 18th century, there were civil wars going on in both the Kongo Kingdom and Oyo Empire. A lot of these slaves being brought in were already hardened warriors

- Napoleon finally consolidated power & sent forces to Haiti. There were some c00ns that actually welcomed the French forces, the problem is the French saw them all as violent subhuman savages and start executing every black person they see. The French then get wiped out by tropical disease and guerilla warfare.

If Haiti declined to pay France back, the French would have just blockades the island and they'd still be poor. I don't think the French would have invaded as they would have gotten wiped out by tropical disease again
 
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