Anthony Davis vs Andre Drummond....which big would you rather build around?

[Guess Who]

what are we playing 1 on 1 or 5 on 5? Sounds like you're playing 1 on 1, if you're checking in at the top of the key, there's no way you're going to back me down 11 straight times and scoring. You probably are not even in shape, you'll be gassed on point 3 or 4.

The way you talk shyt, I can tell you're the type that likes to back down with leverage, I will use that leverage against you and pull the forearm trick (put the forearm in your back with pressre, let you feel the forearm pressure while you bakc down and when you back down hard, pull the forearm away and watch you stubmle) and call you for a few travels; plus I know you have sloppy high handles probably carry the ball when you back down too - so i'll knock the ball out and make you start over at the top of the key.

Once you're tired of the defense I put on you, i'll use simple dribble moves to get to spots on the perimeter where either I hit shots or if I miss I have the opportunity to out hustle you for rebounds and easy put backs.

LOL! You're right, I'm in terrible shape. But I got heart like Iverson--tired or not, there ain't no quit in me, I'ma gut it out son.

But if we playing 1 on 1, I'll just beat you all day with my lightning quick first step, and then when you give me room, I'll drive hard and pull up for mid-range jumpers where I'm money--and if you get hip to that, then I'll hit you with hesitation moves...or just take you into the post. My arsenal of moves is three pages long nikka. Wikipedia couldn't summarize that shyt.

And once I feel that forearm in my back, phew, I'ma use YOUR own leverage against you and hit you with that drop stop, and set it up by forcing you to favour one side and then go the other. You gonna be left off-balance, befuddled, watching me get easy layups all day nikka.

And you ain't out-hustling me for shyt. I'm crazy fast and athletic. And you damn right my handle is undisciplined. Who needs a tight handle when you're super quick and fast as fukk?

5 on 5...my superior vision and passing ability allows me to drive and kick, drive and create passing lanes for my teammates, or get assists out of the post. My arsenal is just TOO DEEP!!

 

[7oclock]

LOL! You're right, I'm in terrible shape. But I got heart like Iverson--tired or not, there ain't no quit in me, I'ma gut it out son.

But if we playing 1 on 1, I'll just beat you all day with my lightning quick first step, and then when you give me room, I'll drive hard and pull up for mid-range jumpers where I'm money--and if you get hip to that, then I'll hit you with hesitation moves...or just take you into the post. My arsenal of moves is three pages long nikka. Wikipedia couldn't summarize that shyt.

And once I feel that forearm in my back, phew, I'ma use YOUR own leverage against you and hit you with that drop stop, and set it up by forcing you to favour one side and then go the other. You gonna be left off-balance, befuddled, watching me get easy layups all day nikka.

And you ain't out-hustling me for shyt. I'm crazy fast and athletic. And you damn right my handle is undisciplined. Who needs a tight handle when you're super quick and fast as fukk?

5 on 5...my superior vision and passing ability allows me to drive and kick, drive and create passing lanes for my teammates, or get assists out of the post. My arsenal is just TOO DEEP!!

lol, I thought you were a big man, you make it sound like you're Sean Livingston back in 2002.

 

[Guess Who]

lol, I thought you were a big man, you make it sound like you're Sean Livingston back in 2002.

I'm versatile. ;)

LOL nah, I said I played in the post growing up, based on my height (usually tallest or one of the tallest on my team). My natural position is point guard.

 

[Malta]

don't get me wrong.

This is what I'm saying.

Usually when a player is in highschool/college they have started to get a base skillset, you have your strengths and weaknesses - throughtout the NBA you have a natural progression to shore up weaknesses and improve strengths.


Bosh's post game was evident at GTECH - and natural progression, maturity, and offseason work has him where he is now

Drummond did not have the same base post game - so for him to all of a sudden get a post game, an elite/effective one at that would be a very weird progression. Again, not saying it cannot happen but he would be like him shooting 30% and then all of a sudden shooting 90% from FTs. If you're a poor FT shooter in college/hs more than likely you will only be an average FT shooter in the NBA - that's not a 100% rule but at least 95% of the time. And shooting is a lot easier than post game, because at least if you form and consistency you can increase averages. Post game requires a few additional skillsets - and I don't see Drummond possessing the necessary ones.

Not sure if I'm making my point clearer.

I disagree about getting the ball in a position to score and touch. I do think he's agile but I also see him scoring on lobs, put backs, and general drive dish dunks (my 3Ds). The advanced shooting stats for this year aren't available yet but last year , he shot less than 30% when he wasn't dunking the ball ( that includes 30% on anything between 3ft and 5ft). That does not bode well for a supposed post player.

You're only looking at stats and not actually watching him, he does have additional skillsets that can be transfered and worked into a post game. He thought of himself as a faceup PF or tweener SF in HS, this big muthafukka would often lead the break and has a handle and extremely sound feet. The two biggest things you look for when trying to teach someone the post is hands, and coordination he has both in spades. His coordination and footwork is there, it just has to be honed, we're not talking about DeAndre Jordan here. He's already shown strides this year and has been hitting a jumphook from time to time, as well learning how to properly use his body. As a matter of fact this is from the other night -

Drummond even showcased a few post moves, which led to Cheeks calling a few plays for the big man.

“I remarked he can probably be our best postup player because when he catches the ball he makes it easy now,” Cheeks said. “Before he was doing two or three different things with the ball. Now, he kind of just takes his time. He has one shot, his jump hook. I think as he gets more comfortable with shooting the ball under the basket with a post up move then you run more plays for him.”

Expecting a finished product in the first year he's starting his insane, most centers with the exception of Shaq don't even hit their stride until 23-25 years old, he has 3-5 years to build on his body and his post game. Don't look at the dunks in this video, look at the coordination & ball handling, and ask yourself when the last time you saw someone 6'11" 285lbs doing those things.




The base for him developing a post game is all there, he has to put in the work for it though.

 

[7oclock]

You're only looking at stats and not actually watching him, he does have additional skillsets that can be transfered and worked into a post game. He thought of himself as a faceup PF or tweener SF in HS, this big muthafukka would often lead the break and has a handle and extremely sound feet. The two biggest things you look for when trying to teach someone the post is hands, and coordination he has both in spades. His coordination and footwork is there, it just has to be honed, we're not talking about DeAndre Jordan here. He's already shown strides this year and has been hitting a jumphook from time to time, as well learning how to properly use his body. As a matter of fact this is from the other night -



Expecting a finished product in the first year he's starting his insane, most centers with the exception of Shaq don't even hit their stride until 23-25 years old, he has 3-5 years to build on his body and his post game. Don't look at the dunks in this video, look at the coordination & ball handling, and ask yourself when the last time you saw someone 6'11" 285lbs doing those things.




The base for him developing a post game is all there, he has to put in the work for it though.

great mixtape, I see why you're high on him but - I still don't see any post skills. You contrast to a legit post scoring talent



not the same highlights...not a bunch of spectacular dunks, but you see evidence of actual footwork in the post, actuals move, ability to finish 3ft out with both hands. I don't see that in Drummonds game - like you said though he still young and it's not like he's a robot. But the post game is very different kind of coordination that running, jumping, and finishing alley oops.

I look forward to potentially eating crows in a few years but I really don't think it will come to that point.

 

[Propaganda]

I'm just saying there are more players in the Davis mold than drummond. There are a handful of legit C in league. Other than dwight, none can be dominate. There are a dozen or more good pf with similar skill sets to davis. Not exactly the same player but bosh, aldridge, west, love, randolph, monroe, lee, and a few more all can play on davis level. Other than dwight Hibbert Lopez cousins maybe Noah. drummond will dominate most nights and no one can stop him when he realizes that

who cares if they're in the same mold though. you can say that for almost anybody. jr rider "was in the same mold" as mj but he didn't do shyt. kobe bryant "was in the same mold" as mj and he's an all-time great. how guys perform is what matters and anthony davis has been performing extremely well so far and he's just a baby in this league.

davis' skillset isn't even developed yet. and while i disagree with some of those names, let's say they all are on davis' level...doesn't that say a lot about unibrow? he's barely scratched the surface of his potential, he hasn't even had a full nba season's worth of games under his belt and we're comparing him to those guys already?

come on. he's the type of guy that can be an all-time great at his position.

 

[Malta]

great mixtape, I see why you're high on him but - I still don't see any post skills. You contrast to a legit post scoring talent



not the same highlights...not a bunch of spectacular dunks, but you see evidence of actual footwork in the post, actuals move, ability to finish 3ft out with both hands. I don't see that in Drummonds game - like you said though he still young and it's not like he's a robot. But the post game is very different kind of coordination that running, jumping, and finishing alley oops.

I look forward to potentially eating crows in a few years but I really don't think it will come to that point.

I've posted about Jahlil Okafor many times, he is also called the most skilled big man prospect since Tim Duncan, so using him as a contrast is kind of silly. You're taking the prospect with the most advanced post game in basically 20 years and trying to use it as a point against Drummond

Dwight's corny ass had even less skills than Andre when he came into the league, he got that 1 on 1 teaching from Ewing and could score for himself on a primitive level. Andre has better footwork and a better touch around the rim than him, and he's being taught how to play with his back to the basket as opposed to a faceup game like Ewing taught Dwight.

Players can learn how to play in the post, even at a late stage, it's all about effort and work ethic. He has the coordination, touch around the rim, hands and the footwork to do so, and the lower body strength not to get pushed out of the paint which is what happens to Dwight/Jordan/McGee. And most importantly, he's already showing progress and going to the moves he's learned. There will be a lot of ups and downs for him, but he has years to refine his post game....

 

[7oclock]

I've posted about Jahlil Okafor many times, he is also called the most skilled big man prospect since Tim Duncan, so using him as a contrast is kind of silly. You're taking the prospect with the most advanced post game in basically 20 years and trying to use it as a point against Drummond

Dwight's corny ass had even less skills than Andre when he came into the league, he got that 1 on 1 teaching from Ewing and could score for himself on a primitive level. Andre has better footwork and a better touch around the rim than him, and he's being taught how to play with his back to the basket as opposed to a faceup game like Ewing taught Dwight.

Players can learn how to play in the post, even at a late stage, it's all about effort and work ethic. He has the coordination, touch around the rim, hands and the footwork to do so, and the lower body strength not to get pushed out of the paint which is what happens to Dwight/Jordan/McGee. And most importantly, he's already showing progress and going to the moves he's learned. There will be a lot of ups and downs for him, but he has years to refine his post game....

Well the point is you can see the big difference in post coordination (Okafor) vs run/jump coordination (Drummond), which is what you're trying to displace into thinking Drummond can translate it into the post. I'm saying it's doubtful - I do not see the touch around the rim....I haven't seen it, his mock draft files say he lacks it, his stats show 30% and less from 3 feet and out. Nothing I've seen or read supports this touch and post footwork you keep talking about. I don't think there was one post up in the highlight you posted...

Even a basic post game - meaning a hook or a drop step - would up his averages by at least 8 ppg. currently he's basically doing what he per 36 was as a rookie! This could also be due to Greg Monroe being there...

 

[Malta]

Well the point is you can see the big difference in post coordination (Okafor) vs run/jump coordination (Drummond), which is what you're trying to displace into thinking Drummond can translate it into the post. I'm saying it's doubtful - I do not see the touch around the rim....I haven't seen it, his mock draft files say he lacks it, his stats show 30% and less from 3 feet and out. Nothing I've seen or read supports this touch and post footwork you keep talking about. I don't think there was one post up in the highlight you posted...

Even a basic post game - meaning a hook or a drop step - would up his averages by at least 8 ppg. currently he's basically doing what he per 36 was as a rookie! This could also be due to Greg Monroe being there...

Actually, with the exception of blocks, every number in his per 36 has increased, which is usually not the case for young players. He's become more efficient than last year despite playing more minutes which is pretty much counter of what normally happens. You're into advanced stats, his PER went from 21.6 last year to 23.8 this year Usually when a younger player increases their minutes, their production per 36 drops, nevermind the fact he went from playing against 2nd units to now posting better numbers against starters.

Why are you talking about mock drafts? He's in the 2nd year of his career, people who have watched him play all say the same thing, great hands and a soft touch around the rim. His coach is saying he could be their best post player soon, even though Greg Monroe is on the team with him, yet you're talking about mocks and his % from 3 feet out, the rub is that nobody can stop him from getting within 3 feet of the rim

 

[Propaganda]

yeah, i don't see why drummond can't develop a decent post game just because he wasn't kevin mchale coming in.

the guy has sick hands, a nice touch (with both hands) and can get deep position. just having those abilities give him a big advantage. plus he's got coordination, he's not tripping over his own feet out there. learning a few post moves isn't gonna be the problem, there's no reason he can't.

the only question is can he get comfortable (and confident) enough in the post to just give it to him on the block and expect a score.

 

[wire28]

my mans does not fukk with Dre in any way, shape or form

 

[Malta]

my mans does not fukk with Dre in any way, shape or form

Yeah, I didn't think anyone disliked this kid, other than the people that said he'd be a bust.

 

[7oclock]

Actually, with the exception of blocks, every number in his per 36 has increased, which is usually not the case for young players. He's become more efficient than last year despite playing more minutes which is pretty much counter of what normally happens. You're into advanced stats, his PER went from 21.6 last year to 23.8 this year Usually when a younger player increases their minutes, their production per 36 drops, nevermind the fact he went from playing against 2nd units to now posting better numbers against starters.

Why are you talking about mock drafts? He's in the 2nd year of his career, people who have watched him play all say the same thing, great hands and a soft touch around the rim. His coach is saying he could be their best post player soon, even though Greg Monroe is on the team with him, yet you're talking about mocks and his % from 3 feet out, the rub is that nobody can stop him from getting within 3 feet of the rim

he improved his ppg by 1 point

anyway, i'm not saying he sucks - the point on the per 36 is that if he had developed a post game he would have increased his scoring averages on some basis per 36 (not 1 point).

You keep saying this soft touch and post footwork - and there's no evidence of this. NONE. the countless of evaluattors, nbadraft, draftexpress...That's the point I'm making - only you are saying this stuff. You can't sell me on this because he can dunk the ball and catch alley oops Wilt - you gonna have to show me an actual CONSISTENT post move at some point in time.

what year will this happen Wilt? Give me a year , because you're not committing to year 2 it seems like even though he was working all summer with Hakeem and Rasheed Wallace.

Dunking with either hand does not count as touch with both hands either - if we are talking about post play!! cmon!!

 

[Malta]

he improved his ppg by 1 point

anyway, i'm not saying he sucks - the point on the per 36 is that if he had developed a post game he would have increased his scoring averages on some basis per 36 (not 1 point).

You keep saying this soft touch and post footwork - and there's no evidence of this. NONE. the countless of evaluattors, nbadraft, draftexpress...That's the point I'm making - only you are saying this stuff. You can't sell me on this because he can dunk the ball and catch alley oops Wilt - you gonna have to show me an actual CONSISTENT post move at some point in time.

what year will this happen Wilt? Give me a year , because you're not committing to year 2 it seems like even though he was working all summer with Hakeem and Rasheed Wallace.

Other than Anthony Davis, show me one other rookie that has improved across the board in per 36 & PER, you can't use advanced stats one second then try to throw them out when they show Drummond has made progress everywhere. You don't even watch the dude play, everyone and their momma talks about his touch in the paint, his footwork is sound, is he the dream of course not but the base to get a good post game is there. You keep citing some stat from last year as your basis. Erik Spoelstra even talked about his improvement -

“That’s what you see with young players sometimes,” Spoelstra said. “They come back one year and they look different … and he is making dramatic strides in his improvement.

“Now, I think he is getting better rhythm and more offense. He’s a load in the paint, and somebody that size, you don’t see often that kind of athletic ability.”

Maybe he's imagining things too

You mean the same talent evaluators that said Thomas Robinson would be a better pro than him, we talking about those guys? Give you a year, he's already showing improvement in the post this season, everyone in this thread except for you has seen it, apparently we're all seeing things. Wait, so he was supposed to come into this year and be Kevin McHale, hitting dudes with up and unders and dream shakes everywhere Also there's no actual verified word on whether he worked with Hakeem or not, he's been working with Sheed for 2 months, TWO MONTHS.

 

[7oclock]

Other than Anthony Davis, show me one other rookie that has improved across the board in per 36 & PER, you can't use advanced stats one second then try to throw them out when they show Drummond has made progress everywhere. You don't even watch the dude play, everyone and their momma talks about his touch in the paint, his footwork is sound, is he the dream of course not but the base to get a good post game is there. You keep citing some stat from last year as your basis. Erik Spoelstra even talked about his improvement -



Maybe he's imagining things too

You mean the same talent evaluators that said Thomas Robinson would be a better pro than him, we talking about those guys? Give you a year, he's already showing improvement in the post this season, everyone in this thread except for you has seen it, apparently we're all seeing things. Wait, so he was supposed to come into this year and be Kevin McHale, hitting dudes with up and unders and dream shakes everywhere Also there's no actual verified word on whether he worked with Hakeem or not, he's been working with Sheed for 2 months, TWO MONTHS.

It's fine to use PER and 36...but PER isn't about post moves. And 36 is just a normalization, not necessarily advanced stats. And the point of me point 36 is that if he indeed improved his game to include post, I would expect an increase in his scoring averages (normalized) YOY by a little more than 1 point. NO one is throwing them out, I quoted them and I'm using them to show there's been neglible increase to his scoring averages.

I haven't watched him play every single game this year, let me guess you have and you've seen him do this miraculous post moves.


I'm not going to go back and forth with you on anything other than post moves and nothing you're posting is disproving what I'm saying about POST moves. U can post all this crap about his footwork, dribbling, catching ability, Erik Spo talking about how good of a center he is, or fellow posters saying they've seen him operate in the post - but in reality his POST game is non-functional at this point and I don't see him improving to the level of dominance you're trying to say he can achieve.

Anything beyond POST game, I won't argue you about because I think he'll be a good center, maybe great - but he won't average 20+ PPG unless he develops a real back to the basket post game and he's quite horrible at this point from what I've seen.