The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[qashif]

See -

The fact that you laugh at Lowry's defensive impact tells me you don't watch Raptors games at all. He's one of the better defensive PGs we have in this league.

i'm laughing at the idea that his defensive impact could make up the difference between him and Kidd. not even close

 

[TBdaGhost]

he had 10 pts tonight

Oh shyt. He must realy suck then

 

[seemorecizzy]

Yo why is this thread so long

Anyone who thinks Lowry is better than Kidd should be banned from the sports section.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Some of you nikkas


Quite possibly some of the dumbest shyt ive heard all day are in one thread

Explain to me what's dumb about that? Those Nets squads wouldn't be near the top of the Eastern conference today, so explain how the fukk Kidd would be an MVP candidate?



A team with Kidd as their best player ain't winning shyt in today's game.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

All players have flaws, but some work around them and overcome them like Kidd did. Kidd was a very smart player, something @Malta and @Zbo's Deep Thoughts do not give enough credit for. Jordan was an atrocious 3 point shooter too, early in his career.

Don't tell me what I give and don't give credit for. You could use the same argument for someone like Rubio or Rondo for being "very smart" - yet it doesn't mean shyt in the grand scheme of things when they're a detriment to their team's offense, or don't have the similar impact as other PGs in the league.

They also seem to ignore how Kidd paced his team on both ends in crunch time, how he got key steals and deflections because of his timing, and how he effectively found so many open cutters. THe question isn't how his team compared to the league at the time, but how his team would have done without him.

Stop it.

I've watched more Kidd's games than 99.9% of this board, on tape and in person. I know his game in and out. I know what he was good at and I know what he wasn't good at. But most importantly I know exactly how he influenced/impacted the game, and it certainly wasn't like all this romanticizing I see going on in this board.

 

[cKondomsucK6]

And that's fair enough to a degree, but you must take into account that he's playing against arguably the greatest Eastern conference team of the last 20+ years and he's still dealing with an injury - Kidd didn't play a team as good as this during those Finals runs he had. We've already seen Lowry in the back end of the ECSF against the Heat where he was the best player over those last handful of games, so to call him a mental midget isn't all that true. He's shown he can rise to the occasion this postseason.


I've see Kidd struggle against worse teams than this and mentally fold. So don't act like he doesn't have his fair share of scars either.

the last 20 years wtf

bulls ?
heat ?
celtics ?
pistons ?

 

[Tunez]

Imagine those Nets teams without kid nikkas owe millions of dollars to J Kidd... man even Melo owes Kidd for that 50 win knick team

Jr smith owes Kidd too

 

[cKondomsucK6]

i) The margin in their defensive impact is minimal - especially considering what version of Kidd you want to use
ii) Lowry doesn't set up guys as good as Rondo did either, yet he still manages to run a more effective offense than both of them. That's not to mention that Lowry is an incredible playmaker, he's severely underrated in that department.

jason kidd was first team all defense

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

the last 20 years wtf

bulls ?
heat ?
celtics ?
pistons ?

My bad.

I should have said since 2000, rather than 20+ years (it was to illustrate that this Cavs team is better than any EC team that Kidd faced during his Finals runs). I said arguably, meaning they have an argument.

 

[cKondomsucK6]

My bad.

I should have said since 2000, rather than 20+ years. I said arguably, meaning they have an argument.

if they win

 

[Hammer]

Oh shyt. He must realy suck then

yup and 8 pts in game 1.

 

[Juggalo Fred]

And @Malta would be right. This version of Lowry is better than Kidd ever was.

 

[Art Barr]

@Malta


Chu tweaked't breh.


Art Barr

 

[Leonard Washington]

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You are dead wrong about this one.

I'm not dead wrong about this at all.

You are comparing Kidd to Lowry but citing comparisons of teams without normalizing for other factors.

Here's the thing, a team's offensive ranking is mainly based through its main ball-handler/scorer (like you can attribute a team's defensive ranking to the defensive anchor), and yes while environmental, personnel and style factors need to be weighed into the equation - it gives you a general idea of what impact they had. If Kidd was as great of a playmaker and difference maker as you seem to think he was, his team wouldn't have offenses that were below average to the worst in a league in arguably the worst ever offensive era. Especially since Kidd was allowed to basically freelance his way through games.

Just to put this into perspective -

Even despite the Nets playing at the 9th fastest pace during 2002, they still had a comparable offense to the Rockets who played at the second to slowest pace - with players like Mobley, Cato, Kenny Thomas and Moochie (comparable personnel to the Nets) playing heavy minutes with Francis as the main-ballhandler.

Then you are accusing me of "misremembering" .. based on what exactly?

That Kidd ran "fluid" offenses - that right there tells me you aren't qualified to speak on his game because you're just regurgitating casual fan talking points.

You don't get to write the conclusion and expect people to accept the facts to support it. You also do not get to accuse me of overrating past players.

I do when you say things that are blatantly false and act like they're true.

If anything, you are going off the deep end the other way by systematically rejecting past players.

Nah I just rank/value players accurately and reasonably as I possibly can.

Here is what I observed of Prime Kidd and the Nets: KIdd could not shoot, but he found open shooters and slashers. He controlled the pace of the game which was INSTRUMENTAL to their defense being effective. It was similar to how the 2001 Lakers defense was dependent on Pace, which was dependent on feeding the post. Kidd also made key steals, key passes, key deflections in crunch time. He was a highly talented player with a glaring flaw that he worked around..

This same argument can be made for the offensively-inept PGs of today. This doesn't tell me anything other than you don't know how to properly evaluate talent and impact. When it comes to main ball-handlers/option scorers is their ability to generate offense for their team in an efficent manner - not how good of a passer they are, how smart they are or how good they are at finding players in the post/on the break/off-screens.

This is the problem with this board, they look too much at aesthetics of how the game is suppose to be played and not the results.

He was a highly talented player with a glaring flaw that he worked around.

He did, and that is down to his BBIQ and the fact he was fortunate to play in a horrific offensive era and given a defensive-orientated team to run. He wouldn't be looked at in the same manner if he was playing during this era.

NOw, if you want to argue Tony Parker is greater than Kidd, i would agree. But you are talking about Kyle fukking Lowry. His own mother wouldn't claim he was better than prime Kidd. At least with @Malta, he is thematically consistent? He does not like high usage rate PG's. You, on the other hand seem to favor offensive efficacy without explaining or accounting for a simple fact: The Raptors offense is fukking retarded. You can point to the overall numbers all you want, but watching Lowry and Derozan taking turns on iso's is effective offense?.

Those Nets' offenses were WORSE, a lot WORSE - both aesthetically and statistically. I don't think you seem to understand. Lowry was more of an offensive threat this season, than Kidd ever was (greater scorer and more efficent - this version of Lowry averaged 3.3 more points on the same amount of shots at Kidd's peak as a scorer) to go with playmaking that had his team generating 117 per 100 posessions while he was on court (prior to his injury last month).

Additionally, your claim is not supported by your cited information because you have failed to delineate causality between your view of Kidd and the numbers you are citing. If you are comparing individual players, what is the proper basis for comparison? Team Success? Individual stats? VORP? PER? YOu have not set any foundation for your claim.

See above and

A proper basis for comparison would be to weigh their individual numbers (mostly efficiency), team role/possession rate and how they influenced/impacted their team's offense against the tape; which would mean to go over a generous amount of early 00s Nets games and Raptors' games from this season.