2016 HL WPOY Nomination Thread

David_TheMan

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"The Laffer Curve, by the way, was not invented by me. For example, Ibn Khaldun, a 14th century philosopher, wrote in his work The Muqaddimah: "It should be known that at the beginning of the dynasty, taxation yields a large revenue from small assessments. At the end of the dynasty, taxation yields a small revenue from large assessments."



Arthur Laffer, The Laffer Curve: Past, Present, and Future.

:russell:

You are right it wasn't invented by Laffer, I was wrong, he just popularized it in modern economics thanks.
Guess it also proves Supplly-Side wasn't based on Keynes tinkering as well, since it was largely off the Laffer Curve which as you've shown predates Keynes himself.
 

MrSinnister

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You are right it wasn't invented by Laffer, I was wrong, he just popularized it in modern economics thanks.
Guess it also proves Supplly-Side wasn't based on Keynes tinkering as well, since it was largely off the Laffer Curve which as you've shown predates Keynes himself.
No, they melded the Laffer Curve theory with Supply Side economics to give it more credibility. Supply side is the b*stard of Keynesian. Keep arguing tho. :coffee:
 

David_TheMan

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No, they melded the Laffer Curve theory with Supply Side economics to give it more credibility. Supply side is the b*stard of Keynesian. Keep arguing tho. :coffee:

Supply-side economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Historical origins
Robert Mundell
Supply-side economics developed during the 1970s in response to Keynesian economic policy, and in particular the failure of demand management to stabilize Western economies during the stagflation of the 1970s.[14] It drew on a range of non-Keynesian economic thought, particularly the Chicago School and Neo-Classical School.[15][16] Bruce Bartlett, an advocate of supply-side economics, traced the school of thought's intellectual descent from the philosophers Ibn Khaldun and David Hume, satirist Jonathan Swift, political economist Adam Smith, and even United States 'Founding Father' Alexander Hamilton.[17]

However, what most separates supply-side economics as a modern phenomenon is its argument in favor of a low tax rate for primarily collective and notably working-class reasons, rather than traditional ideological ones. Classical Liberals opposed taxes because they opposed government, taxation being the latter's most obvious form. Their claim was that each man had a right to himself and his property and therefore taxation was immoral and of questionable legal grounding.[18] Supply-side economists, on the other hand, argued that the alleged collective benefit (i.e. jobs) provided the main impetus for tax cuts.

As in classical economics, supply-side economics proposed that production or supply is the key to economic prosperity and that consumption or demand is merely a secondary consequence. Early on this idea had been summarized in Say's Law of economics, which states: "A product is no sooner created, than it, from that instant, affords a market for other products to the full extent of its own value." John Maynard Keynes, the founder of Keynesianism, summarized Say's Law as "supply creates its own demand." He turned Say's Law on its head in the 1930s by declaring that demand creates its own supply.[19]

In 1978, Jude Wanniski published The Way the World Works, in which he laid out the central thesis of supply-side economics and detailed the failure of high tax-rate progressive income tax systems and U.S. monetary policy under Nixon in the 1970s. Wanniski advocated lower tax rates and a return to some kind of gold standard, similar to the 1944–1971 Bretton Woods System that Nixon abandoned.[citation needed]

In 1983, economist Victor Canto, a disciple of Arthur Laffer, published The Foundations of Supply-Side Economics.[20] This theory focuses on the effects of marginal tax rates on the incentive to work and save, which affect the growth of the "supply side" or what Keynesians call potential output. While the latter focus on changes in the rate of supply-side growth in the long run, the "new" supply-siders often promised short-term results.[citation needed]
 

MrSinnister

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David_TheMan

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MrSinnister

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Didn't leave it out, its literally in the post you quoted. That said in response doesn't mean it was based off of Keynesian, you do understand that don't you?
It's the right wing version if Keynesian, dressed up to try to look original. It's not. I've already explained the difference in the 2 theories. The thing is still, one worked, and the other didn't.

While we're still here, we need to address the 80's situation. Again, if anything like what you're trying to push was actually implemented irl, the 80's would have been a permanent boon for the working class. Instead, even with all the union busting, it was the real start of the serfdom age. Why do you think that was??

:coffee:
 

JahFocus CS

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Act like Keynesianism is the main driver of booms and busts when shyt has been going on since the 1800s :russ:

It's endemic to capitalism :mjlol: doesn't matter which school you choose (except state capitalism like that practiced in the USSR actually :ohhh: I don't think they ever had a recession or depression, technically speaking).
 

MrSinnister

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I doubt the 80's needed wages to be lower than 3.35, so that obviously is not a reason and people should have been getting the fair share of the boom in businesses started, tax rates gutted, and tremendous revenues. Why did it bust instead and have a decade long fallout?
 

David_TheMan

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It's the right wing version if Keynesian, dressed up to try to look original. It's not. I've already explained the difference in the 2 theories. The thing is still, one worked, and the other didn't.

While we're still here, we need to address the 80's situation. Again, if anything like what you're trying to push was actually implemented irl, the 80's would have been a permanent boon for the working class. Instead, even with all the union busting, it was the real start of the serfdom age. Why do you think that was??

:coffee:

Keynesian isn't really a right win or left wing designation, more appropriate would designating it as a statist friendly economic system.
That said you say what you want, you haven't proved it, and everything you've said about supply side, has been proven incorrect.

Keynesian inspired economics failed in the 70s, in that link I posted it told you the specific failure, stagflation in the 70s, and its failing today with the monetarist boom bust shyt that re-emerged with a vengence with Alan Greenspan after the supply-side failure in the 80s.

There is no 80s situation to address, NYC min wage is irrelevant to the discussion.
What do the 80s have to do with min wage laws, nothing, you literally are just making up things in your head and trying to apply them to me with no logical connection at all. Its pretty strange.

Union membership in the US started before the 80s, and 80s didn't even acclerate the level of decline.
iY_pAUecXVe8.png
 

MrSinnister

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Act like Keynesianism is the main driver of booms and busts when shyt has been going on since the 1800s :russ:

It's endemic to capitalism :mjlol: doesn't matter which school you choose (except state capitalism like that practiced in the USSR actually :ohhh: I don't think they ever had a recession or depression, technically speaking).
Keynesian has the right incentive structure, but isn't perfect when you have near peak employment and an uncontrollable price of a commodity that oil was. Oil killed Keynesian.
 

Saka

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(1)You are false, demand can exist even at if currently the ability to manufacture at a profitable rate because lets say consumers will not be able to easily afford it or afford it at all. That demand in itself and the unaffordability will usually lead companies that can take a loss into investing in a field for eventual growth opportunities when it can become profitable. We saw this with automobiles, before the age of mass production and other manufactured goods before mass production. The demand was there it took a while before the technology could catch up and deliver at a profitable rate.

so your contention has been proven to be false in reality, on top of that you've yet to disprove my contention (2)that its the market and its demand for a good that grows the economy, not jobs, you've yet to even refute the point about workers and wooden spoons that i gave you.

so we know jobs do not increase an economy, we know jobs do not spur demand, but come as a result of demand. All of which has no connection your argument about increase in wages increasing the economy, money velocity isn't a sign of economic growth. (3)GDP is a very poor caluclation for economic health as well.

Austrian economics is a regimented system of economics in the classical sense that has been around since the 1800s and is present today. To try to handwave it away as fanatical when there is a large body of academic and peer reviewed work behind it shows you have no idea about the school, so its better to probably just stay quiet about that, because you are out of your depth.

(4)As for monopolies, funny the word specifically was created with regard to government privelege, the opposite of the free market. Cronyism has shown to exist in socialist economic systems like corporatism, its hard to have cronyism in a market unregulated by the government. You claim it cannibalizes itself, yet we have ample evidence of socialist alternatives in fact doing what you put on capitalism, seems to me you are confused

Desire for a good/service can exist at any price point but its not a REAL demand unless the consumer has the money to act on it.... Demand and jobs have a symbiotic relationship in terms of growing the market, like a poster said earlier this is literally us arguing the chicken or the egg, because one is a function of the other. What we do know though is that the more money the consumer has the more desires he can convert into REAL demand, increasing consumption drives economic growth, that is the argument for increase in wages. I don't care what you personally feel about GDP but it is the de facto metric by which we measure economies.

Also, the era of mass production is a bad anecdote to prove your point: it made each individual unit of labor much more efficient by increasing its productivity, which meant the value that labor returned in the form of wages was increased, this is where their eventual growth opportunities laid, since the consumers of the market now had a surplus of value to consume MORE = growth.

The last paragraph is just word vomit, none of what you said is true. A monopoly is a market where their is only a sole producer of a commodity, this is essentially the ideal that a business strives for in a capitalist free market system. Cronyism would run rampant if the government had no regulatory authority, the free market inevitably leads to
corporatocracy....socialism ≠ corporatism :francis:
 

MrSinnister

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Keynesian isn't really a right win or left wing designation, more appropriate would designating it as a statist friendly economic system.
That said you say what you want, you haven't proved it, and everything you've said about supply side, has been proven incorrect.

Keynesian inspired economics failed in the 70s, in that link I posted it told you the specific failure, stagflation in the 70s, and its failing today with the monetarist boom bust shyt that re-emerged with a vengence with Alan Greenspan after the supply-side failure in the 80s.

There is no 80s situation to address, NYC min wage is irrelevant to the discussion.
What do the 80s have to do with min wage laws, nothing, you literally are just making up things in your head and trying to apply them to me with no logical connection at all. Its pretty strange.

Union membership in the US started before the 80s, and 80s didn't even acclerate the level of decline.
iY_pAUecXVe8.png
That chart just justified Keynesian economics. People didn't really need unions as the economy worked itself out with fair wages built on overall demand.
 
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