2020 Democratic Primary Thread: Focus on House & Senate races

[King Kreole]

That's fine and that is to be expected. Hence the question, why are you choosing Healthcare professionals salaries?

...because when looking at healthcare costs compared to other countries, healthcare professional's salaries stand out as much higher?

I get where you're coming from I do. And this largely applies to general practitioners. IMHO it's an easier sell to use more NP and require less in person visits to handle routine care as a better solution.

We can disagree here though as it isn't too important to the overall position imo.

This was the kind of messaging jiu-jitsu Obama used when trying to pass the public option and the doctors pulled up on him and made him back down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/22/AR2010102203394.html

"To avoid the wrath of hospitals and doctors, proponents of the bill rarely emphasized this cost-control argument. Nonetheless, when conservative "Blue Dog" Democrats weakened the public option in committee, they cited opposition from providers. And when the bill's supporters floated a close alternative to the public option -- letting people over 55 buy into Medicare -- the reaction from Sen. Olympia Snowe, the moderate Maine Republican, said it all: "I am talking to a lot of my providers . . . and I know they are mighty unhappy." Snowe exposed where the lobbying strength lay: No senator ever spoke of listening to "my insurers."

"The public hates the insurance industry and trusts doctors and hospitals," said Richard Kirsch, head of the liberal coalition Health Care for America Now. "But what killed the public option was the hospitals, not the insurance industry."

Politicians wanted to avoid a confrontation over providers' prices. So a different policy argument took hold: The real reason everything cost so much was the overuse of health care, not the actual prices of treatment."

The doctors and hospitals will stand in the way of any effort to universalize the healthcare system because they realize they'll ultimately have to share some of their wealth in order for the system to be functional. They're not dumb. Might as well go for the full monty.

This is where we will disagree completely.

1. Doctors high pay is largely a result of the high cost of education in this country and the high cost of starting a practice.

200 thousand dollars tables, 300k degrees, etc. If you want to cut cost you need to cut the cost of entry. If you don't many of these people will move into other Stem degrees that require less education and pay more.

2. Doctors are almost always the highest paid in societies you use as justification for why our doctors should make less. This is something you have to reconcile.

I don't think we disagree here at all, it is untenable to reduce doctors' salaries without reducing the financial burden of their education. There must be a commensurate reduction in med school fees and debt. But after that's taken care of, their quality of life metrics will need to fall in line with their counterparts in other countries. Most doctors aren't living hand to mouth, drowning in school debt. It's a very good life, compared to most professions. I'm not even saying they can't be highly paid, I'm saying they can't be so highly paid. All I'm saying is it should be more in line with some high-education professions. If you think a doctor having the same quality of life as a professor, federal lawyer/judge, NASA scientist or chief engineer in exchange for universal healthcare is a deeply unfair bargain, then yes, we do disagree.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

It's exactly what Canada did when rolling out their universal healthcare.

The doctor’s strike that nearly killed Canada’s Medicare-for-all plan, explained

Doctors made a stink, went on strike for a couple of weeks, and eventually backed down when the government stood its ground. There are other professions that will need to have their pay cut to enact a more equitable society. If we're already getting squeamish asking doctors to not be the most lucrative profession in society in order to bring about universal healthcare, we absolutely will not have the fortitude to enact any of the progressive policy measures.

Some of y’all live in LALA land.

Canada ahas free college, a lot easier to take that in stride. But This isn’t happening in the US...and other than competitive pressure, exploitative business practices, or industry collapse, other well paid professions aren’t going to be paid less just “because it’s more equitable”

And being a doctor isnt the most lucrative profession in society, not sure why you keep saying that...

 

[King Kreole]

Some careers require more teaching, skills and mental work than others. I’m in the healthcare field so I know what goes on. Imagine being an icu nurse caring for four intubated patients on all types of drips with no tech help . You have these peoples lives in your hands. Imagine dealing with a patients that’s on the verge of crashing and they have multiple organ failure and you have to pick the right meds and perform the right interventions to keep them alive. One fukk up and you’re getting sued. People in America are quick to sue you too.

Breh being a doctor , PA, nurse etc is a 24/7 365 day career. When’s the last time you heard a teacher was on call for a hospital whether it’s for nurses needing orders or to go into surgery. Some doctors are literally in charge of thousands of people’s Heath with their practices. people rely on checkups from Said doctors to stay healthy and live a good life.
Not trying to diminish the jobs other industries do either but you got to realize these jobs take a toll on you. It’s mentally , physically and financially draining. Every year you have to make sure all your credentials are in order every year you have to make sure you have continuing education. Medicine is not a joke.

Bro I'm not saying being a doctor or nurse is easy at all. It's one of the most necessary and difficult jobs to do in society. But there are other jobs that are necessary and difficult with wages that don't preclude an equitable society. It's this type of exceptionalism that is used to keep in place a fukked-up system. Doctors in Canada, UK, France, etc have to deal with the same set of conditions that doctors here do, except their doctors aren't making bank like this, and their healthcare hasn't collapsed. In fact, it's better than it is here. To get to universal healthcare, the choice is literally between doctor's going from $300K to $200K or doctors staying at $300K and everyone else paying out the ass. If we're too scared to do even this, then universal healthcare is DOA.

 

[King Kreole]

Id be more in favor of raising taxes than cutting pay for those in the medical field in regards to expanded medical coverage

When that middle-class tax hike number comes in...

 

[King Kreole]

Some of y’all live in LALA land.

Canada ahas free college, a lot easier to take that in stride. But This isn’t happening in the US...and other than competitive pressure, exploitative business practices, or industry collapse, other well paid professions aren’t going to be paid less just “because it’s more equitable”

Free college is being proposed by the candidates in favor of M4A. They're interrelated. You can't ask doctors to take a pay cut without dropping their educational expenses.

And being a doctor isnt the most lucrative profession in society, not sure why you keep saying that...

25 Highest Paid Occupations in the U.S. for 2019

These are the 25 best-paying jobs in America in 2019, according to US News & World Report

 

[NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong]

When that middle-class tax hike number comes in...

Im broke so i dont care right now

But i will care if i upgrade

 

[wire28]

I don’t they should cut doctors salaries though. Healthcare providers deal with ALOT. They have high patient loads, a persons life in your hands and lots of liability. This should be one of the most rewarding jobs available. The problems lie within insurance companies and administrators. If it weren’t for doctors, nurses, PAs, nurse practitioners this whole shyt would not work.

Preach can I get an amen @Serious

And they pay a lot more here to go through school. Y’all are bugging thinking they don’t deserve a couple hunnid g’s after 10-16+ years of school and fellowships and 200-300k in student loan debt

Say it one more time for the people in the back

 

[FAH1223]

"HOW WILL WE PAY FOR IT?!" by Stephanie Kelton, Bernie's top economic advisor

Some of y’all live in LALA land.

Canada ahas free college, a lot easier to take that in stride. But This isn’t happening in the US...and other than competitive pressure, exploitative business practices, or industry collapse, other well paid professions aren’t going to be paid less just “because it’s more equitable”

And being a doctor isnt the most lucrative profession in society, not sure why you keep saying that...

Amongst the proposals of the Dems running, free college is one of the most attainable. Considering it only costs $80B per year and the defense budget has gone up by double that in 2 years with no debate shows a simple misplacing of priorities.

Also, I do think people are forgetting that these proposals also aren't covering not only college but vocational too. Which needs to be emphasized way more.

And in terms of cancelling student debt, the executive branch has IMMENSE power due to existing laws on the books.

Cancel Student Debt—Almost All of It

Both Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have boldly called for student debt to be forgiven, giving students financial freedom and allowing a reset for the tragic way we finance higher education. Clearly, such a plan would run into resistance from Mitch McConnell and Republicans in Congress, and perhaps even some Democrats. But Warren and Sanders don’t need Congress to cancel at least 95 percent of all outstanding student debt.

The answer, according to Luke Herrine, a Ph.D. student in law at Yale, lies with an obscure statute dating back to the Eisenhower presidency known as “compromise and settlement” authority. This authority was granted to the Department of Education first in 1958 and then codified further in the Higher Education Act of 1965.

Herrine, who recently finished a public draft of a paper on the subject, explained in an interview that compromise and settlement operates similarly to the concept of prosecutorial discretion, a “whole line of jurisprudence” that “is not really something the courts can question.” For example, if someone hits your car, you have standing to sue. But there’s nothing that says you must sue. Similarly, the Department of Education can just decide not to collect on student loans.

Compromise and settlement gives the Education Department this explicit authority. Herrine writes: “ED has absolute discretion to determine when to stop collections, when to collect less than the full amount, and when to release debtors’ claims in toto.”

This power has grown in potential scope over time. In 2010, President Obama signed the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act, a bill ushered in as part of the Obamacare law. SAFRA eliminated middleman banks that issued student loans with a government guarantee, instead creating new lines of credit for students directly from the Department of Education. This meant that after 2010, virtually all student loans became public loans. Today, the government is responsible for $1.5 trillion of the $1.6 trillion in student debt. And these loans are the easiest to cancel through compromise and settlement: The government can simply opt out of collecting on them. (The few privately collected student loans still out there would be more difficult to deal with; Herrine writes that the Department of Education “would have to use its powers creatively to obtain possession.”)

In his paper and in our interviews, Herrine explains that much of this thinking dates back to a Supreme Court case. In Heckler v. Chaney (1985), several inmates on death row argued that the drugs that would be used to kill them were not approved by the FDA for that purpose, and therefore the drugs’ manufacturers violated the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. But the FDA declined to enforce the act in this case.

This upheld an important precedent: An agency’s actions are presumptively unreviewable by the court when it comes to refusing to exercise enforcement. For the student debt case, Herrine argues, this precedent means that a court may view any decision to settle or cancel debt as similarly unreviewable.

“I think there’s a real question about who the fukk would sue and what would their suit be?” Herrine says. It would be hard for someone to show that they had been harmed by a decision not to collect on student loans, and therefore hard to show that they have standing in court. The most likely possibility would be a private servicer whose job it is to collect on student loans because, with the government declining to collect on them, they’re out of a job. But even so, Heckler v. Chaney seems to indicate that this is just not reviewable by the courts.

That’s not to say there won’t be roadblocks. The scale of the debt forgiveness might require sign-off by the attorney general. If the debt is considered revenue to the federal government, the Office of Management and Budget would similarly have to approve a large, long-term loss. And finally, the next president would need to make sure that the debt forgiveness isn’t taxed, given that cancellation of debt is considered a form of earnings. “That would turn debt to the Department of Education into debt to the IRS, [with] no repayment plan, just liens on the house,” Herrine says. But the next president could surmount all of these hurdles, should he or she instruct the agencies accordingly.

 

[wire28]

Breh being a doctor , PA, nurse etc is a 24/7 365 day career. When’s the last time you heard a teacher was on call for a hospital whether it’s for nurses needing orders or to go into surgery. Some doctors are literally in charge of thousands of people’s Heath with their practices. people rely on checkups from Said doctors to stay healthy and live a good life.
Not trying to diminish the jobs other industries do either but you got to realize these jobs take a toll on you. It’s mentally , physically and financially draining. Every year you have to make sure all your credentials are in order every year you have to make sure you have continuing education. Medicine is not a joke.

nikka equating them jobs when nikkas routinely are at work while his ass sleep at home
If you are a doctor, especially a dedicated one, you are never really “off”

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

Free college is being proposed by the candidates in favor of M4A. They're interrelated. You can't ask doctors to take a pay cut without dropping their educational expenses.




25 Highest Paid Occupations in the U.S. for 2019

These are the 25 best-paying jobs in America in 2019, according to US News & World Report

I ain’t read their methodology and why they chose that, but people sitting here in tech with 5-10 years experience making that, we won’t get into corporate management/execs, banking, consulting and other high finance. Doctors are not the highest paid, maybe highest salary across the title or some shyt, but plenty other professions making MUCH more - without all the training, debt, and high cost of insurance.

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

Bernie:



Clinton:

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

 

[mastermind]

"HOW WILL WE PAY FOR IT?!" by Stephanie Kelton, Bernie's top economic advisor


Amongst the proposals of the Dems running, free college is one of the most attainable. Considering it only costs $80B per year and the defense budget has gone up by double that in 2 years with no debate shows a simple misplacing of priorities.

Also, I do think people are forgetting that these proposals also aren't covering not only college but vocational too. Which needs to be emphasized way more.

And in terms of cancelling student debt, the executive branch has IMMENSE power due to existing laws on the books.

Cancel Student Debt—Almost All of It

Canceling student debt is the first step.

We need to lower the cost of college by forcing states to adequately fund schools and then get schools to lower tuition.

 

[wire28]

Jesus Christ Bernie

 

[A.R.$]

Lol @ proposing a plan that says hey “we’re going to cut the pay of a whole profession”...one that actually provides value at that

Ok

That’s what I’m saying. I understand what @King Kreole is saying, but i just don’t think you can sell that politically, unless you make med school free. That’s what they do in the military and VA.