31-21-22

[Brozay]

@Gil Scott-Heroin @Brozay

Personally, if I were asked to rank Jokic, I could only rank him in regards to the center position, which for him would be in the 6-15 range of all-time centers, he loses some spots because of his weak defense.

I can't rank him on the positionless all-time list because of his lack of accolades (championships, longevity, stats, etc), he doesn't have enough to be ranked that high and as stated above he's average on the defensive side of the ball. If I had to rank on the positionless scale he'd be somewhere in the 20-35 range.

Anything higher than that would be absurd.

the only thing absurd here is suggesting Jokic could potentially be the 15th on the all time center list

 

[Unbothered]

fans don’t award the MVPs. Im not super interested in the NBA discord around the internet, I could find just as many narratives around the NBA social media landscape that disparage Jokic. I’m replying directly to your words about Jokic winning MVPs and the voters that decide it. How do you explain Embiid winning two years ago and SGA likely winning this year? It completely dispels that narrative. If they were unfairly handing him MVPs, why wouldn’t he win this season? or the Embiid MVP season?

you also continue to include Wilt as a barometer, should I remind you he only has one ring and he had a teammate ahead of him in the MVP voting that year?

Jokic's 3 MVPs during this 5 year run of dominance (where he did lead his team to a finals win) are fitting IMO. He’s been historically good and sorry to burst your bubble, he’s gonna be properly rated as an all time great when his career is finished.

I really was naive to think his ring would put some of these narratives to bed, yet here we are, in the midst of an absolute historic season he’s producing, where he likely won’t win the MVP, having to explain his accolades. Honestly, it’s ridiculous. SGA will win this season, and he’ll be deserving, maybe it will end this narrative that Jokic has some bias for winning the award, but it probably won’t, and somehow we’ll be here again next season when he produces another historically good year.

His being an all-time great isn't problematic to me because there are plenty of all-time greats that rank outside the top 5-10; being an all-time great doesn't equate to being in the top 5-10. I don't think he'll ever be an all-time great in regards to being in the top 5-10 of all-time players, but rather an all-time great player between the 20-35 range.

I'm not so sure SGA will win MVP this year, even tho he should, I have a funny feeling that he'll get snubbed again. I actually do believe Jokic will win the MVP because of that bias.

the only thing absurd here is suggesting Jokic could potentially be the 15th on the all time center list

Some centers are better than him defensively and have more accolades, so imo he could finish his career anywhere between that 6-15 range of all-time big men; that doesn't mean he'll be #15, but that's the threshold for him. He's not better than Shaq who was elite and a dominant force on both sides of the ball.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Neither one of you clearly don't pay attention to NBA discord around the world, every season the perception has been that if he doesn't win MVP he's been “robbed”.

You literally just made this shyt up to layer your confirmation bias.

Cherry-picking what some fans believe is not reflective of what the discourse is.

Celtics fans believe Tatum has been robbed of winning MVP; Embiid fans believe he was robbed of winning MVP before he did; Giannis fans believe he was robbed over the last few years when he didn't win MVP.

Jokic is NOT that popular where the dominant narrative is he gets robbed, especially considering that in 2023 he was forced out of the conversation because cats felt sorry for Embiid.

As if it needs reiterating, he's been the best regular season performer over the last half a decade, so why wouldn't some folks believe that he's most deserving? You're trying to frame as if he hasn't been the best player in the league, as if he's just some standard star who hasn't acheived any success. And since when do fans have any tangible input on who wins MVP? Almost every season that Jokic has won MVP, when the straw poll has been released during the first third of the season he wasn't even favorite; every year he's worked himself into the conversation as the season has gone on.

The year Embiid won, the notion was that he was robbed, and people still push that narrative,

This is NOT what happened.

The notion was that Embiid was the one being robbed because of some stupid ass keyboard militant agenda largely popularized by Kendrick Perkins, to where the narrative started being that the MVP noise around Jokic was because he was white. His candidacy started losing steam once that narrative took hold.

The discourse in wake of Embiid winning MVP was about how stupid that narrative was, because he crashed out in the playoffs in embarrassing fashion and Jokic ended up winning a title along with the Finals MVP. Jokic wasn't robbed in the sense that he should've won MVP that season, he was robbed in principle of cats trying to force these bullshyt ass agendas, ultimately leaving them with egg all over their face.

Jokic killed all that bullshyt said about him when he won a title that season.

and if SGA by miracle (since it's not a given he'll win MVP) wins this year, it'll be the same talk among NBA discussion that he was “robbed due to voter fatigue” and that narrative has already begun by people saying the only thing SGA has over Jokic is a better team record and PPG.

Shai has MVP in the bag.

Why are you trying to make out like he's not the overwhelming favorite?

Once again, you're cherry-picking what some folks say. I've seen plenty of discussion where it's centered around Shai being robbed if he doesn't win MVP. Both are deserving of winning MVP so I don't see the sense in you trying to frame it as if Jokic isn't.

Bringing up Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Jordan, and Bron does matter because these players are considered among the greatest of all time and their accolades (MVPs, championships, statistical records, etc) define their ranking. There's a reason why players from numerous decades rank among each other and not by era. Jokic having all these MVPs would mislead many to make the assertion that he's among the top 3-5 of all-time, despite having only 1 championship which is ridiculous.

It literally does not matter.

You just created this fictive in your head.

Jokic winning more MVPs than someone doesn't automatically mean he deserves to be ranked ahead of them on an all-time list, and that goes for every and any player. If Shai wasn't performing as well as he currently is and OKC weren't winning at their current rate, and it was Denver who were the #1 seed, would you really try to argue Jokic doesn't deserve MVP because it would mean he'd have more MVPs than x-player, y-player z-player from the past?

Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds?

Now we trying to act like MVPs don't play a role in all-time rankings? Jokic may end his career as a one-time champion, yet will be ranked higher than previous players who've accomplished more in their careers, he should not exceed LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem in MVPs with nowhere near the accolades as them. Now y'all tryna water down the MVP by saying “who cares if he passes them in MVP trophies, let him win em all, it doesn't matter”. It does matter when people decades from now will revisit and revisionist tales about who's the greatest of all time starts taking over.

They do matter in all-time rankings, but context matters more.

Just because he has more MVPs than someone doesn't mean he will be ranked ahead of them. If those folks can't contextulize his career properly, than that's on them. Furthermore, we're not about to penalize Jokic either because his surrounding support cast isn't good enough to compete for a title when he's the best player in the league. You're fairly transparent in that you have a problem with folks valuing Jokic for what he truly is, when you're ready with your hand on your hip to empty the clip with hating.

There's already been people seriously making clams that Jokic is the second best player of all-time and some have even tried to argue he's better than Jordan, at least offensively. Y'all don't pay attention to NBA discussion online the way I do.

Again, you're making this shyt up.

You can literally find any post, comment, thread etc about anything in regards to the NBA. It seems you don't pay atention to NBA discourse as much as you think you do were you're using these people making these alleged claims as if it's some widespread agenda. If there was a poll right now where NBA fans across the globe could vote on the top-20 players of all time (with exact rank), the percentage of folks ranking Jokic 2nd all time would be that astronomically low that it wouldn't even be worth counting.

shyt, you'd probably have more votes for A.I. being the 2nd greatest player than you would for Jokic.

Go figure.

 

[Jerz-2]

Y'all don't pay attention to NBA discussion online the way I do.

That's your first mistake right there, brother.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@Gil Scott-Heroin @Brozay

Personally, if I were asked to rank Jokic, I could only rank him in regards to the center position, which for him would be in the 6-15 range of all-time centers, he loses some spots because of his weak defense.

Very few centers (if any, at all) were that dominant on defense where it's ultimately the difference between them and Jokic.

You're either overrating defensive impact and/or you don't know to how properly judge centers on the defensive end.

Take this for example -

AD is largely regarded as one of the best big men to ever play the game, and he's regarded as one of, it not the best defensive player in the game. Now, as we've seen over the last few years, both in the regular season and postseason, that he isn't even remotely on Jokic's level, and he's comprehensively better than Jokic on defense. Which makes you think, if AD is this all-time great defensive player, who's also great on offense, how isn't he even on Jokic's level? Why is it Jokic has swept him in the last two series' they played against one another (even with playing alongside Bron)? Why is it that AD can't dominate a game like Jokic can?

Offense and defense isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be.

There's a reason why despite Jokic and Luka not being great defenders, they're still arguably top-3 players in the league.

As an addition -

Where do you rank Magic, all time?

 

[number21]

Great player but the dikk riding is nasty. Will enjoy when he comes up short in the playoffs

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm not so sure SGA will win MVP this year, even tho he should, I have a funny feeling that he'll get snubbed again. I actually do believe Jokic will win the MVP because of that bias.

What the fukk are you even talking about?

Jokic is currently having the greatest season a big man has had in modern history, and you're telling me anyone that votes for Jokic is purely out of bias?

Great player but the dikk riding is nasty. Will enjoy when he comes up short in the playoffs

Cats ride the dikks of great players every day, b. Is it not also nasty to you when it happens to other players?

 

[broller]

Knocking on the door? You can only say Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq are better than him and he is breathing on Shaq’s neck with a few years of his prime left.

What about Hakeem?

 

[Big Boss]

That's your first mistake right there, brother.

 

[mozichrome]

Bro just amazing. Looking at the run this morning of his numbers over past few year were watching is incredible

 

[FukkaPaidEmail]

fukk the bullshyt..Second best big man I’ve seen play after Tim.

 

[Mandizi]

That's an amazing feat.

Regarding reg. season MVP. Shai should've won last year. This year, it's whatever.

 

[Roger king]

Shai is the league mvp , the okc thunder are the number 1 seed and he is leading the entire league in scoring while playing all defensive level at the other end of the court, jokic is a defensive liability for some odd reason people excuse the ''best player in the world'' being a liability and easy to score on , they change the rules and criteria to benefit jokic, now team records dont matter but if it supports jokic, it matters and no more voter fatigue magically, its a bunch of nerds voting for someone they can more closely identify or align with as fans

 

[darryl]

Shai is the league mvp , the okc thunder are the number 1 seed and he is leading the entire league in scoring while playing all defensive level at the other end of the court, jokic is a defensive liability for some odd reason people excuse the ''best player in the world'' being a liability and easy to score on , they change the rules and criteria to benefit jokic, now team records dont matter but if it supports jokic, it matters and no more voter fatigue magically, its a bunch of nerds voting for someone they can more closely identify or align with as fans

Exactly

 

[Lil Bape the PostGod]

The actual MVP