After Reading 'Wilt, 1962' And Seeing This Stat Sheet...He's Top 5 All Time

[drewbreez]

• In 1962, teams averaged 118.8 ppg. In 2011, teams averaged 99.6 ppg.
• In 1962, teams averaged 71.4 rpg. In 2011, teams averaged 41.4 rpg.
• In 1962, teams averaged 23.9 apg. In 2011, teams averaged 21.5 apg.
• In 1962, players averaged 42.6% FG. In 2011, players averaged 45.9% FG.
• In 1962, players averaged 47.9% TS. In 2011, players averaged 54.3% TS.

It's a completely different game now

Ok, so lemme hold your argument's hand for you and show you how to prove what you're saying despite the difference in pace. There is a stat called Per 36 minutes and a stat called total rebounding percentage. The only constant from year to year is that the players are human beings and tend to play about the same amount of minutes no matter the era. Prove to me that, per time played, there was some "rebounding inflation" happening in the years when pace was higher.

Here's a hint before you start: it'll be tough.

 

[dantheman9758]

But what about Otto Graham's Bill Russell's or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's take on Wilt Chamberlain though?

Like this?



http://kareemabduljabbar.com/?p=2257

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh by the way in 1967 and 68. Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won 8 consecutive NBA Championships. Bills rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was 8 per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 Championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or Lebron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, Lebron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

The change in style to the game is not any indication as to how many really talented players there are in the game. So the fact that skilled players come from all over the world does not change the quantity of outstanding talent. Simply put the number of players that could have stopped Wilt Chamberlain in his prime has not increased.

Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

 

[dantheman9758]

• In 1962, teams averaged 118.8 ppg. In 2011, teams averaged 99.6 ppg.
• In 1962, teams averaged 71.4 rpg. In 2011, teams averaged 41.4 rpg.
• In 1962, teams averaged 23.9 apg. In 2011, teams averaged 21.5 apg.
• In 1962, players averaged 42.6% FG. In 2011, players averaged 45.9% FG.
• In 1962, players averaged 47.9% TS. In 2011, players averaged 54.3% TS.

It's a completely different game now

Team rebounds were counted differently back then, the disparity between available rebounds then vs now is NOT as pronounced as those figures suggest. It is higher, yes, but not nearly as much as those figures.

 

[dem bath salts]

In my top 5.

 

[Newzz]

Oh you mean like Charles Barkley in 86-87 or Charles Barkley in 96-97 where he average 14.6 RPG and 13.5 RPG respectively?

Chill with the lol's and do some fact-checking. GREAT PLAYERS average high numbers. That's what they do. Elgin Baylor: check. Wilt: check. Charles: check.

Bums average high numbers too though

1961, Wilt averaged 27.2 rebounds per game....the highest of his career.

In that same year, the league average was 41.5% FG and 73.3% FT

45 makes on 109 shot attempts + 27 free throw makes on 37 free throw attempts = 74 missed shots on average per game. That means 74 rebounding attempts per game

vs

2013, the league average was 45.3% FG and 75.3% FT

37 makes on 81 shot attempts + 17 free throw makes on 22 free throw attempts = 49 missed shots on average per game. That means 49 rebounding attempts per game


Great rebounders had EXTRA opportunities in 1961 to grab 25 more missed shots than a great rebounder of today. You dont think that's a huge reason why their rebounding numbers were so high?

You dont think Anderson Varejao, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, Niko Vucevic would average 20+ rebounds per game in this era if they had 25 extra rebounding opportunities a game?

 

[drewbreez]

Bums average high numbers too though

1961, Wilt averaged 27.2 rebounds per game....the highest of his career.

In that same year, the league average was 41.5% FG and 73.3% FT

45 makes on 109 shot attempts + 27 free throw makes on 37 free throw attempts = 74 missed shots on average per game. That means 74 rebounding attempts per game

vs

2013, the league average was 45.3% FG and 75.3% FT

37 makes on 81 shot attempts + 17 free throw makes on 22 free throw attempts = 49 missed shots on average per game. That means 49 rebounding attempts per game


Great rebounders had EXTRA opportunities in 1961 to grab 25 more missed shots than a great rebounder of today. You dont think that's a huge reason why their rebounding numbers were so high?

You dont think Anderson Varejao, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, Niko Vucevic would average 20+ rebounds per game in this era if they had 25 extra rebounding opportunities a game?

I'm not going to answer your stipulation for you. If there are/were BUM players who benefited from inflated rebounding opportunities, name them.

 

[drewbreez]

@dantheman9758

It's great to meet another hoop historian. I respect your knowledge and acumen in this discussion full of green noob trolls.

Here's a link to Pace-Adjusted Stats for 60s era players that may speak to what the core of this thread has become:

http://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/nba-stars-of-1960s-pace-adjusted-stats/

Wilt Chamberlain – Wilt suffered the most extreme drop off because in addition to the pace adjustment, I had to adjust his minutes from over 46 per game to a more realistic (in modern terms) 40 per game. Nevertheless, his stats are still phenomenal. His 2003-12 paced stats come to 27 Pts on 58.8% shooting, 12 Rbds, and 4 Blks far better than any actual center playing today.

For his statistical regression downed Wilt's minutes because, by this theory, there were more players in later eras and WC would likely have been substituted and played slightly less minutes. That's a moot point but one worth examining. Still.

 

[Broke Wave]

Serious question, what do you think 05-06 Kobe would average in 1961?

 

[dantheman9758]

@dantheman9758

It's great to meet another hoop historian. I respect your knowledge and acumen in this discussion full of green noob trolls.

Here's a link to Pace-Adjusted Stats for 60s era players that may speak to what the core of this thread has become:

http://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/nba-stars-of-1960s-pace-adjusted-stats/



For his statistical regression downed Wilt's minutes because, by this theory, there were more players in later eras and WC would likely have been substituted and played slightly less minutes. That's a moot point but one worth examining. Still.

Adjusted stats are fictitious stats. 12rpg is laughable adjustment. People can adjust the crap out of stats to make them far off base from what they realistically might change to given different circumstances switching an era. Superstars today average more touches relative to their more "roleplayer" minded teammates these days, this includes opportunities to rebound etc. So TRB% and what not would likely even go up if pace went down. I don't buy adjusted numbers. Especially in Wilt's case, minutes played. Nobody played his kind of minutes ever, not in his era, not in any era. He would play a ridiculous amount of minutes in this era too, he literally never got tired, he had a gift to play and never get tired, coaches today would exploit that too.

 

[drewbreez]

Adjusted stats are fictitious stats. 12rpg is laughable adjustment. People can adjust the crap out of stats to make them far off base from what they realistically might change to given different circumstances switching an era. Superstars today average more touches relative to their more "roleplayer" minded teammates these days, this includes opportunities to rebound etc. So TRB% and what not would likely even go up if pace went down. I don't buy adjusted numbers. Especially in Wilt's case, minutes played. Nobody played his kind of minutes ever, not in his era, not in any era. He would play a ridiculous amount of minutes in this era too, he literally never got tired, he had a gift to play and never get tired, coaches today would exploit that too.

Yea man I had to throw these pups a bone though because they were getting so worked up about pace and forgetting that the discussion was about GREATNESS, not era-bashing. I think it is moot to compare eras but that there are differences and they should be noted, not abided. It is hard to pin down how a team sport changes by year and with minor changes in athletic prowess, conditioning tools and the like.
My point was that even with a statistician adjusting only numbers (taking out the human factor like durability), Wilt was still a statistically DOMINANT center in Fantasy Land. Since all of that is based on number he actually put up, I thought it was a nice dovetail.

 

[TheNig]

You holier than thou ass clowns should be ashamed of yourselves. Calling cats "young pups" like yall watched the "100 point" game or listened to it on your radio. You nikkas research, read, and watch videos just like we had to do but becuz we have a difference of opinion from you we're seen as uninformed.



fukk outta here you above the fray ass nikkas.

 

[dantheman9758]

You holier than thou ass clowns should be ashamed of yourselves. Calling cats "young pups" like yall watched the "100 point" game or listened to it on your radio. You nikkas research, read, and watch videos just like we had to do but becuz we have a difference of opinion from you we're seen as uninformed.



fukk outta here you above the fray ass nikkas.

Dunno who's calling who what and dont care but....

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/wilt/wilt_1962.swf

 

[TheNig]

Dunno who's calling who what and dont care but....

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/wilt/wilt_1962.swf

Cant open file.

 

[Newzz]

@dantheman9758

It's great to meet another hoop historian. I respect your knowledge and acumen in this discussion full of green noob trolls.

Here's a link to Pace-Adjusted Stats for 60s era players that may speak to what the core of this thread has become:

http://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/nba-stars-of-1960s-pace-adjusted-stats/



For his statistical regression downed Wilt's minutes because, by this theory, there were more players in later eras and WC would likely have been substituted and played slightly less minutes. That's a moot point but one worth examining. Still.

The pace aint all that's the problem. Again, they also shot HORRIBLE back in those days which allowed for more rebounds to be available. That isnt duplicated in this day & age.

Just look at the HOF players from back in the 60s and their shooting percentages. Too many bricked shots = defensive/offensive rebounds abundance.

Stop trying to deny/bypass that

 

[drewbreez]

The pace aint all that's the problem. Again, they also shot HORRIBLE back in those days which allowed for more rebounds to be available. That isnt duplicated in this day & age.

Just look at the HOF players from back in the 60s and their shooting percentages. Too many bricked shots = defensive/offensive rebounds abundance.

Stop trying to deny/bypass that

@Newzz

I'm not bypassing a thing. I just don't understand how, if your theory about pace is right, there aren't more average and below-average players with inflated rebounding stats. You're using that as the premise for why Wilt couldn't be as good as players in this era, aren't you?

@TheNig

I'm not dismissing your point or saying I witnessed the games. I'm asking for the evidence that supports your point. You haven't given any. You called me and above the fray and whatever else you could drum up instead of providing supporting facts. I started the thread -- praising a player's accomplishments -- yet somehow I'm the troll?
I asked for an example and you gave Elgin Baylor...who's accepted as one of the greatest players of all time...by the Hall of Fame.