Alright so lets say Kakarot NEVER existed

[AITheAnswerAI]

it is bs because it's just fans trying to justify why such and such is stronger than such and such....the canon created by toryiama didnt separate the levels into all those sub groups, it was fans...that's what i'm trying to tell you...he had 3 original levels: ss1, ss2, ss3....now, could the charaters get stronger inbetween levels? yes, but they were still considered whatever ss level....ex: gohan was obviously stronger before he went ss2 against cell, but he was still considered a ss1 until he made the complete transformaton...

They still explain the difference though, when they were ssj1. Vegeta and Trunks were trying to force another transformation before fully mastering ssj1, which Goku and Gohan did. They did that by staying in that ssj1 form all the time, to the point where it was no big deal to turn ssj because it became so normal for them. So that's still a different level than what Vegeta and Trunks did, with the whole pumped up and losing speed (Trunks) transformation. Goku tried that form and said this aint the route to go and went a different route. So it's more than who's stronger than who, because if Trunks hadn't lost so much speed, he had the strength to fukk with Perfect Cell.

 

[Another Man]

Loud dappin everythang

 

[lutha]

They still explain the difference though, when they were ssj1. Vegeta and Trunks were trying to force another transformation before fully mastering ssj1, which Goku and Gohan did. They did that by staying in that ssj1 form all the time, to the point where it was no big deal to turn ssj because it became so normal for them. So that's still a different level than what Vegeta and Trunks did, with the whole pumped up and losing speed (Trunks) transformation. Goku tried that form and said this aint the route to go and went a different route. So it's more than who's stronger than who, because if Trunks hadn't lost so much speed, he had the strength to fukk with Perfect Cell.

they don't really explain the difference though...they are bs labels trying to explain why person a is stronger than person b by the different looks of the characters, but not the power levels, which is all that matters...the reason vegeta and trunks didn't get to ss2 as fast as goku/gohan is cause they weren't that strong and they didn't train nearly as much in comparison...it had nothing to do with mastering ss1, it was all about increasing your power levels by any means...vegeta went the 'get my ass whopped and when I heal that's your ass' route; while goku trained and sparred his ass off, all the time...hell, he walked around doing daily shyt in weighted clothes to help his training...that's why it's not a coincidence that vegeta was able to increase in power quickly once he started training, he just never committed to it...the same goes for why gohan went from being that muthafukka to not that muthafukka when he stopped training when goku died after cell games...

as for trunks, he still wouldn't have been able to fukk with cell if he kept his speed...the fight would've lasted longer, but he would've eventually lost cause he wasn't stronger than cell...and that's all that mattered in db...the whole thing is built on power levels and whomever has the higher power level is top dog....prime ex: burter from ginyu...fast as shyt, but not strong, that's why he was an afterthought...anyway, after goku reached ss, the power levels became stupid and meaningless, that's why fans came with those bs sub categories trying to explain shyt for their favorite character...it was all a pissing contest...still didnt matter, the only categories that mattered were ss1, ss2, and ss3...even the series shows that with the defeat of the villains: ss1 - frieza; ss2 - cell; ss3 - buu...

 

[lutha]

Stop derailing this thread arguing about Super Saiyan forms. Get back to the original topic.

lol my bad....to get back on track: what ed posted is right - frieza would've run shyt cause the series revolved around goku....without him, the others don't get as strong as they did; they would've been frieza's personal army until he died...or that bill character showed up...

 

[AITheAnswerAI]

they don't really explain the difference though...they are bs labels trying to explain why person a is stronger than person b by the different looks of the characters, but not the power levels, which is all that matters...the reason vegeta and trunks didn't get to ss2 as fast as goku/gohan is cause they weren't that strong and they didn't train nearly as much in comparison...it had nothing to do with mastering ss1, it was all about increasing your power levels by any means...vegeta went the 'get my ass whopped and when I heal that's your ass' route; while goku trained and sparred his ass off, all the time...hell, he walked around doing daily shyt in weighted clothes to help his training...that's why it's not a coincidence that vegeta was able to increase in power quickly once he started training, he just never committed to it...the same goes for why gohan went from being that muthafukka to not that muthafukka when he stopped training when goku died after cell games...

as for trunks, he still wouldn't have been able to fukk with cell if he kept his speed...the fight would've lasted longer, but he would've eventually lost cause he wasn't stronger than cell...and that's all that mattered in db...the whole thing is built on power levels and whomever has the higher power level is top dog....prime ex: burter from ginyu...fast as shyt, but not strong, that's why he was an afterthought...anyway, after goku reached ss, the power levels became stupid and meaningless, that's why fans came with those bs sub categories trying to explain shyt for their favorite character...it was all a pissing contest...still didnt matter, the only categories that mattered were ss1, ss2, and ss3...even the series shows that with the defeat of the villains: ss1 - frieza; ss2 - cell; ss3 - buu...

Both Vegeta and Trunks spent 2 years in the time room, Goku and Gohan spent less than a year.

It had everything to do with mastering ssj1, because they clearly said simply trying to increase your power level won't work. That's what Vegeta and Trunks did, and they put in way more work too.

Goku and Gohan simply have better natural talent, and Goku was able to train in heaven and shyt with no limitations.

Also, Cell admitted that Trunks was stronger when Trunks was whooping up on him at first, then Cell showed him it didn't matter because he was way too slow.

 

[lutha]

Both Vegeta and Trunks spent 2 years in the time room, Goku and Gohan spent less than a year.

It had everything to do with mastering ssj1, because they clearly said simply trying to increase your power level won't work. That's what Vegeta and Trunks did, and they put in way more work too.

Goku and Gohan simply have better natural talent, and Goku was able to train in heaven and shyt with no limitations.

Also, Cell admitted that Trunks was stronger when Trunks was whooping up on him at first, then Cell showed him it didn't matter because he was way too slow.

didnt matter, they were playing catch up the whole series....goku/gohan had been training their whole lives....vegeta and trunks hadnt...they weren't gonna pass them

no it didn't...it wasnt about mastering, it was about increasing your power to that point, then being able to unleash it...which normally happened in 2 ways: 1) they were pissed off enough or 2) they saw an example of it aka saw goku do it....in some cases, it was way 1 that caused the transformation...ex: goku going ss1; gohan going ss2...most other cases was them seeing goku do it, and then him telling them they could do it too....ex: gohan going ss2 in the chamber; gotenks going ss3 against buu...the only one that mastered the transformations before hand was goku (except ss1)...then he would show the others how to reach those levels...that was the theme of the whole series...specifically about trunks/vegeta: against cell, trunks and vegeta just weren't strong enough to get to those levels at that time...trunks was pissed, unleashed all his power, but it just wasn't ss2...

that is true, they were the better natural talent family..

cell admitted he was stronger than vegeta and could possibly hurt him, but it didn't matter cause he was slow...but no, trunks would've never beat cell...he just wasn't powerful enough....at that point: gohan was the strongest alive in the series (goku didnt count cause he was technically dead and gonna be written out the series; if you count goku, him and gohan were about even, with goku being slightly stronger)

....I know yall finding it hard to believe, but what i'm telling yall is the truth...the only levels that mattered in the series were ss1, ss2, and ss3....just go by the villans in the series and you'll see for yallselves...that other shyt is all fan made up and doesn't matter...it's only used in pissing contests when talking about personal favorite characters at different points in the series...

 

[AITheAnswerAI]

didnt matter, they were playing catch up the whole series....goku/gohan had been training their whole lives....vegeta and trunks hadnt...they weren't gonna pass them

At the begining of the series Vegeta is WAY stronger than Goku, they had to spend an entire year training for Vegeta and Nappa, and they still weren't strong enough to beat him in a fair one. And yes both Vegeta and Trunks were training their whole life, how else did Trunks learn how to fight and become a ssj as a teenager?

no it didn't...it wasnt about mastering, it was about increasing your power to that point, then being able to unleash it...which normally happened in 2 ways: 1) they were pissed off enough or 2) they saw an example of it aka saw goku do it....in some cases, it was way 1 that caused the transformation...ex: goku going ss1; gohan going ss2...most other cases was them seeing goku do it, and then him telling them they could do it too....ex: gohan going ss2 in the chamber; gotenks going ss3 against buu...the only one that mastered the transformations before hand was goku (except ss1)...then he would show the others how to reach those levels...that was the theme of the whole series...specifically about trunks/vegeta: against cell, trunks and vegeta just weren't strong enough to get to those levels at that time...trunks was pissed, unleashed all his power, but it just wasn't ss2..

Nah man, they didn't know how it worked before hand, they were just trying to get stronger. Vegeta and Trunks did it incorrectly, but Goku was betting that Gohan would unleash his hidden power that he shows glimpses of when his life is on the line.

that is true, they were the better natural talent family..

cell admitted he was stronger than vegeta and could possibly hurt him, but it didn't matter cause he was slow...but no, trunks would've never beat cell...he just wasn't powerful enough....at that point: gohan was the strongest alive in the series (goku didnt count cause he was technically dead and gonna be written out the series; if you count goku, him and gohan were about even, with goku being slightly stronger)

....I know yall finding it hard to believe, but what i'm telling yall is the truth...the only levels that mattered in the series were ss1, ss2, and ss3....just go by the villans in the series and you'll see for yallselves...that other shyt is all fan made up and doesn't matter...it's only used in pissing contests when talking about personal favorite characters at different points in the series...

If it was fan made up, then why did they bother giving Vegeta and Trunks those big ass muscles and Trunks going even bigger and losing speed? You address everything except for that. If it was just about him being weaker, then they wouldn't have bothered with that huge ass pumped up look that was really strong, but had a speed weakness.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Yup

Just think of the Plant Trade organization's depth chart in this imaginary scenario

King Cold
Cooler - Frieza

Zarbon - Didoria

Vegeta - Raditz - Nappa - Turles - Brolly
Ginyu - Jeice - Recoome - Guldo - Burter
Apul - Cui - Nail [face it he would've bowed down]

simply put nobody we've discussed besides theoretically Dabura stands a chance against them in this alternate future...until bills

Dabura is stronger than everyone on this list by multifolds of power. He would one shot every last single one of these foes.

Nail is stronger than everyone on this list with the exception of captain ginyu, king kold, and frieza. I'm not even going to argue brolly or turles (you should know why)

 

[Jplaya2023]

Both Vegeta and Trunks spent 2 years in the time room, Goku and Gohan spent less than a year.

It had everything to do with mastering ssj1, because they clearly said simply trying to increase your power level won't work. That's what Vegeta and Trunks did, and they put in way more work too.

Goku and Gohan simply have better natural talent, and Goku was able to train in heaven and shyt with no limitations.

Also, Cell admitted that Trunks was stronger when Trunks was whooping up on him at first, then Cell showed him it didn't matter because he was way too slow.

The reason goku and gohan advanced so far ahead of vegeta and trunks was because they trained togethor, and trained smarter than them. Had vegeta swallowed his pride and trained with trunks their gains would've been similiar to that of goku and gohan..

Trunks was never whooping cell, hell he couldn't even land a blow on cell. That was to show that bulking your muscles means nothing if you can't hit your opponent. Cell did the same transformation trunks did and yielded the same power.

you can start reading here to see my point

http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/dbz/v33/c1/2

 

[Ed MOTHERFUCKING G]

Dabura is stronger than everyone on this list by multifolds of power. He would one shot every last single one of these foes.

Nail is stronger than everyone on this list with the exception of captain ginyu, king kold, and frieza. I'm not even going to argue brolly or turles (you should know why)

...ok...?

 

[lutha]

At the begining of the series Vegeta is WAY stronger than Goku, they had to spend an entire year training for Vegeta and Nappa, and they still weren't strong enough to beat him in a fair one. And yes both Vegeta and Trunks were training their whole life, how else did Trunks learn how to fight and become a ssj as a teenager?



Nah man, they didn't know how it worked before hand, they were just trying to get stronger. Vegeta and Trunks did it incorrectly, but Goku was betting that Gohan would unleash his hidden power that he shows glimpses of when his life is on the line.




If it was fan made up, then why did they bother giving Vegeta and Trunks those big ass muscles and Trunks going even bigger and losing speed? You address everything except for that. If it was just about him being weaker, then they wouldn't have bothered with that huge ass pumped up look that was really strong, but had a speed weakness.

yea, vegeta was initially....actually, goku was about to beat vegeta until he turned into the monkey...no vegeta didn't train his whole life...the cat didn't train period until after he got cool with goku...even then, he only did it a lil bit cause he had his pride and always thought he should've been stronger just cause he was the prince...as for trunks, he trained in an alternate universe, with a weaker gohan cause there was no goku...yea, he was able to get to ss as a teenager, but gohan training with goku was stronger in this universe compared to the other one...that's why he could go ss2 as a kid

who didn't know how it worked?..i said they didn't know how until they saw goku do it...after going ss1, goku learned to master increasing his power level to go other levels of ss cause of all the training and travelling he did, especially in death...he was the one that showed the others how to do..exs: he showed gohan ss2 in the chamber; he showed them all ss3 against buu..then he'd explain how to get there...

it's fan made up because there are no official names for the levels in between ss1, ss2, and ss3...i never said it was to show trunks was weaker...in fact, it was to show he was stronger, just weaker than cell....them showing trunks getting bigger was to show he had increased power and was stronger than vegeta at that moment, but there was no official name for it...it was fans that made that shyt up to try to tell the difference between the power levels...it's a reason why those described levels only have 1 or 2 people they apply to...again, the only levels that mattered were ss1, ss2, and ss3..the series showed this...it took goku going ss to beat frieza; took gohan going ss2 to beat cell; took goku going ss3 to beat buu; hell, it took goku & vegeta going ss4 to beat dragon dude in gt (name slipping my mind right now)...anything in between those levels didn't have names...they were just used to show the process of them going from one level to another....

 

[AITheAnswerAI]

The reason goku and gohan advanced so far ahead of vegeta and trunks was because they trained togethor, and trained smarter than them. Had vegeta swallowed his pride and trained with trunks their gains would've been similiar to that of goku and gohan..

Trunks was never whooping cell, hell he couldn't even land a blow on cell. That was to show that bulking your muscles means nothing if you can't hit your opponent. Cell did the same transformation trunks did and yielded the same power.

you can start reading here to see my point

http://www.mangawindow.com/manga/dbz/v33/c1/2

That's exactly my point, and they mastered ssj to the point where they could walk around and even sleep in the form and not waste energy.

And Cell let Trunks land some blow at first to the point where Trunks asked if Cell wanted to give up, and that's when Cell started laughing and said and showed him he was too slow. Don't tell me to read nikka, I know this shyt

 

[Jplaya2023]

That's exactly my point, and they mastered ssj to the point where they could walk around and even sleep in the form and not waste energy.

And Cell let Trunks land some blow at first to the point where Trunks asked if Cell wanted to give up, and that's when Cell started laughing and said and showed him he was too slow. Don't tell me to read nikka, I know this shyt

dawg read the manga, trunks hitting cell in the manga never happened bruh. the anime has plenty of shyt fillers like that.

Also they were SSJs all the time except when they slept.

 

[AITheAnswerAI]

it's fan made up because there are no official names for the levels in between ss1, ss2, and ss3...i never said it was to show trunks was weaker...in fact, it was to show he was stronger, just weaker than cell....them showing trunks getting bigger was to show he had increased power and was stronger than vegeta at that moment, but there was no official name for it...it was fans that made that shyt up to try to tell the difference between the power levels...it's a reason why those described levels only have 1 or 2 people they apply to...again, the only levels that mattered were ss1, ss2, and ss3..the series showed this...it took goku going ss to beat frieza; took gohan going ss2 to beat cell; took goku going ss3 to beat buu; hell, it took goku & vegeta going ss4 to beat dragon dude in gt (name slipping my mind right now)...anything in between those levels didn't have names...they were just used to show the process of them going from one level to another....

These levels do matter, because Vegeta could have killed Cell before he absorbed the female android. Here's the thing, I think these in between levels were made to show that Goku is smarter in his training. Vegeta trains hard as hell, even harder than Goku, but when it came to mastering ssj to the point where you could walk around and sleep in that mode like Goku and Gohan did, simply busting your ass didn't work. That's why Goku and Gohan spent less than a year in there, compared to Vegeta and Trunks doing two years. That's why Vegeta and Trunks weren't walking around in ssj mode like Goku and Gohan because they didn't reach that level of mastery like they did. You keep saying Vegeta didn't train as much, nah man Vegeta trained more than anyone. That's why he became an ssj2 after the cell saga, when he was only able to train on earth, while Goku was able to train in heaven with no limitations with King Kai, fighting in that dead tournament, and not having to worry about blowing up the planet.

So again, those levels were made to show that Goku was more heads up and trained smarter than the others, and he steered Gohan in that direction too. Also, please don't mention ssj4, and dragon ball gt, that shyt isn't cannon. It also sucked too.

 

[AITheAnswerAI]

dawg read the manga, trunks hitting cell in the manga never happened bruh. the anime has plenty of shyt fillers like that.

Also they were SSJs all the time except when they slept.

Ok well i'm going off the anime. And in the time chamber they weren't ssj when the slept, but when they were chilling by the lake with Krillin, they were ssj while they were taking a nap. Remember Krillen threw that rock at Goku's head? That might not be in the manga either, but i'm going off the anime.