Alright so lets say Kakarot NEVER existed

[KingDanz]

Yes you are correct, Vegeta had a habit of pushing himself beyond the limit. That's why he nearly killed himself trying to become an ssj in the first place, which is why I don't understand how @lutha can say that Vegeta didn't train as hard as Goku. He trained just as hard if not harder than Goku, maybe not as smart, but there was no lack in intensity that's for sure.

this.

Vegeta trained harder than anyone.

 

[lutha]

@lutha Gohan was the 1st to go SSJ2. Goku didn't show him how to do it.
Seriously tho, why y'all still arguing over Super Saiyan forms. Get back to the topic. This was actually a good thread. Now y'all derailed it.

look at that part of the saga again...goku was already at ss2 when he was teaching gohan how to unleash his dormant power...that's how he knew he could reach that level....yall forget he could've beat cell, but he stopped and wanted gohan to do it...he was passing the torch...

as for the thread: my bad...wasn't trying to derail, just having db convos...as for the topic: we've already said that if there was no goku, frieza was gonna run shyt until bill came along...frieza would've been rolling deep:

ginyu
saiyans as a personal army
king cold
cooler
the cat that changed to that beast looking thing (the pretty boy, name slipping my mind)

...without goku, no one would've tried to be the strongest fighter, the androids wouldn't have gotten made, broly wouldn't have been driven insane to reach those levels, frieza wouldn't have blown up the planet out of fear, nor anyone would've had the heart to challenge frieza...yall forgetting the shyt goku was doing as a kid that lead to a lot of shyt when he got older...

 

[VegetasHairline]

Goku knew he couldn't beat Cell. He said it himself. He was betting on Gohan unleashing his potential the whole time. Goku was not a SSJ 2 at any point during the Cell Games.

 

[lutha]

Ok you're right those names like "ascended ssj" and all that are made up by fans to make sense of it all.

I still disagree with the Vegeta training thing, after the Frieza saga he nearly killed himself to become an ssj. He busted his ass for 2 years in that chamber to get stronger, and he became ssj2 on his own without having a deadly foe to push him or being in other world like Gohan and Goku had. All Vegeta did was train, Bulma even said it herself, that's all he does it train. She said that when Gohan was grown and went to visit at the beginning of the Buu saga. So Vegeta trains just as hard if not harder than Goku, I mean how the hell else is he gonna keep up without the natural talent, and without all the other world/heaven/king kai benefits?

Also you're wrong that Goku was ssj2 before the end of the Cell saga, he wasn't an ssj2. Goku didn't reach ssj2 until after the Cell saga like Vegeta, but you are correct that Gohan reached that level against Cell. Also, not only did Gohan's power level stop growing after the Cell saga, it went down a lot.

ascended isn't made up, that's the name for ss2...they even say it during the series...look at when goku fights buu...he goes through each stage of ss and says the name...

we'll just have to disagree on vegeta's training...his lack of training is why he was always playing catch-up to goku....hell, the reason he trained so hard in the first place was cause he was pissed goku was stronger than him and went ss first...just go back and look...all that gravity times whatever, he got from goku....the reason he started killing himself with training after the frieza saga, goku...but yall sleeping on the fact goku trained his whole life...i'm talking from the time he was a kid, he was training....seriously, the cat walked around everyday doing everyday shyt in weighted clothes lol....if goku would've had vegeta's mentality, he wouldn't have trained the way he did..that was the big difference between the two...

goku was ss2 before the end of the cell saga, that's why he knew gohan could do it...he just didn't beat cell cause he was passing the torch to gohan to be the protector of earth....go look at the saga again...true, his level went down, which sucked...I understand the fans wanted goku to be the man, but they didn't have to neuter gohan like that...I guess they did it to show how much of an impact goku had on him and everything....I just missed the times when gohan would be a kid and get pissed off...he was close to reaching broly levels when he got pissed....damn shame what they did to him, smh....

....been cool shooting the shyt with you....*dap*

 

[lutha]

Goku knew he couldn't beat Cell. He said it himself. He was betting on Gohan unleashing his potential the whole time. Goku was not a SSJ 2 at any point during the Cell Games.

go look at it again...he could've beat cell, he just stopped...it was the whole passing of the torch the creator wanted to do with the series...the creator has said goku could've beat cell, but since he was gonna make gohan the new protector/lead, he wrote it so goku wouldn't do it..that goku would try to instill confidence in gohan and the others....which he did by letting gohan beat cell....

 

[VegetasHairline]

I get what you're saying but Goku himself said he couldn't beat Cell and he was never a SSJ2 in the Cell Games. Gohan was the 1st to achieve SSJ2. This is acknowledged everywhere. I'm not trying to get off topic either.

 

[AB Ziggy]

look at that part of the saga again...goku was already at ss2 when he was teaching gohan how to unleash his dormant power...that's how he knew he could reach that level....yall forget he could've beat cell, but he stopped and wanted gohan to do it...he was passing the torch...

as for the thread: my bad...wasn't trying to derail, just having db convos...as for the topic: we've already said that if there was no goku, frieza was gonna run shyt until bill came along...frieza would've been rolling deep:

ginyu
saiyans as a personal army
king cold
cooler
the cat that changed to that beat looking thing (the pretty boy, name slipping my mind)

...without goku, no one would've tried to be the strongest fighter, the androids wouldn't have gotten made, broly wouldn't have been driven insane to reach those levels, frieza wouldn't have blown up the planet out of fear, nor anyone would've had the heart to challenge frieza...yall forgetting the shyt goku was doing as a kid that lead to a lot of shyt when he got older...

Wow i can't believe i'm hearing this right now.

 

[lutha]

I get what you're saying but Goku himself said he couldn't beat Cell and he was never a SSJ2 in the Cell Games. Gohan was the 1st to achieve SSJ2. This is acknowledged everywhere. I'm not trying to get off topic either.

of course he said that, the creator was writing him out the series at that point...but that doesn't mean it was true...going by what happened at that point, goku could've beat cell, but he chose not to so there could be a new protector of earth...just look at it again and read what the creator said...the reason goku knew gohan could reach ss2 was cause he was at that level himself, but he was passing the torch....but aight, we don't have to get off topic...

 

[lutha]

Wow i can't believe i'm hearing this right now.

what's so funny/hard to hear?...the series revolved around goku from the time of him being a kid...without him, no androids get created meaning no cell, vegeta doesn't revolt against frieza, frieza doesnt turn on the saiyans cause goku's father sees no reason to revolt, broly doesn't reach his legendary level cause he's not driven insane by crying, there's no one there to push piccolo, buu probably is never hatched, there is no gohan, no goten, no gotenks.....the whole series revolved around the cat...without him means frieza and his army runs shyt until bill shows up...

 

[Gallo]

Lutha you don't know what the fukk you're talking about. Hush.

 

[KingDanz]

look at that part of the saga again...goku was already at ss2 when he was teaching gohan how to unleash his dormant power...that's how he knew he could reach that level....yall forget he could've beat cell, but he stopped and wanted gohan to do it...he was passing the torch...
.

 

[lutha]

Lutha you don't know what the fukk you're talking about. Hush.

please enlighten me where i'm mistaken...how would this series that revolves around a certain character play out if you take that character away?

 

[Gallo]

please enlighten me where i'm mistaken...how would this series that revolves around a certain character play out if you take that character away?

I believe Khoff and TheAnswer have already addressed all your points block head.

 

[lutha]

what's the face for?....

 

[Supercoolmayo]

Did I just read Frieza had more power than broly?

The fukk ya'll smoking