As much as ya'll hate feminists...

[SouthernBelle]

Well, let's see: You said that my criticisms were too simple on an ideology was too nebulous, and I said that being too nebulous was not something that exempted feminism from criticism. You also said that the man hating dogma that formed the foundation of feminism wasn't the basis for it and that there was lots of disagreement while any significant disagreement was missing from your assertions. You then keep saying that I'm being too simplistic in its nature, but you don't really say how, just keep insisting that it's too simple.

You didn't say who provided a distinct counterpoint to the foundation that I outlined as being the basis for feminism, you didn't even really provide facts and figures to counter the claims that I made against feminism, and you couldn't even provide names that would have proved me wrong. For a researcher, you sure do have a weird way of establishing credibility.

And now you're projecting saying that I'm mad because you had nothing.

Well first of all the major reason I wasn't citing anything is because I was on my ipad all day. I said that earlier in the thread and I said it in another thread to Marcuz today on an unrelated topic (so I'm not dodging anything...you simply refuse to freaking read). My resources are not on the internet. They are actual books and I was not home at the time to pull quotes because I wasn't looking my shyt up on google and wikipedia.

The basis for the feminist movement was freaking women's rights and equality. That goes back to before the feminist movement even had a damn name. In the 18th century Mary Wollstonecraft wrote and advocated for equal rights for men and women and for the education of women because she felt that the lack of education was the basis for which women were seen as unequal.

It wasn't until people began theorizing and trying to explain the source of inequality that you see the three major paradigms emerge (patriarchy, marxist feminists, and psychoanalytic). The very foundations is equal rights and equal treatment NOT hate for men.

Marxist/socialist feminism focuses primarily on classes and blames oppression on capitalism.
Radical feminism focuses a lot on patriarchy and over throwing.
Liberal/equality feminism is almost the direct freaking opposite of radical feminism.


Here are some resources that you can explore on your own time. They discuss everything about feminism and all of the competing approaches. There is even an article by Dworkin in the Revising Gender book:

"Revisioning Gender" (Book by Ferree, Lorber, and Hess)
"Class Question, Feminist Answers" (Book by Joan Acker)

 

[SouthernBelle]

Well, let's see: You said that my criticisms were too simple on an ideology was too nebulous, and I said that being too nebulous was not something that exempted feminism from criticism. You also said that the man hating dogma that formed the foundation of feminism wasn't the basis for it and that there was lots of disagreement while any significant disagreement was missing from your assertions. You then keep saying that I'm being too simplistic in its nature, but you don't really say how, just keep insisting that it's too simple.

You didn't say who provided a distinct counterpoint to the foundation that I outlined as being the basis for feminism, you didn't even really provide facts and figures to counter the claims that I made against feminism, and you couldn't even provide names that would have proved me wrong. For a researcher, you sure do have a weird way of establishing credibility.

And now you're projecting saying that I'm mad because you had nothing.

Also...when did I say you were mad. I said you are making me mad by putting words in my mouth. Do you see how you misread and misinterpret everything.


Are you ever going to answer these questions that you have been dodging:

Also are you seriously going to pretend that you don't understand how I was mocking your dumb ass logic that just because I know about/study the topic that I must be a feminist? Are you seriously going to pretend that I didn't call that silly sounding in the very same post?

Also, why do you keep making up shyt that I didn't say just to suit your argument? Why do you do that when you quote and interpret what I actually said?

PLEASE answer these questions.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I responded to the part I quoted. I thought that was clear. Be honest, you didn't read that friggin essay either.

I read it. It was a little long winded but he made good points. If you read it youd know

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Well first of all the major reason I wasn't citing anything is because I was on my ipad all day. I said that earlier in the thread and I said it in another thread to Marcuz today on an unrelated topic (so I'm not dodging anything...you simply refuse to freaking read). My resources are not on the internet. They are actual books and I was not home at the time to pull quotes because I wasn't looking my shyt up on google and wikipedia.

The basis for the feminist movement was freaking women's rights and equality. That goes back to before the feminist movement even had a damn name. In the 18th century Mary Wollstonecraft write and advocated for equal rights for men and women and for the education of women because she felt that the lack of education was the basis for which women were seen as unequal.

It wasn't until people began theorizing and trying to explain the source of inequality that you see the three major paradigms emerge (patriarchy, marxist feminists, and psychoanalytic). The very foundations is equal rights and equal treatment NOT hate for men.

Here are some resources that you can explore on your own time. They discuss everything about feminism and all of the competing approaches. There is even an article by Dworkin in the Revising Gender book:

"Revisioning Gender" (Book by Ferree, Lorber, and Hess)
"Class Question, Feminist Answers" (Book by Joan Acker)

Also...when did I say you were mad. I said you are making me mad by putting words in my mouth. Do you see how you misread and misinterpret everything.


Are you ever going to answer these questions that you have been dodging:



Also, why do you keep making up shyt that I didn't say just to suit your argument? Why do you do that when you quote and interpret what I actually said?

PLEASE answer these questions.

Well today I learned that you can't look for a book title on a tablet computer. Lord knows that you had the time to respond to me, yet you couldn't use a Google search?

Mary Wollstonecraft was someone that lived hundreds of years ago, and while she herself didn't outright declare, "We must hate men!" Nothing about what she wrote and said would have precluded those that decided to embrace her ideas that men were generally bad and responsible for the state of affairs at the time.

What's more, is who is to say that when they reached the three paradigms you mentioned that resentment toward men didn't start to fester? It obviously started to come to a head over the next 200 years after building on this foundation. I can't imagine how those bases of ideas would keep them from doing it. In fact, considering the writings and quotes from the later feminists that built upon this, it seems like they'd be hard pressed to avoid it, if anything.

You said that my thoughts on feminism were influenced by my feelings, so now I'm going to wait for you to claim sarcasm on that statement since you didn't state it explicitly.

And what questions have I been dodging? What did you ask me that was so important? Are you going to take every response that I make toward you and immediately recoil with, "That's not what I meant!!!!" I'm not making anything up. At worst, I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it keeps coming off as you not liking how your answers are being countered, so you keep having to change it.

 

[SouthernBelle]

Well today I learned that you can't look for a book title on a tablet computer. Lord knows that you had the time to respond to me, yet you couldn't use a Google search?

Mary Wollstonecraft was someone that lived hundreds of years ago, and while she herself didn't outright declare, "We must hate men!" Nothing about what she wrote and said would have precluded those that decided to embrace her ideas that men were generally bad and responsible for the state of affairs at the time.

What's more, is who is to say that when they reached the three paradigms you mentioned that resentment toward men didn't start to fester? It obviously started to come to a head over the next 200 years after building on this foundation. I can't imagine how those bases of ideas would keep them from doing it. In fact, considering the writings and quotes from the later feminists that built upon this, it seems like they'd be hard pressed to avoid it, if anything.

You said that my thoughts on feminism were influenced by my feelings, so now I'm going to wait for you to claim sarcasm on that statement since you didn't state it explicitly.

And what questions have I been dodging? What did you ask me that was so important? Are you going to take every response that I make toward you and immediately recoil with, "That's not what I meant!!!!" I'm not making anything up. At worst, I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it keeps coming off as you not liking how your answers are being countered, so you keep having to change it.

Copying and pasting things on an ipad is freaking difficult even when I am using my stylus. It is a personal preference and this thread ISN'T the first time I've expressed the idea that I wasn't going to do any extra searching because I was on my ipad. Hell I don't even like to type one my damn ipad especially when I don't have my bluetooth keyboard. And yes, I could have looked up books on the internet, but I wanted to reference the books that actually really talked about the foundations and the different approaches.

Also, the foundations of feminism didn't begin in the damn 1960s. Wollstonecraft's ideologies are apart of liberal feminism which is OPPOSED to radical feminism that focus on misandry. They are completely against those ideals so stop trying to change her argument to suit your cause. Those are the very foundations of feminism not what came in the 1960s. There are still liberal feminist who reject misandry, rape-culture/anti-porongraphy views. Wollstonecraft's view are alive and well and still opposed to the views that you have advocated for and love so much.

Also, you keep making up things I didn't say. That is what I want you to answer for. Why do you keep doing that? I keep asking you what I am supposed to refute. The only thing I didn't like about your answer and that I continued to complain about was you trying to tell what I mean, how I felt, my personal ideologies after I addressed them time and again. I acknowledged that rape culture and etc are a facet of feminism, but that is not the sole voice in the movement (you keep arguing that it is the foundation).

My recoils have been "can you please quote me because that's not what I SAID...USE MY WORDS....RESPOND TO WHAT I SAID INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU HOPED I SAID." Instead of actually pushing the quote button and using my words, you make up your own version and act like I am suppose to argue for shyt that you made up just so you can stick to your talking points regarding patriarchy and rape culture.

I also want to know why you are playing stupid and acting like you can't comprehend. I'm sure everyone else understand that I mocked you for being silly and you accused me of trying to attack you because I didn't have an argument. :child please: Even in the post that said those things...I called them silly. Were you too dense to understand that or are you just pretending because you feel silly that you didn't even get the sarcasm?

 

[jilla82]

I've been a feminist since I was 15, although I only really called myself one when I started listening to Le Tigre at 21 and realized that feminism wasn't all about man-hating.

thought i would never see Le Tigre on here...one of my fav groups.
but i still like a girl that shaves

 

[electric_fur]

thought i would never see Le Tigre on here...one of my fav groups.
but i still like a girl that shaves

I shave. haha, in fact I am getting laser hair removal on my armpits.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0idmTWxFs1A"]Le Tigre - Hot Topic - YouTube[/ame]

I also listen to MEN.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGF94Q9J-Pk"]JD Samson & MEN - Off Our Backs - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Copying and pasting things on an ipad is freaking difficult even when I am using my stylus. It is a personal preference and this thread ISN'T the first time I've expressed the idea that I wasn't going to do any extra searching because I was on my ipad. Hell I don't even like to type one my damn ipad especially when I don't have my bluetooth keyboard. And yes, I could have looked up books on the internet, but I wanted to reference the books that actually really talked about the foundations and the different approaches.

Also, the foundations of feminism didn't begin in the damn 1960s. Wollstonecraft's ideologies are apart of liberal feminism which is OPPOSED to radical feminism that focus on misandry. They are completely against those ideals so stop trying to change her argument to suit your cause. Those are the very foundations of feminism not what came in the 1960s. There are still liberal feminist who reject misandry, rape-culture/anti-porongraphy views. Wollstonecraft's view are alive and well and still opposed to the views that you have advocated for and love so much.

Also, you keep making up things I didn't say. That is what I want you to answer for. Why do you keep doing that? I keep asking you what I am supposed to refute. The only thing I didn't like about your answer and that I continued to complain about was you trying to tell what I mean, how I felt, my personal ideologies after I addressed them time and again. I acknowledged that rape culture and etc are a facet of feminism, but that is not the sole voice in the movement (you keep arguing that it is the foundation).

My recoils have been "can you please quote me because that's not what I SAID...USE MY WORDS....RESPOND TO WHAT I SAID INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU HOPED I SAID." Instead of actually pushing the quote button and using my words, you make up your own version and act like I am suppose to argue for shyt that you made up just so you can stick to your talking points regarding patriarchy and rape culture.

I also want to know why you are playing stupid and acting like you can't comprehend. I'm sure everyone else understand that I mocked you for being silly and you accused me of trying to attack you because I didn't have an argument. :child please: Even in the post that said those things...I called them silly. Were you too dense to understand that or are you just pretending because you feel silly that you didn't even get the sarcasm?

In response to your first two paragraphs: which ideology evolved from the other, and which is in control right now? I mean, let's be real here: There wasn't much pornography to be against then, and the traditional values of the time, and expression of male sexuality hadn't really had much time to be despised as something as a malignant presence in society.

I'm not making up anything you're not saying. For the millionth time, I'm saying what I'm interpreting from you and it looks like you're trying to dodge answers by changing them when I respond to you. And considering that I explained that faux quote 2384289574 posts ago, I don't know why you keep bringing it up (assuming that's what you're referring to). When you ask me why I keep doing this, it sounds more like a rhetorical whine than a question that I really need to address.

Also, I've quoted you directly and still didn't really respond, acting as if I didn't quote you, then turning around and acting like you're not changing your argument like crazy the whole time to keep from getting your points pinned down. Are you sure that you didn't realize that you weren't coming off kinda dumb when you sent that message and now you're trying to pretend that you were being sarcastic? I mean you've made it a point that you were sarcastic about it for about 5 posts now and you won't seem to let it go.

 

[electric_fur]

And I said that I didn't like feminism because a huge part of it and the most active part of it DOES center around the patriarchy and rape culture myths. Women's concerns can be addressed without it. It's more intense than necessary. And for as little as I posted, you still couldn't match that.

It's also not my fault that you provided nothing of a counter argument besides a claim that it was too complicated to criticize so I should just refrain from it all together. Then you got really mad and started with personal insults because you couldn't really support what you were saying.

Your view is very typical of men who have bought into the mainstream version of feminism. I'm not saying you're stupid here for believing it, but it's not really looking deeper into anything. It's synonymous with hating Islam for the wacked out bombers and their fukked up ideologies.

 

[Liquid]

Feminists........

Dr. Warren Farrell & Barbara Walters: The Myth of Male Power - YouTube


'Patriarchy' is a myth.

Men make more money for the same work is a myth.

Women are the most likely victims of violence is a myth.

Deadbeat dads is a myth.

Women are poorer than men is a myth.

FOH you lying pieces of shyt.


​

I am about to give the first hour a listen. Let's see how this goes.

 

[SouthernBelle]

In response to your first two paragraphs: which ideology evolved from the other, and which is in control right now? I mean, let's be real here: There wasn't much pornography to be against then, and the traditional values of the time, and expression of male sexuality hadn't really had much time to be despised as something as a malignant presence in society.

I'm not making up anything you're not saying. For the millionth time, I'm saying what I'm interpreting from you and it looks like you're trying to dodge answers by changing them when I respond to you. And considering that I explained that faux quote 2384289574 posts ago, I don't know why you keep bringing it up (assuming that's what you're referring to). When you ask me why I keep doing this, it sounds more like a rhetorical whine than a question that I really need to address.

Also, I've quoted you directly and still didn't really respond, acting as if I didn't quote you, then turning around and acting like you're not changing your argument like crazy the whole time to keep from getting your points pinned down. Are you sure that you didn't realize that you weren't coming off kinda dumb when you sent that message and now you're trying to pretend that you were being sarcastic? I mean you've made it a point that you were sarcastic about it for about 5 posts now and you won't seem to let it go.

What argument did I change? I have had the same argument from the beginning. There are multiple facets to the women's movement and that they are equally pertinent. I keep saying the same shyt over and over again and you keep trying to turn it into something else. There is nothing to interpret about that statement. It is very clear and direct.

I won't let it go because you are pretending like I am trying to change something. I was making fun of you for accusing of being a feminist simply because I've read books and have an opinion about it.

Dude. In every single thread I've ever posted in, I have stood by what I said 100% of the time. I don't have a reason to try and change my argument. I keep saying the same thing over and over again. Nothing has changed. The only issue that happens is when you try to twist what I say to mean what you want it to mean. I stand by every single post I have made.

Dude I have been very clear and consistent. There are multiple facets to the women's movement. They are all pertinent. What the fukk is hard to understand about that? Why do you keep trying to spin it to what you want it to be?

You said that I didn't cite anything and when I did you tried to flip what she meant. You can't do that Daygo. Again, liberal feminism is ALIVE AND WELL. It is considered more mainstream than the men hating one. That is the type of feminism that most modern women subscribe too. Electric fur JUST made a comment alluded to that. The only type that has really lost traction is historical materialist feminism and radical continues to become more unpopular.

What have I tried to dodge? When I got home, I cited shyt, explained everything. What else do you want Daygo? You lost. Get over it.

 

[Turbulent]

Your view is very typical of men who have bought into the mainstream version of feminism. I'm not saying you're stupid here for believing it, but it's not really looking deeper into anything. It's synonymous with hating Islam for the wacked out bombers and their fukked up ideologies.

i think you said the word. whatever the mainstream paints as feminism that's what a lot of people hate. the rape culture patriarchy hate stuff. I have no idea if that is real feminism but whoever that those groups that keep screaming at men "rape culture!!!" that's who we dislike.

if the real principles of feminism are about empowering women and also educating them on the responsiility that comes with the new options and then they are free to choose, then i can agree with that. if it's about equality everywhere i might have some issues with certain things but a discussion can take place. I just think too many people want to pick and choose when to be a feminist, and when to be a "helpless lady". but overall yeah, more options for women, that's cool.

 

[jilla82]

I shave. haha, in fact I am getting laser hair removal on my armpits.

Le Tigre - Hot Topic - YouTube

I also listen to MEN.

ha...I was just about to ask you about Hot Topic. At the end of the song they start saying names of women...I swear I hear them say Mia X...are they talking about

Or is there another Mia X (ive always wondered that)?



as far as this thread....its an example of bad information (I bet it stems from Tariq Nasheed...who im a fan of, but he talks out his ass about certain subjects)... and meeting one person that is an extreme version of a feminist.

Its like a white person passing by a black Israelite and thinking any black person that says they are proud to be black is that extreme.

My girl calls herself a feminist and she cooks and cleans everyday .
Its more about letting women have the freedom to do what they want. Some dont want to live by the typical rules of society, some dont...whats the big deal

 

[Wild self]

Funny how these same women that claim that they are feminist would actually be with a dominant man sexually than a feminist man that kisses their ass. Guess sexual desirability is the great equalizer after all.

 

[MouseTeeth]

hoes were bein hoes givin up the p*ssy since the dawn of time. Except b4 the sexual revolution they had shame, now bytches revel in being soulless Scalliwags.