Bill Simmons says he'll take Nash ahead of Iverson

[holidayinn21]

Iverson stans gonna cling to 2001 forever, even though he never made a CF before or after that year, and only made it out the first round once after 01.

With that said, I would take him over Nash by small mar

 

[Supreme365]

So is Iverson getting past those Spurs teams

with that suns roster and a prime ai
It’s definitely possible
Overall would’ve been averaging around 26 and 8 with great shooting splits on that suns team
About 2.5 steals a game
Putting the leagues faster player on the most uptempo, shot heavy team sounds like a dream tandem
People don’t realize just how nice ai was
That sixers team was slow with no shooting or post presence yet ai still won 4 scoring titles and had them in the playoffs damn near every year for about a 7 year stretch

 

[Consumed]

'04-'05 Suns starting 5 was

Nash - MVP, better than AI..."blossoming" at 30
Q-Rich
Iso Joe
Matrix - All-NBA, 20pt 10rb guy with great D
Stat - All-NBA beast dropping 26 a night




In D'antoni's system.... looking back on it, if Nash is supposed to be this all-time great player, they should've ran off 70 plus games and won the chip on some Warriors shyt

You're probably just exaggerating on purpose to make Nash look worse.

but if you're serious with the Warriors comparison, them being elite on both ends of the court is why they were so successful even pre KD. In 2015 their defense was better than their offense per relative league average (something a lot their detractors like Barkley missed). Actually one of the best of the era. The Suns being so successful despite having a defense that hovered around league average is impressive. It is usually the balanced teams that contend in the NBA.

The Suns lost Stoudamire (3 games played) and Joe Johnson in 2006. Still won 56 games and made the WCF. Minutes were replaced by Kurt Thomas (for 50 games) and Raja Bell and still had an elite offense that was five points above league average. Johnson also missed the first two games of the '05 WCF after breaking his face in the Mavericks series. Suns lost those games by a combined margin of ten points. This is the second time someone mentioned Quentin Richardson as if he were anything more than a volume spot up shooter. That support isn't nearly as good as you think.

 

[Long Live The Kane]

You're probably just exaggerating on purpose to make Nash look worse.

but if you're serious with the Warriors comparison, them being elite on both ends of the court is why they were so successful even pre KD. In 2015 their defense was better than their offense per relative league average (something a lot their detractors like Barkley missed). Actually one of the best of the era. The Suns being so successful despite having a defense that hovered around league average is impressive. It is usually the balanced teams that contend in the NBA.

The Suns lost Stoudamire (3 games played) and Joe Johnson in 2006. Still won 56 games and made the WCF. Minutes were replaced by Kurt Thomas (for 50 games) and Raja Bell and still had an elite offense that was five points above league average. Johnson also missed the first two games of the '05 WCF after breaking his face in the Mavericks series. Suns lost those games by a combined margin of ten points. This is the second time someone mentioned Quentin Richardson as if he were anything more than a volume spot up shooter. That support isn't nearly as good as you think.

So Nash's biggest weakness, defense, is why they lost...gotcha duly noted

And oh wow, the next year they had to struggle with only one in prime All nba, Allstar forward to pair with their MVP better than prime Iverson superstar instead of two...lol... I'm tired of hearing the sob stories and all the "poor Nash " narratives while ranking him above CLEARLY better players based on the team success of a stacked team that DIDN'T WIN shyt... muhfukkas will sit and "but but but..." and excuse away his entire career

 

[mastermind]

Can you imagine as a GM you take Nash as the first pick in that draft? And given how un ready he was for the NBA you'd lose your job.

Well one, you take the guy who you project to have the better career.

Second, how was Nash unready? He went to Phoenix who had Kevin Johnson in his late prime and just acquired Jason Kidd. None of that shows Nash wasn’t ready for the NBA.

 

[Consumed]

So Nash's biggest weakness, defense, is why they lost...gotcha duly noted

And oh wow, the next year they had to struggle with only one in prime All nba, Allstar forward to pair with their MVP better than prime Iverson superstar instead of two...lol... I'm tired of hearing the sob stories and all the "poor Nash " narratives while ranking him above CLEARLY better players based on the team success of a stacked team that DIDN'T WIN shyt... muhfukkas will sit and "but but but..." and excuse away his entire career

Defense was Iverson's biggest weakness, and the team would continue to be weak defensively with Iverson.

Marion is one of the most overrated players by fans who confuse his versatility for actual impact. The Suns won 29 games in 2004 with prime Shawn Marion. The Suns were perpetually one of the worst offenses in the league with prime Shawn Marion before Nash. He was a very limited creator, both for himself and others, and reliant on getting the ball in ideal positions to score. And though he was a very versatile defender who could be a key piece on an elite defense, his defensive influence wasn't evident on a team that got murdered on the glass and couldn't stop people with any consistency. Never a guy who could single handedly flip the performance of a defensive unit in the way his peers could. Never the type of player that can serve as a franchise cornerstone as you would expect from a All-NBA player. The value that Nash brought to Phoenix is more or less reason you remember his prime.

Again, the Suns were not as stacked as you seem to think. A stacked team doesn't lose their identity when one player leaves them, as the Suns would often do when Nash left the court. A stacked team is also a BALANCED team. The Suns were not balanced, they were heavily skewed towards offense. and who drove that offense? They were a flawed team that won more than they should have in large part because of their all-time great offensive anchor.

One team wins a title every season. Everyone else "didn't win shyt". You are being ridiculous if you discredit the players of every other team that falls short of a title. That does not mean they aren't great. Lots of greats have no hardware to their name as prime players.

You and several others seem to think that "swap player A and B, whose team is better" scenarios are a good measurement of player value. They are not. Iverson would be a worse fit than Nash on teams that do not need a single player to monopolize the offense, which just so happens to be most great NBA teams who sustain success over a long period of time rather than the flash in a pan that was Iverson's 2001 season. The Nuggets were just fine when Billups replaced Iverson in 2009 as they didn't need a player opposite Carmelo taking 20 shots a game. They needed a guard who was willing to get the ball out of their hands if nothing was there, take what the defense gave them and be very efficient with their possessions. But you'll ignore that, and only focus on things that can be skewed against Nash as you cannot accept that he's better than Iverson.

 

[Long Live The Kane]

Defense was Iverson's biggest weakness, and the team would continue to be weak defensively with Iverson.

Marion is one of the most overrated players by fans who confuse his versatility for actual impact. The Suns won 29 games in 2004 with prime Shawn Marion. The Suns were perpetually one of the worst offenses in the league with prime Shawn Marion before Nash. He was a very limited creator, both for himself and others, and reliant on getting the ball in ideal positions to score. And though he was a very versatile defender who could be a key piece on an elite defense, his defensive influence wasn't evident on a team that got murdered on the glass and couldn't stop people with any consistency. Never a guy who could single handedly flip the performance of a defensive unit in the way his peers could. Never the type of player that can serve as a franchise cornerstone as you would expect from a All-NBA player. The value that Nash brought to Phoenix is more or less reason you remember his prime.

Again, the Suns were not as stacked as you seem to think. A stacked team doesn't lose their identity when one player leaves them, as the Suns would often do when Nash left the court. A stacked team is also a BALANCED team. The Suns were not balanced, they were heavily skewed towards offense. and who drove that offense? They were a flawed team that won more than they should have in large part because of their all-time great offensive anchor.

One team wins a title every season. Everyone else "didn't win shyt". You are being ridiculous if you discredit the players of every other team that falls short of a title. That does not mean they aren't great. Lots of greats have no hardware to their name as prime players.

.

gotcha again...Marion wasn’t shyt, overrated and not deserving of his All-NBA selection ...I’d argue that he’s one of the most underrated players of his era...as he was a huge part of what made that SSOL suns team go and gets ZERO credit for it ...was a early prototype for the small ball big that’s coveted today...but yeah damn all that, strike it all from the books...his entire legacy from that era is erased so to allow for more Nash dikkeating...never mind the fact that the moment they traded Matrix, SSOL died, D’Antoni is forced out, Nash fell back to earth, they get eliminated in the first round one year, and don’t make the playoffs the next ...y’all love harping on that 29 win season, but ignore the fact they were that bad cause they traded Marbury for basically nothing early and basically played more than half the season with no point guard...year before that, they won like 48 games and were in the playoffs

and I keep harping on the fact the suns never even made a finals because Nash is leap frogging players whose jock strap he couldn’t hold in real time...because of the team “success” of a team that didn’t actually accomplish shyt ...he gets more of a legacy bump for a couple year run getting eliminated in the 2nd and 3rd rounds than a lot of players get for winning rings, it’s mind boggling

You and several others seem to think that "swap player A and B, whose team is better" scenarios are a good measurement of player value. They are not. Iverson would be a worse fit than Nash on teams that do not need a single player to monopolize the offense, which just so happens to be most great NBA teams who sustain success over a long period of time rather than the flash in a pan that was Iverson's 2001 season. The Nuggets were just fine when Billups replaced Iverson in 2009 as they didn't need a player opposite Carmelo taking 19 shots a game. They needed a guard who was efficient with their possessions and willing to get the ball out of their hands if nothing was there. But you'll ignore that, and only focus on things that can be skewed against Nash as you cannot accept that he's better than Iverson

Just like the ‘04 Mavs (ANOTHER stacked team Nash was on that DIDNT WIN JACK shyt)...got better when they let Nash walk for nothing and were in the finals within a season of him leaving?

 

[Consumed]

gotcha again...Marion wasn’t shyt, overrated and not deserving of his All-NBA selection ...I’d argue that he’s one of the most underrated players of his era...as he was a huge part of what made that SSOL suns team go and gets ZERO credit for it ...was a early prototype for the small ball big that’s coveted today...but yeah damn all that, strike it all from the books...his entire legacy from that era is erased so to allow for more Nash dikkeating...never mind the fact that the moment they traded Matrix, SSOL died, D’Antoni is forced out, Nash fell back to earth, they get eliminated in the first round one year, and don’t make the playoffs the next ...y’all love harping on that 29 win season, but ignore the fact they were that bad cause they traded Marbury for basically nothing early and basically played more than half the season with no point guard...year before that, they won like 48 games and were in the playoffs

and I keep harping on the fact the suns never even made a finals because Nash is leap frogging players whose jock strap he couldn’t hold in real time...because of the team “success” of a team that didn’t actually accomplish shyt ...he gets more of a legacy bump for a couple year run getting eliminated in the 2nd and 3rd rounds than a lot of players get for winning rings, it’s mind boggling



Just like the ‘04 Mavs (ANOTHER stacked team Nash was on that DIDNT WIN JACK shyt)...got better when they let Nash walk for nothing and were in the finals within a season of him leaving?

tell me what Marion did to make the SSOL team "go". He's not underrated, at all. When his name is mentioned people do remember his versatility. What isn't remembered are his weaknesses as a creator, and how he "led" defenses that were middling at best. He didn't direct the strengths of the Phoenix suns team. That was Nash. Marion was a cog in the machine. Nash made the machine work. Draymond on the Warriors pre KD is far more influential than Marion ever was for any team in his entire career. Marion may be a prototype, but he didn't perfect the style.

Marion wasn't on the team in 2010 when the Suns had the best offense in the league and made the conference finals only to lose the eventual champion Lakers. They swept the Spurs that year. The next season the Suns did miss the playoffs. But what happened when Nash was on the floor? Suns had a 114 ortg in over 2400 minutes (best offense in the league was at 111 ortg), without MDA, with a much slower pace, and with Nash at 36 years old losing a lot of his off the bounce pop. He led a lineup of Robin Lopez, 38 y/o Grant Hill, 34 y/o Vince Carter and Channing Frye to a 111 ortg. Only one star in that lineup. Elite offense. Impact is still relevant even after a decline, after pieces around him left, unlike Shawn Marion.

So what you're saying is the Suns were really hurt by not having a reliable primary ball handler. You never stopped to ask why Shawn Marion couldn't assume that role? You don't think it's a flaw for a supposed franchise player to not be able to have offense run through them and the team to fall apart with no lead ball handler because he's not a good passer or isolation scorer? That's why he's overrated. You don't factor in how his below average handles and having zero jumpshot versatility made him a limited player.

Age and health concerns were reasons that Dallas let Nash walk. In 2004 he battled a bad back after spending much of his early years struggling with injuries, and the Mavericks moved Dirk to center instead of pairing him with a defensive center causing their defense to tank. They had Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker as forwards alongside Dirk. The following year they lost both those sieves, moved Dirk back to PF, paired him with defensive centers. The Mavericks were still "only" 44-22 with Don Nelson (worse win percentage than in 2004, with Nash), then they changed coaches and were 16-2 to end the year. under Avery Johnson. Then they faced Nash''s new team in the postseason and he cooked them




In 2003 the Mavericks had a top ten defense, best offense in the league, went to the WCF and lost DIrk after three games. They won game five on the road in SA without DIrk. And you think that team couldn't reach the finals and win a title? Nash/Dirk powered some of the best offenses of the era, together, They were a great fit. The issues were more so related to health and unfortunate circumstances.

You very clearly don't understand how to evaluate basketball on a impact level. You don't see what Nash did for his respectives teams offense, with a WIDE RANGE of teammates around him that didn't change the result of elite offense with him as a common denominator. You look at championships and Finals appearances as a measure of player value. You don't use context when making sweeping claims against players you don't understand the value of. You are fiercely defending a guy that no one builds a team around (Marion) while trashing another guy who was the focal point of one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of basketball.

 

[NYC Rebel]

Was watching this not too long ago. The bald guys shots at A.I. were steeped in




"He kept it "real"...congrats."
"He was anti-corporate...cool, I guess."

Yall going to avoid this part?

This was part of the racist gang-up AI dealt with all of his career. These cacs can't put it down. It's in their blood. AI repped hate of the 90's young black man. I wouldn't give you dudes the satisfaction of putting Nash over him even if I believed it.

 

[SlurRty]

In a re-draft of the 96 draft. Nash over Iverson . He also says he'll take Ray Allen ahead of Iverson.

So basically he has Iverson going fourth

He's not wrong, it depends what you're trying to build. Nash can play with a lotta different teams with alotta different attributes. You have to build a certain type of team around AI. I don't think AI would play well with another bonafide scorer. AI needs rebounders and defenders around him and you run your whole offense through AI while others just play their role. It worked too.

 

[Long Live The Kane]

tell me what Marion did to make the SSOL team "go". He's not underrated, at all. When his name is mentioned people do remember his versatility. What isn't remembered are his weaknesses as a creator, and how he "led" defenses that were middling at best. He didn't direct the strengths of the Phoenix suns team. That was Nash. Marion was a cog in the machine. Nash made the machine work. Draymond on the Warriors pre KD is far more influential than Marion ever was for any team in his entire career. Marion may be a prototype, but he didn't perfect the style.

Marion wasn't on the team in 2010 when the Suns had the best offense in the league and made the conference finals only to lose the eventual champion Lakers. They swept the Spurs that year. The next season the Suns did miss the playoffs. But what happened when Nash was on the floor? Suns had a 114 ortg in over 2400 minutes (best offense in the league was at 111 ortg), without MDA, with a much slower pace, and with Nash at 36 years old losing a lot of his off the bounce pop. He led a lineup of Robin Lopez, 38 y/o Grant Hill, 34 y/o Vince Carter and Channing Frye to a 111 ortg. Only one star in that lineup. Elite offense. Impact is still relevant even after a decline, after pieces around him left, unlike Shawn Marion.

So what you're saying is the Suns were really hurt by not having a reliable primary ball handler. You never stopped to ask why Shawn Marion couldn't assume that role? You don't think it's a flaw for a supposed franchise player to not be able to have offense run through them and the team to fall apart with no lead ball handler because he's not a good passer or isolation scorer? That's why he's overrated. You don't factor in how his below average handles and having zero jumpshot versatility made him a limited player.

Age and health concerns were reasons that Dallas let Nash walk. In 2004 he battled a bad back after spending much of his early years struggling with injuries, and the Mavericks moved Dirk to center instead of pairing him with a defensive center causing their defense to tank. They had Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker as forwards alongside Dirk. The following year they lost both those sieves, moved Dirk back to PF, paired him with defensive centers. The Mavericks were still "only" 44-22 with Don Nelson (worse win percentage than in 2004, with Nash), then they changed coaches and were 16-2 to end the year. under Avery Johnson. Then they faced Nash''s new team in the postseason and he cooked them




In 2003 the Mavericks had a top ten defense, best offense in the league, went to the WCF and lost DIrk after three games. They won game five on the road in SA without DIrk. And you think that team couldn't reach the finals and win a title? Nash/Dirk powered some of the best offenses of the era, together, They were a great fit. The issues were more so related to health and unfortunate circumstances.

You very clearly don't understand how to evaluate basketball on a impact level. You don't see what Nash did for his respectives teams offense, with a WIDE RANGE of teammates around him that didn't change the result of elite offense with him as a common denominator. You look at championships and Finals appearances as a measure of player value. You don't use context when making sweeping claims against players you don't understand the value of. You are fiercely defending a guy that no one builds a team around (Marion) while trashing another guy who was the focal point of one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of basketball.

dog nowhere did I say Shawn Marion was a franchise player ...so pretty much none of this entire post has shyt to do with anything...what I said was that he was an important part of what made the system what it was... the year Amare was out he led the suns in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, minutes, games ...was their best defender...and you’re asking me with a straight face what he did to help the team and the system go ...the guy gets no credit for any of it, is largely forgotten to history completely...just to have some one like you call him overrated for no other reason than to further prop up Steve Nash in a thread where’s he’s being elevated over Iverson


It’s fukking disgusting

and more but but buts and what ifs, never saw such cop pleaing for a player in my life....a whole career of “all time great offenses” solely accredited to a player that somehow managed to not play a single game in the finals... multiple stacked teams filled with an assortment of all nba teammates and even a first ballot HOF’er...and Nash is the common denominator in them not winning a goddamned thing

 

[Consumed]

dog nowhere did I say Shawn Marion was a franchise player ...so pretty much none of this entire post has shyt to do with anything...what I said was that he was an important part of what made the system what it was... the year Amare was out he led the suns in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, minutes, games ...was their best defender...and you’re asking me with a straight face what he did to help the team and the system go ...the guy gets no credit for any of it, is largely forgotten to history completely...just to have some one like you call him overrated for no other reason than to further prop up Steve Nash in a thread where’s he’s being elevated over Iverson


It’s fukking disgusting

and more but but buts and what ifs, never saw such cop pleaing for a player in my life....a whole career of “all time great offenses” solely accredited to a player that somehow managed to not play a single game in the finals... multiple stacked teams filled with an assortment of all nba teammates and even a first ballot HOF’er...and Nash is the common denominator in them not winning a goddamned thing

Without explaining why he was an important part of what made the system what it was. You only brought up Marion's All-NBA teams and All Star Appearances. Then I gave you the context and you don't want to hear it. I explained to you why Marion had less influence than you seem to think. He did not drive their success, Nash did.

Yes. I'm telling you that because their defense still wasn't good and wasn't the reason they won consistently. It was their offense. And who led their offense? Nash. Nash led one of the best offenses in 2010 without Marion who just wasn't very impactful offensively for the Suns. Marion isn't forgotten in history. Make a thread about him in any active NBA forum and you'll get a bunch of replies talking about how they respect The Matrix. He was a popular player during his time and is remembered by fans now. Its when you get into the nuances of his game that you spot the flaws and find that his reputation is lesser than reality. He looks a lot better on a basketball reference page than reality.

I'm calling him overrated for the reasons you showed in your posts. Talking about his numbers and accolades with zero nuance into his specific strengths and weaknesses. Saying he led the team in points while leaving out he was assisted on 75% of his own offense (80% in the playoffs), majority of which guess by who. Saying that the support around Nash should've led to a 70 win team and a title because of pieces like Marion (how this conversation started), Richardson, Joe Johnson, and Amare. Ignoring what the flaws of those pieces were and how dependent they were on Nash to succeed on a team level.

I just gave you circumstances of what happened to the Mavericks in 2003 and Suns in 2005, 2006 with Dirk and Johnson's and Amare's injuries respectively and you ignored them either because you didn't read it (likely) or are too set in your ways to judge the comparison fairly. Your last sentence there, if not trolling, explains why you can't understand why he's considered among the greats. You have no idea how to evaluate player importance to team and how many variables are in play en route to a championship run.

 

[Joe Sixpack]

nothing, he was washed at that point reason why the 6ers got rid of him

but prime AI vs Nash it’s AI 10 out of 10

He wasn’t washed in Denver

You dudes can’t even get the facts right.

 

[Apprentice]

nikkas really in here arguing AI was a better shooter than Nash lmaooo

y’all really foolish mane

 

[Long Live The Kane]

Without explaining why he was an important part of what made the system what it was. You only brought up Marion's All-NBA teams and All Star Appearances. Then I gave you the context and you don't want to hear it. I explained to you why Marion had less influence than you seem to think. He did not drive their success, Nash did.

Yes. I'm telling you that because their defense still wasn't good and wasn't the reason they won consistently. It was their offense. And who led their offense? Nash. Nash led one of the best offenses in 2010 without Marion who just wasn't very impactful offensively for the Suns. Marion isn't forgotten in history. Make a thread about him in any active NBA forum and you'll get a bunch of replies talking about how they respect The Matrix. He was a popular player during his time and is remembered by fans now. Its when you get into the nuances of his game that you spot the flaws and find that his reputation is lesser than reality. He looks a lot better on a basketball reference page than reality.

I'm calling him overrated for the reasons you showed in your posts. Talking about his numbers and accolades with zero nuance into his specific strengths and weaknesses. Saying that the support around Nash should've led to a 70 win team and a title because of pieces like Marion (how this conversation started), Richardson, Joe Johnson, and Amare. Ignoring what the flaws of those pieces were and how dependent they were on Nash to succeed on a team level.

I just gave you circumstances of what happened to the Mavericks in 2003 and Suns in 2005, 2006 with Dirk and Johnson's and Amare's injuries respectively and you ignored them either because you didn't read it (likely) or are too set in your ways to judge the comparison fairly. Your last sentence there, if not trolling, explains why you can't understand why he's considered among the greats.

Naw I read all of that bullshyt, but it’s what called on this board “juelz’ing”....and has shifted in the last couple of posts to some try-hard condescending bullshyt about “what I don’t understand”....boy If you don’t get your cornball ass the fukk outta here with that....I “understand” your posts, I just don’t agree with them...“

Great” is a vague term that can mean a bunch of things...we’re in a thread with two prominent basketball media members elevating Steve Nash, retroactively, above Allen Iverson....and lowering AI not just below Nash, but Ray Allen also...mainly based on relative team success, while ignoring the context of their careers....so every post that I make is through that lens....I flatly don’t agree with players getting huge legacy boosts based on the team success of teams that didn’t actually accomplish anything....it’s lunacy....I flatly don’t give a flying fukk about the offensive rating of teams whose ceiling is winning a 2nd round series ...not when we’re talking bout jumping dudes ahead of other players ....shyt is like empty calories....your attempts at explaining away an entire career worth of Nash not winning shyt, while simultaneously fellating him for being in more advantageous situations than AI is nonsensical....add that to you tearing down Nash’s teammates for no reason other than to give Nash credit for everything, and we’re both wasting our time....all of this “bu bu but see what had happened was blah blah blah...that’s why Nash never won shyt”...i can do that with Ivo’s whole career cause he was never gifted with those stacked squads to begin with...and I’m no way a Ivo stan, so I won’t even just start spotting him finals and chips in hypotheticals...but I’m jumping Nash in front of him for playing on better teams his entire career and doing nothing with them

the suns biggest strength was their offense, which 100% of the credit goes to Nash...so Marion who was their leading scorer and their best defender shouldn’t get any credit for the team success because despite of his efforts on defense, they were a middling defensive team...largely because Nash was a historic sieve on that end


Yeah aiight man