Capitalism Didn't Replace Slavery, It Scaled It

Diyhai

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can't agree with the premise of the video
if workers created the value they wouldn't need to work for someone they would work for themselves
their labor only has value due to the environment created by the person " who exploits them"
being very good at basketball is worthless outside the system of the NBA
just like most of the labor or knowledge work people do is worthless outside of the context that the business owners provide
its like Uber people can pick up people and take them on rides by themselves
but they use Uber app because its a system they benefit from
There always going to be a negotiation between what someone feels they should be paid and what someone wants to pay you
 

CopiousX

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can't agree with the premise of the video
if workers created the value they wouldn't need to work for someone they would work for themselves
their labor only has value due to the environment created by the person " who exploits them"
being very good at basketball is worthless outside the system of the NBA
just like most of the labor or knowledge work people do is worthless outside of the context that the business owners provide

There always going to be a negotiation between what someone feels they should be paid and what someone wants to pay you
Its case by case. Some people have production roles at work while other people have support roles.


Every single production role can be monetized independently of the employer. Its the difference between HR/middle mgmt/surgical tech and the sales/factory worker/surgeon. The production workers ARE THE SYSTEM that creates support roles. They are the value in its entirety.



Its not necessarily the system, but fear of risk that keeps production workers from monetizing their value. Its why doctors/nurses/cooks/farm hands work w2 jobs when they can very easily sell their services independently, with a higher earnings cap if they believed in themselves.


its like Uber people can pick up people and take them on rides by themselves
but they use Uber app because its a system they benefit from


Drivers are most definitely production workers so this is inaccurate.

For the example, couriers and transit drivers have existed for more than a century before uber. Hell, taxi companies could be started by a single person in most major cities with a car, a city permit, and bussiness phone number. So i disagree with your last point.


These guys really don't benefit from the system at all, Because their earning capacity and earnings cap was much higher as taxi drivers or couriers or transit drivers or limo drivers before uber. They just arent willing to take the risk to directly sell their product.
 
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No, Capitalism at its core doesn't need a bottom class to exploit

We could all live well if wages were kept up and products kept reasonably priced. Someone who worked at a warehouse in the 50s could afford a home, stay at home wife, and kids all under the guise of Capitalism. Greed is what shipped jobs overseas, raised the prices of cars, and kept wages stagnant.

Actually, Marxist dialetic theory discussed this 150 years ago

Capitalists need profit and always squeeze labor to generate profits. This generates crises of capitalism, as the consumer pool for products created by the workers themselves shrinks, as their wages also fall.

Eventually, workers embrace anti capitalism because of this contradiction
 

2 Up 2 Down

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can't agree with the premise of the video
if workers created the value they wouldn't need to work for someone they would work for themselves
their labor only has value due to the environment created by the person " who exploits them"
being very good at basketball is worthless outside the system of the NBA
just like most of the labor or knowledge work people do is worthless outside of the context that the business owners provide
its like Uber people can pick up people and take them on rides by themselves
but they use Uber app because its a system they benefit from
There always going to be a negotiation between what someone feels they should be paid and what someone wants to pay you
The worker exploitation by the employer is the issue not the labor.
 

boogers

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#catset #jetset
this discussion always devolves into semantics

i always wondered why we dont take the good parts of various systems of governance and come up with something new and fair instead of relying on what some egghead wrote 200 years ago. defenders of capitalism will point to corrupt dictatorships and go "see?" and someone else will just chime in "but that was a corruption of what marx said" or something like that. and nothing ever gets solved lol
 

Diyhai

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Its case by case. Some people have production roles at work while other people have support roles.


Every single production role can be monetized independently of the employer. Its the difference between HR/middle mgmt/surgical tech and the sales/factory worker/surgeon. The production workers ARE THE SYSTEM that creates support roles. They are the value in its entirety.



Its not necessarily the system, but fear of risk that keeps production workers from monetizing their value. Its why doctors/nurses/cooks/farm hands work w2 jobs when they can very easily sell their services independently, with a higher earnings cap if they believed in themselves.





Drivers are most definitely production workers so this is inaccurate.

For the example, couriers and transit drivers have existed for more than a century before uber. Hell, taxi companies could be started by a single person in most major cities with a car, a city permit, and bussiness phone number. So i disagree with your last point.


These guys really don't benefit from the system at all, Because their earning capacity and earnings cap was much higher as taxi drivers or couriers or transit drivers or limo drivers before uber. They just arent willing to take the risk to directly sell their product.
you are missing the point
that all the workers choose not to work independently because their lives are made easier by the people who supposedly exploit them
your quote "They just arent willing to take the risk to directly sell their product."
"the exploiters" assume that risk
the people are not the system at all, my reference "of the system" is the infrastructures software and organizations created by the so called exploiters
yes the system needs people to function but the people do not create the same value apart from the system they benefit from
 
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Vandelay

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I've said it often on here, I think capitalism is the right system if it's taxed and legislated correctly. Problem is, and it has become increasingly apparent to me, we won't ever tax and legislate it right.

What comes next though? I think class is an inherent trait of humanity, and unfortunately it's been used to hold people down arbitrarily and permanently. Social immobility even when using the rules set out by the system is my problem with capitalism. It eventually gets rigged so those at the top never move. That's the problem.

A social democratic order is easily obtainable with minimal change in the average person's day-to-day except an improved quality of life, and safety nets so you can only fall so far on the economic ladder. And through your own efforts to make society better, you should be able to enrich your own life... within reason.
 

UnQuantized

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What happens if AI takes over themajority of production? All these arguments for workers owning their labor fall apart, which is why they are heavily investing in AI to finally get rid of human capital.
 
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Formerly Black Trash

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I've said it often on here, I think capitalism is the right system if it's taxed and legislated correctly. Problem is, and it has become increasingly apparent to me, we won't ever tax and legislate it right.

What comes next though? I think class is an inherent trait of humanity, and unfortunately it's been used to hold people down arbitrarily and permanently. Social immobility even when using the rules set out by the system is my problem with capitalism. It eventually gets rigged so those at the top never move. That's the problem.

A social democratic order is easily obtainable with minimal change in the average person's day-to-day except an improved quality of life, and safety nets so you can only fall so far on the economic ladder. And through your own efforts to make society better, you should be able to enrich your own life... within reason.
I think this only gets solved with a strong push from the unions plus violence at this point

They're not just going to give us anything

There's historical precedence
 

Jimmy from Linkedin

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this discussion always devolves into semantics

i always wondered why we dont take the good parts of various systems of governance and come up with something new and fair instead of relying on what some egghead wrote 200 years ago. defenders of capitalism will point to corrupt dictatorships and go "see?" and someone else will just chime in "but that was a corruption of what marx said" or something like that. and nothing ever gets solved lol
Those who get involved in those discussions dont know what they are talking about. Another distinction to be raised is systems of economics ( distribution of resources) versus systems of governance (distribution of representation). Conflating these is a chef's kiss for not-constructive conversation.

Semantics are important in this discussions but as you note, people having disagreements on the definitions of terms even if they are clearly stated is most of what the non-republic Socrates dialouges were about. Tale as old as time.

That being said also understanding what Marx was talking about is difficult. A significant part of Capital Vol 1 is on the nature of value. A discussion that is being had here. And then there are two more volumes! But it is a slog to get through. I'll get to it, and get through it, but it is hard work to be more than just an armchair philosopher.

"Nobody wants to work anymore" :russ:
 

DEAD7

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So what are you promoting? It's not going to be any different. You will always have people taking advantage of others in the current society of the world. It's a problem that we can't get rid of because it's in their heart.
People who seek power and control of others will always be a problem in this world.
:ufdup:

You are debating real world capitalism on a large scale, full of flesh and blood irrational actors… against theoretical socialism/communism on no meaningful scale, full of abstract actors behaving how people theorize they will.

You can’t win.
I avoid these pie in the sky debates at all cost.
People will always be able to imagine a better system/scenario in their head.
 

DEAD7

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Imagine actually believing early American whites would have been nicer to blacks under a different ism:mjlol:

Misunderstand hate and anti blackness brehs
 
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