Capitalism really is just a ruse to make a handful of people wealthy. The average person is never going to make it.

Vandelay

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See what I was telling you about @Charles Foster Kane? :russ:
Cure, revenue and cashflow in the same sentence rarely goes over well. :scusthov: But when you dgaf I guess that ceases to matter. :wow:
An incident pool remains stable...sustainability of a franchise, coldest line I'll see this whole week. Like they talking about MacDonalds or something. :wow:
I think shareholder capitalism is fundamentally broken. While I question the viability of governmentally subsidized or even governmentally produced food production as we discussed in the overpopulation thread, I think there are some aspects of society that the government should take over; drug/medicine production is one.

If for no other reason, it makes society more productive as a whole to have a healthy populace. The losses incurred by not recouping the drug development costs or having to worry about quarterly stock price increases is negated because someone simply can go to work because they're not worried about their blood sugar spiking wildly out of control or bartering monthly bills to pay for prescriptions.

We don't leave road construction to private organizations. There would be dirt roads in unprofitable parts of the country. We don't leave fire protection to those who can afford an on call fire department. And we shouldn't leave medicine that determines whether someone lives or dies to private organizations. Some things nationally we should be willing to take a loss on. Economically, it's easy to argue but we've allowed some companies to become so big, dismantling that system will become tough.
 
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Claudex

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I think shareholder capitalism is fundamentally evil. While I question the viability of governmentally subsidized or even governmentally produced food production as we discussed in the overpopulation thread, I think there are some aspects of society that the government should take over; drug/medicine production is one.

If for no other reason, it makes society more productive as a whole to have a healthy populace. The losses incurred by not recouping the drug development costs or having to worry about quarterly stock price increases is negated because someone simply can go to work because they're not worried about their blood sugar spiking wildly out of control or bartering monthly bills to pay for prescriptions.

We don't leave road construction to private organizations. There would be dirt roads in unprofitable parts of the country. We don't leave fire protection to those who can afford an on call fire department. And we shouldn't leave medicine that determines whether someone lives or dies to private organizations. Some things nationally we should be willing to take a loss on. Economically, it's easy to argue but we've allowed some companies to become so big, dismantling that system will become tough.
100% in agreement. It's exactly what I meant when I said the role of government isn't as light as most governments tend to approach it. :wow:
 

inndaskKy

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I'm just pointing out that regardless of your economic system, you do have a central banking system and whoever is running that system has to decide whether the interest rate of money loaned out from the system will be positive, negative, or zero.
That's assuming that there should be banks who have the special privilege of using bank reserves. Not saying there shouldn't be, but it's not necessarily a given that there should be either.
 

Professor Emeritus

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That's assuming that there should be banks who have the special privilege of using bank reserves. Not saying there shouldn't be, but it's not necessarily a given that there should be either.


We're about to step into territory I know virtually nothing about, but I don't think it has to be banks. In our current system, there is specially limited access to federal reserves. But couldn't you create a system that was more open, but you would still need a central entity to release the funds into the system?

This is starting to get into the weeds, but the book I mentioned suggests a couple possible means of solving the current environmental regulation mess and the current loans-at-interest money creation mess by tying environmental preservation and currency creation together. In a system like that,


Once we have decided how much of each commons should be made available for use, we can issue money “backed” by it. For example, we might decide that the atmosphere can sustain total sulfur dioxide emissions of two million tons a year. We can then use the emissions rights as a currency backing. The same goes for the rest of the commons. The result would be a long list comprising all the elements of the commons we agree to use for economic purposes. Conceptually, it might look something like this:

Our money derives its value from the right to harvest 300,000 tons of cod from the Newfoundland cod fishery, the right to draw 30 million gallons of water monthly from the Ogallala Aquifer, the right to emit 10 billion tons of CO2, the right to pump 2 billion barrels of oil from the ground, the use of the X-microhertz band of the electromagnetic spectrum …

How to implement this in practice? One way would be for the government to simply create money and spend it into the economy in the way governments spend tax revenues today. The money would circulate through the economy and eventually back to the government when producers redeem it for the backing items. This could happen through auction, or relative prices for the backing items could be set in advance and then adjusted each year according to actual prices on the secondary market. Either way, the redemption of money for backing items would function just like a tax on resources and pollution.

Let’s look at a concrete example of how it might work. A local government issues salaries to police, firefighters, and the local ecological cleanup crew. One of them spends her salary on food, electricity, and a new transmission for her car. The food comes from a local farm, which spends part of the money for the right to pump 300,000 gallons of water a year from the local aquifer. This payment goes to the local government, which is the steward of that part of the commons.

Meanwhile, part of the money for the transmission goes to a factory somewhere, which pays part of that for pollution credits needed to operate. That cost is embodied in the price of the transmission, which also reflects the pollution credits for the gasoline used to transport it, the mineral rights for the iron ore used to make the steel, and so forth. These payments go to various stewards of the commons, some local, some regional, some national or global. Any factory that figures out a way to use less of the commons—for example, to make less pollution, or to use recycled metal from old junkyards—will be able to reduce its costs and earn a higher profit. The profit motive thereby becomes the ally, not the enemy, of our desire to heal the earth.

Remember the principle that whatever commodity we use as money becomes valuable, so that we seek more of it. When gold is money, we mine more gold, beyond any practical need for it. In societies where cattle are money, people keep herds beyond what they need. If we use oil or energy as a currency backing, as some propose, then we will try to produce and hoard more oil. But what if we use oil still in the ground, gold still under the mountain, and forests still in their pristine state as currency backing? Won’t we then elevate their value, too, and seek to create more and more of them? The mechanism is not at all mysterious. If you have to pay the full environmental costs of oil extraction, you will diligently find ways to keep it in the ground. If you have to pay for each unit of pollution, you will strive to pollute less.

An alternative means to the same end would be for the government to create credit-money by borrowing from the central bank at zero interest and repaying the loans with money from the sale of the items of the commons it holds in trust. The government could also issue bonds to investors and the central bank exercise monetary policy as it does today by purchasing or selling varying amounts of these bonds on the open market. It is crucial that these bonds bear zero (or negative) interest, a possibility I will explain in the next two chapters. Otherwise, a need for perpetual growth in the use of the commons would be created.

Either way, producers would have a financial incentive to minimize their use of the commons. No such incentive exists today, or if it does, it exists only haphazardly. This system would fully internalize social and ecological costs. Today, when a mining company drains an aquifer or a trawling fleet depletes a fishery, the costs to society and the planet are external to the producer’s own balance sheet. With this system, that is no longer true. Since these costs would be passed onto downstream industries and eventually to consumers, consumers would no longer face today’s dilemma that the cheapest products are those that cause the most social and environmental damage, while the fair-trade and eco-friendly products are way more expensive. Instead, products that avoided pollution in their manufacture would be cheaper because pollution quotas would cost a lot of money. Products would be more expensive in proportion to the amount of the natural commons consumed in their production.




That's an entirely different subject, of course, than the question of the rate at which such money depreciates in value. That part is covered in a different chapter.
 
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