Coronavirus Thread: Worldwide Pandemic

[Pressure]

I understand why politicians and officials love mask mandates. They’re an easy way to show you are “doing something” while cases rise and public is more concerned about transmission. That doesn’t mean they actually make a big difference.

Seems like you can’t discuss this without people making immediate associations to politics or culture wars. If there are mask rules, I’ll wear them, but at what point does this end? No one can provide any metric or target.

I thought the answer was always that masks and social distancing help MORE THAN nothing at all.

Seems people have allowed the discussion to be muddled by anti-mask and Anti-vaxx crowds that those preliminary measure were the solution moreso than merely be mitigation methods.

 

[Godless Socialist CEO]

Are people in here trying to make the case masks don’t help cut down on transmission because that’s been proven to be some insane anti vax talking point time and time again. Masks work just like vaccines work it’s just not a 100% strategy. I’m tired of this shyt, it’s 2021 folks, cut the bullshyt and get off social media


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story...ce-behind-how-face-coverings-work/8062401002/

 

[storyteller]

I understand why politicians and officials love mask mandates. They’re an easy way to show you are “doing something” while cases rise and public is more concerned about transmission. That doesn’t mean they actually make a big difference.

Seems like you can’t discuss this without people making immediate associations to politics or culture wars. If there are mask rules, I’ll wear them, but at what point does this end? No one can provide any metric or target.

I'm a bit busy, but I can run to pubmed and grab some research articles that show the efficacy of mask wearing at reducing ("reducing" being the key word here, rather than "eliminating") transmission. The issue on mask mandates is that they're only effective in so much as people actually follow-through and wear the masks properly as-advised. But the fact remains that masks do effectively reduce risk of transmission. There are obviously a gang of other variables that can impact transmission (how prevalent are vaccines? How densely populated is an area? Age and health indicators play a role in the rates of hospitalization and death. Etc.,etc.,etc.) but masks definitely check out as a way to slow transmission which would then allow for other measures to be more effective (ie: Contact tracing is easier when there's less transmission...a good example being New Zealand just this past week).

Anyway I'll have the pubmed links to the ABSTRACTS. I'm strapped for time and I've seen enough of these reviews that I'm trusting the methodology, but full text links are on the right and I'm aiming for free full text links that are available directly in pubmed since it'll be easier and keep you on one website.


High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US

High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US - PubMed

Results: Introduction of mask use with 50% efficacy worn by 50% of individuals reduces the cumulative infection attack rate (IAR) by 27%, the peak prevalence by 49%, and population-wide mortality by 29%. If 90% of individuals wear 50% efficacious masks, this decreases IAR by 54%, peak prevalence by 75%, and population-wide mortality by 55%; similar improvements hold if 70% of individuals wear 75% efficacious masks. Late adoption reduces IAR and deaths by 18% or more compared to no adoption. Lower adoption in rural areas than urban would lead to rural areas having the highest IAR.

Conclusions: Even after community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 has been established, adoption of mask-wearing by a majority of community-dwelling individuals can meaningfully reduce the number and outcome of COVID-19 infections over and above physical distancing interventions.

Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States

Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States - PubMed

Results: We find an increasing trend in mask usage across the U.S., although uptake varies by geography and demographic groups. A multivariate logistic model controlling for social distancing and other variables found a 10% increase in mask wearing was associated with a 3.53 (95% CI: 2.03, 6.43) odds of transmission control (R t <1). We also find that communities with high mask wearing and social distancing have the highest predicted probability of a controlled epidemic. These positive associations were maintained across sensitivity analyses. Following state mandates, mask wearing did not show significant statistical changes in uptake, however the positive trend of increased mask wearing over time was preserved.

Conclusion: Widespread utilization of face masks combined with social distancing increases the odds of SARS-CoV-2 transmission control. Mask wearing rose separately from government mask mandates, suggesting supplemental public health interventions are needed to maximize mask adoption and disrupt the spread of SARS-CoV-2, especially as social distancing measures are relaxed.

Here's one from a country you referenced in a prior post. They mention in here that complacency caused a drop-off in mask adherence and that it played a role in a larger second wave than the first when compliance was higher.

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods
(Had to go to the full text for the conclusive points on this one...

From the Conclusion:
Not all masks are created equal. While laboratory tests generally suggest that N95 masks are superior in performance to surgical masks, population studies in healthcare workers have not documented significant differences. This discrepancy may be due to the lack of proper fit when using N95s. Conversely, cloth masks generally perform poorly compared to N95 and surgical masks in laboratory tests. However, in part because of the global PPE shortage, cloth masks have become the most commonly used PPE by the general public. Despite their shortcomings, community-based research has demonstrated the efficacy of cloth masks in slowing down the spread of COVID-19. Due to a lack of standards and regulations, research is needed to identify the optimal combinations of fabric materials, number of layers, thread counts, and other properties, in order to properly engineer more effective cloth masks. Decontamination methods that allow for the reuse of N95 and surgical masks have been widely studied amid the pandemic. Nevertheless, it should be noted that all N95 and surgical masks are designed for single-use, and all decontamination methods compromise mask integrity and filtration efficiency to a certain degree.

Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries

Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries - PubMed

Principal findings: Voluntarily reduced mobility, occurring prior to government policies, decreases the percent change in deaths per day by 9.2 percentage points (pp) (95% confidence interval [CI] 4.5-14.0 pp). Government closure policies decrease the percent change in deaths per day by 14.0 pp (95% CI 10.8-17.2 pp). Disaggregating government policies, the most beneficial for reducing fatality, are intercity travel restrictions, canceling public events, requiring face masks in some situations, and closing nonessential workplaces. Other sub-components, such as closing schools and imposing stay-at-home rules, show smaller and statistically insignificant impacts.

Conclusions: NPIs have substantially reduced fatalities arising from COVID-19. Importantly, the effect of voluntary behavior change is of the same order of magnitude as government-mandated regulations. These findings, including the substantial variation across dimensions of closure, have implications for the optimal targeted mix of government policies as the pandemic waxes and wanes, especially given the economic and human welfare consequences of strict regulations.

 

[CrimsonTider]

Have you addressed why countries with extremely high mask compliance are still suffering from huge waves of infection?

It’s simply a fact that Japan, Thailand, Vietnam were all cited as model pandemic responses in 2020 and their populations adherence to masking was one of the best practices cited. All three are suffering from huge waves as they face a more transmissible variant with immunologically naive populations with relatively low vaccination rates.

There is no culture war about masks in Japan or in any of SE Asia, yet it hasn’t proven to be a game changer. If we agree science always evolves, and positions revisited based on new evidence, then this should be one of them.

To me, it’s clear vaccinations combined with a revised risk assessment recognizing COVID is endemic is only way out. Everyone is going to get, and probably multiple times in their lifetimes. It preferably should be via vaccination first.

Given this reality, it makes little sense to insist vaccinated continue to mask indefinitely. Until when? It will never go to 0.

you’re preaching to the choir bruh

my question was always, what’s the end game for mask?

you have a safe and effective vaccine and y’all are criticizing people for not wearing a mask to the grocery store?

I thought the answer was always that masks and social distancing help MORE THAN nothing at all.

Seems people have allowed the discussion to be muddled by anti-mask and Anti-vaxx crowds that those preliminary measure were the solution moreso than merely be mitigation methods.

the wisdom prior to vaccines was to social distance and in the times you can’t wear a mask

 

[TheDarceKnight]

I got fully vaccinated as soon as I could, but I have very little confidence in efficacy of masks to reduce transmission let alone end this pandemic.

I remember when people were claiming Asian countries like Japan and Vietnam showed how masking/compliance to public health directives are the way out.

Have any of those people revisited those claims? Mask compliance very high in both countries since 2020, and yet pandemic as bad as it’s been for either at this stage. Same for a lot of Southeast Asia.

At what point do people revisit idea masks make a major difference? Beyond that, what is the point if COVID is bound to be endemic? What is the target?

First of all, people wear masks so poorly even when they do wear them. At least in the 4-5 U.S. cities I've been in since this started. Adults regularly wear them with half their face sticking out over the top of them, and there's always some tough guys that are too cool to wear them at all.

Assuming everyone wore them right and it's bound to be an endemic anyways, I think the target to stop wearing them to at least reduce the spread is when healthcare workers aren't quitting en masse, depressed, and having compassion and empathy fatigue due to all of the hospitals and urgent cares being overrun. People are so fukking selfish to not care about these people.

Even if masks only helped reduce the spread by as little as 5% (which is extremely low-balling it, but just hear me out) wouldn't it be worth it to ease the burden on all of the doctors, nurses, and EMTs in our country that are basically fighting a war every single day?

It makes me so angry that Republicans pay so much lip service to supporting troops, cops, first responders, and frontline workers...and yet the doctors, nurses, and EMTs they all claim to love so much are being actively hurt by them because they're too soft to be bothered to wear a mask and get a shot.

And masks absolutely do help BTW. There's incredible evidence that they do, and @storyteller posted a lot of sources on that.

 

[CrimsonTider]

Are people in here trying to make the case masks don’t help cut down on transmission because that’s been proven to be some insane anti vax talking point time and time again. Masks work just like vaccines work it’s just not a 100% strategy. I’m tired of this shyt, it’s 2021 folks, cut the bullshyt and get off social media


https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story...ce-behind-how-face-coverings-work/8062401002/

No I’m plainly stating the criticizing vaccinated people for not wearing mask is silly

no one is denying that a mask will limit an expose person from spreading the virus to some extent

but the idea that America is in this situation due to the lack of wearing mask is not true

 

[CrimsonTider]

First of all, people wear masks so poorly even when they do wear them. At least in the 4-5 U.S. cities I've been in since this started. Adults regularly wear them with half their face sticking out over the top of them, and there's always some tough guys that are too cool to wear them at all.

Assuming everyone wore them right and it's bound to be an endemic anyways, I think the target to stop wearing them to at least reduce the spread is when healthcare workers aren't quitting en masse, depressed, and having compassion and empathy fatigue due to all of the hospitals and urgent cares being overrun. People are so fukking selfish to not care about these people.

Even if masks only helped reduce the spread by as little as 5% (which is extremely low-balling it, but just hear me out) wouldn't it be worth it to ease the burden on all of the doctors, nurses, and EMTs in our country that are basically fighting a war every single day?

It makes me so angry that Republicans pay so much lip service to supporting troops, cops, first responders, and frontline workers...and yet the doctors, nurses, and EMTs they all claim to love so much are being actively hurt by them because they're too soft to be bothered to wear a mask and get a shot.

And masks absolutely do help BTW. There's incredible evidence that they do, and @storyteller posted a lot of sources on that.

5% isn’t helping. What would help if more people were vaccinated

and those sources cited social distancing along with mask wearing

 

[Godless Socialist CEO]

No I’m plainly stating the criticizing vaccinated people for not wearing mask is silly

no one is denying that a mask will limit an expose person from spreading the virus to some extent

but the idea that America is in this situation due to the lack of wearing mask is not true

Vaccinated people can still get and spread the virus, it’s 100% ok to criticize vaccinated people for not wearing masks now that we know that while they don’t catch COVID at nearly the same rate as the unvaccinated, that they can still spread it when they do.

The unvaccinated are morons but we should do our part in protecting them from their stupidity and help keep the pressure off our healthcare system and healthcare employees imo

everyone no matter their vaccinated status needs to wear a mask indoors until we get to around 80-90% vaccination rate. For the good of the country

 

[CrimsonTider]

Vaccinated people can still get and spread the virus, it’s 100% ok to criticize vaccinated people for not wearing masks now that we know that while they don’t catch COVID at nearly the same rate as the unvaccinated, that they can still spread it when they do.

The unvaccinated are morons but we should do our part in protecting them from their stupidity and help keep the pressure off our healthcare system and healthcare employees imo

everyone no matter their vaccinated status needs to wear a mask indoors until we get to around 80-90% vaccination rate. For the good of the country

And this is the type of logic I push back on

what happens if or when we hit 80% vaccination and the unvaccinated are still filling up hospitals?

If you claim that vaccinated people should still be wearing mask then you also should be saying that vaccinated people should not be doing things like going to restaurants, concerts, gyms or other places consider high risk for spread

There has to be an end game to wearing mask because it is neither normal or practical to continue doing so with safe and effective vaccines readily available

 

[thatrapsfan]

I thought the answer was always that masks and social distancing help MORE THAN nothing at all.

Seems people have allowed the discussion to be muddled by anti-mask and Anti-vaxx crowds that those preliminary measure were the solution moreso than merely be mitigation methods.

For me the conversation has been muddled in two directions. By the anti crowd one side, but also by people strongly supportive of NPIs like masks and restrictions, and exaggerating their utility. I’m sure you’ve heard people say COVID situation wouldnt be so bad if only people wore their masks and followed rules.

Policy also doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It made sense to have some measures, rather than nothing at all, when we had no vaccines. But situation is different in places that have mass vaccination. It seems like people are still under the impression elimination is in sight, but there’s a scientific consensus now that it’ll never happen. Given that reality, is the idea we will continue to advocate measures like masking and social distance indefinitely? Even with mass vaccination? There is no point where COVID will stop circulating, so policy should evolve in recognition of that.

 

[thatrapsfan]

I'm a bit busy, but I can run to pubmed and grab some research articles that show the efficacy of mask wearing at reducing ("reducing" being the key word here, rather than "eliminating") transmission. The issue on mask mandates is that they're only effective in so much as people actually follow-through and wear the masks properly as-advised. But the fact remains that masks do effectively reduce risk of transmission. There are obviously a gang of other variables that can impact transmission (how prevalent are vaccines? How densely populated is an area? Age and health indicators play a role in the rates of hospitalization and death. Etc.,etc.,etc.) but masks definitely check out as a way to slow transmission which would then allow for other measures to be more effective (ie: Contact tracing is easier when there's less transmission...a good example being New Zealand just this past week).

Anyway I'll have the pubmed links to the ABSTRACTS. I'm strapped for time and I've seen enough of these reviews that I'm trusting the methodology, but full text links are on the right and I'm aiming for free full text links that are available directly in pubmed since it'll be easier and keep you on one website.


High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US

High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US - PubMed




Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States

Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States - PubMed




Here's one from a country you referenced in a prior post. They mention in here that complacency caused a drop-off in mask adherence and that it played a role in a larger second wave than the first when compliance was higher.

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods
(Had to go to the full text for the conclusive points on this one...




Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries

Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries - PubMed

None are RCTs

I'm a bit busy, but I can run to pubmed and grab some research articles that show the efficacy of mask wearing at reducing ("reducing" being the key word here, rather than "eliminating") transmission. The issue on mask mandates is that they're only effective in so much as people actually follow-through and wear the masks properly as-advised. But the fact remains that masks do effectively reduce risk of transmission. There are obviously a gang of other variables that can impact transmission (how prevalent are vaccines? How densely populated is an area? Age and health indicators play a role in the rates of hospitalization and death. Etc.,etc.,etc.) but masks definitely check out as a way to slow transmission which would then allow for other measures to be more effective (ie: Contact tracing is easier when there's less transmission...a good example being New Zealand just this past week).

Anyway I'll have the pubmed links to the ABSTRACTS. I'm strapped for time and I've seen enough of these reviews that I'm trusting the methodology, but full text links are on the right and I'm aiming for free full text links that are available directly in pubmed since it'll be easier and keep you on one website.


High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US

High-Quality Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections and Deaths in the US - PubMed




Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States

Mask Wearing and Control of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United States - PubMed




Here's one from a country you referenced in a prior post. They mention in here that complacency caused a drop-off in mask adherence and that it played a role in a larger second wave than the first when compliance was higher.

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods

Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods
(Had to go to the full text for the conclusive points on this one...




Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries

Comparing the impact on COVID-19 mortality of self-imposed behavior change and of government regulations across 13 countries - PubMed

One of tiny numbers of RCTs on masks found the effects were inconclusive at best ACP Journals

The study was heavily scrutinized because people didn’t like the findings but there’s yet to be RCTs with larger sample sizes contradicting the results.

Besides that, you have to contend with real life numbers which show mass transmission in countries where mask compliance is high and worn properly. Germany even distributed high quality masks to their population this past spring and numbers there are still rising as delta takes hold.

I again ask, what is the policy goal at play here and what are the targets? When will it be acceptable to drop mask mandates, if not when majority of population is vaccinated?

 

[thatrapsfan]

Vaccinated people can still get and spread the virus, it’s 100% ok to criticize vaccinated people for not wearing masks now that we know that while they don’t catch COVID at nearly the same rate as the unvaccinated, that they can still spread it when they do.

The unvaccinated are morons but we should do our part in protecting them from their stupidity and help keep the pressure off our healthcare system and healthcare employees imo

everyone no matter their vaccinated status needs to wear a mask indoors until we get to around 80-90% vaccination rate. For the good of the country

What do you think will happen at an 80-90% vaccination rate? Elimination? The scientific consensus is coalescing around view that COVID will not be eliminated regardless of vaccination coverage. It is preferably for people to get immunity via vaccination rather than infection, and that’s why vaccine campaign should continue to be pushed. But it’s misleading to suggest that any figure will lead to zero covid. I’m in Canada where we are near 80% vaccination in many parts of country and cases are still rising with Delta.

 

[Joe Sixpack]

What do you think will happen at an 80-90% vaccination rate? Elimination? The scientific consensus is coalescing around view that COVID will not be eliminated regardless of vaccination coverage. It is preferably for people to get immunity via vaccination rather than infection, and that’s why vaccine campaign should continue to be pushed. But it’s misleading to suggest that any figure will lead to zero covid. I’m in Canada where we are near 80% vaccination in many parts of country and cases are still rising with Delta.

Jesus Christ this is a nightmare

 

[Godless Socialist CEO]

And this is the type of logic I push back on

what happens if or when we hit 80% vaccination and the unvaccinated are still filling up hospitals?

If you claim that vaccinated people should still be wearing mask then you also should be saying that vaccinated people should not be doing things like going to restaurants, concerts, gyms or other places consider high risk for spread

There has to be an end game to wearing mask because it is neither normal or practical to continue doing so with safe and effective vaccines readily available

What happens when we hit 80% hell if I know because we have no examples that show that outcome in the US but based on higher vaccinated areas we’ve seen that number DRASTICALLY reduces hospitalizations. It would need to be based on states as well

 

[Hood Critic]