Democrats point to Nordic nations as models of socialism & Healthcare; Here’s how they actually work

[DEAD7]

If you go to any libertarian space online or in person, the stance on private sector unions is mixed at best. The idea that libertarians universally support the strengthening of private sector unions is another strawman lie for you to feel better about your dumb ideology.



Elizabeth Warren is literally calls all of her reforms a better form of capitalism, a plan to save capitalism says she loves capitalism and your side of the aisle calls her socialist.


You can't do the Scandinavian model without high taxes and strong unions, which is why progressive activists know you can't get shyt done until you repeal Taft-Hartley. pushing for full scandinavian without a repeal of Taft- Hartley is folly.

Strengthening private sector unions, is a cost any libertarian that isn’t a purest(of which there are few) would pay to remove/drastically reduce federal intervention into the worker-employee contract.
A union set, industry specific wage > a blanket federally mandated wage.
... and I wish progressives pushed towards making it a reality.



Warren wants to put workers on corporate boards, which is as close to workers owning the means of production as it gets in this country.
Her socialist title is earned in my opinion.
If she believes she loves capitalism she has no grasp of how it works.
Imagine a corporation trying to figure how to deal with/negotiate with a union with a union member in the room

 

[DEAD7]

“it’s more capitalist!”
.

:mjyeahgif:

 

[F K]

Strengthening private sector unions, is a cost any libertarian that isn’t a purest(of which there are few) would pay to remove/drastically reduce federal intervention into the worker-employee contract.
A union set, industry specific wage > a blanket federally mandated wage.
... and I wish progressives pushed towards making it a reality.



Warren wants to put workers on corporate boards, which is as close to workers owning the means of production as it gets in this country.
Her socialist title is earned in my opinion.
If she believes she loves capitalism she has no grasp of how it works.
Imagine a corporation trying to figure how to deal with/negotiate with a union with a union member in the room

Models For Worker Codetermination In Europe

Board-level representation is an aspect of all of these systems. Germany has “parity codetermination” with a much higher proportion of worker representatives on a supervisory board that is not responsible for the day-to-day management of the company. Sweden has a smaller number of worker representatives on a board structure more similar to the United States, and France has an even smaller number of representatives on a board structure chosen by each company.

Board-level Representation / Sweden / Countries / National Industrial Relations / Home - WORKER PARTICIPATION.eu

Employees are represented on the boards of almost all companies with more than 25 employees (Sweden has a single-tier board system.) There are two or three employee members and they account for around one third of board members in most companies. They are chosen by the union and are generally the key figures in a whole range of employer-union relations.

Worker representation on corporate boards of directors - Wikipedia

Sweden Over 25 employees, around one third representation on boards.

This is hilarious, because our conversation is literally falling into the same pattern as the one in the meme. You say sweden is more capitalist, so progressives should push for it and then say all the shyt they do is socialism and bad.

edit: This is more proof( not that I needed any) that you are operating in bad faith, you want all of the stuff in the scandinavian model that benefits corporations (loose labor regulations, no minimum wage) without the stuff that helps the average citizen/worker (strong unions, co-determination,high taxes)

 

[DEAD7]

This is hilarious, because our conversation is literally falling into the same pattern as the one in the meme. You say sweden is more capitalist, so progressives should push for it and then say all the shyt they do is socialism and bad.

False.
I’m saying adopt it all, not just pieces of it.
I also said her proposal is “as close to worker owned means” in this country which I maintain is true...


Empower workers/unions, and remove/reduce the federal government... the latter is the part American progressives seem to take issue with.

 

[F K]

False.
I’m saying adopt it all, not just pieces of it.

Empower workers/unions, and remove/reduce the federal government... the latter is the part American progressives seem to take issue with.

you are in this thread taking issue with co-determination, which is part of the scandinavian model. Also the idea that the scandinavians have reduced the federal government is laughable. They have a national, centralized school system, strong federal regulations in health care among other things. How is the swedish model an example of removed /reduced federal government?

 

[DEAD7]

you are in this thread taking issue with co-determination, which is part of the scandinavian model

I’d prefer we adopt the working model in its entirety rather than taking only what we like and assuming it will function/work the same.



When progressives say “it’s working in Sweden” well it’s working along side a lot of other policies absent in America

 

[F K]

I’d prefer we adopt the working model in its entirety rather than taking only what we like and assuming it will function/work the same.



When progressives say “it’s working in Sweden” well it’s working along side a lot of other policies absent in America

yeah and who are the people preventing the other policies? progressives? you really think progressives wouldn't trade a minimum wage for sweden levels of union enrollment?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

This sounds amazing! Why aren't progressives truly pushing for the Nordic model???

Scandinavian capitalism is much more appealing than the "socialist" aspects Bernie is focused on.

You can remove strong unions and replace it with any of the progressive policies being pushed...the current climate is a weak excuse
What is it about fully applying the Nordic model that progressives are against/hesitant about? More economic freedom and abolishing the fed min wage isn’t opposed by libertarians... nor is the strengthening of private sector unions.
Stop cherry picking the shyt and push for the actual model. It’s more capitalist than what we currently have in the states... and should be sold as such.


Govt. mandated purchases are going to be despised and resisted though.
#thisisamerica

You're either being ignorant or deceptive about the inherent differences between a shareholder economy and a stakeholder economy.

The Nordic nations (along with Germany and several other economies) work as they do because their entire economic culture spreads priorities among all stakeholders. Worker concerns, consumer concerns, and community concerns all have a place in the discernment process.

Whereas the USA has almost a pure shareholder model, where profit alone trumps everything unless forced otherwise. Workers, consumers, environment, the surrounding community, they're all treated like dirt by the corporation unless forced otherwise by law.

You can't just abolish the minimum wage and think American corporations won't screw workers. You can't just deregulate products and think American companies won't screw customers. We've BEEN there before.

The actual manner in which Scandinavian nations run is something that has been fought tooth and nail by large American corporations, with Republicans and establishment Dems carrying their water. Progressives are realistic about that. So they are looking to incorporate the principles that can be applied without their support.

You're pretending they can assume corporate suppprt and just act accordingly. That's not reality.

 

[F K]

I’d prefer we adopt the working model in its entirety rather than taking only what we like and assuming it will function/work the same.



When progressives say “it’s working in Sweden” well it’s working along side a lot of other policies absent in America

bernie voters would happily go full hog for the swedish model, including limiting the powers of states to set educational and economic policy. Can you say the same for your libertarian brethren, and for economic right wingers

 

[DEAD7]

bernie voters would happily go full hog for the swedish model, including limiting the powers of states to set educational and economic policy. Can you say the same for your libertarian brethren, and for economic right wingers

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

I lied about "owning" a bar, the bar went out of business, listen to me, I am smart capitalism guy.

 

[rapbeats]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Switzerland all have no minimum wage... my point is when progressives say "adopt their model" do they mean 'adopt their model'? or are they cherry picking the aspects of the Nordic economies they like?

Regressive relatively flat tax rates
Higher economic freedom

Little product market regulation

stop it.

Do you know why they dont have a minimum wage? Mr Disingenuous
5 Developed Countries without Minimum Wages

However, the truth is most developed countries that have no legal minimum wage still have minimum wages set by industry through collective bargainingcontracts. The majority of their working populations are unionized. These unions negotiate a fair baseline pay rate on behalf of the participating workers so the government does not have to do it. Since each industry may require vastly different things of its employees, it makes sense the minimum wage varies from business to business. Five developed nations that have no legal minimum wage are Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland.


^^^and thats how it should be done if you really want to do it right. but we're not built on that kind of model. we are built on a model where a very small few take most of the spoils and then lock everyone else out of even having the opportunity to do the same in the future by way of lobbying to change the rules to suit them and only them. thats not a "FREE" market. Lobbying and paying for Politicians to change the rules so the market is no longer "FREE/OPEN for the best and the brightest."

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

I'd accept a grand bargain of universal healthcare for basically cutting off illegal immigration in an unprecedented fashion

 

[F K]

I'd accept a grand bargain of universal healthcare for basically cutting off illegal immigration in an unprecedented fashion

as long as we make legal immigration easier

 

[rapbeats]

I'd accept a grand bargain of universal healthcare for basically cutting off illegal immigration in an unprecedented fashion

first off. illegal immigration isnt so much of a weight on our system to the point where it would completely move the needle of how much tax dollars you would have to spend for universal healthcare.

lets say for fun we have to pay an extra $100 per month for universal healthcare for all. we all have to pay it. all being all citizens. obviously some rich folks pay a lot more than that. Lets say with illegals it went from $95 to an additional $5.00 increase to make it a full $100. thats literally the difference the illegal argument makes. Dont hold your own prosperity back just because you're on some white racist thinking "dem people over there better not get any". if they are getting such a small amt take the benefits and run with them. we can sort out the illegal thing as well.