WHY IN THE HELL SHOULDN'T A PLAYERS ALL STAR SELECTIONS
NOT COUNT TOWARDS THEIR HOF SELECTION?
YOU SOUND CRAZY RIGHT NOW.
Did y'all see Sherman throwing Russell Wilson under the bus to boost himself up?
- Thread starter GilSho
- Start date
WHY IN THE HELL SHOULDN'T A PLAYERS ALL STAR SELECTIONS
NOT COUNT TOWARDS THEIR HOF SELECTION?
YOU SOUND CRAZY RIGHT NOW.
A PLAYERS ALL STAR SELECTIONS
NOT COUNT TOWARDS THEIR HOF SELECTION?
YOU SOUND CRAZY RIGHT NOW.
I didn't say they don't count.
I said they have less weight than Super Bowl rings.
Russ doesn't have a lot in terms of the individual accolades that carry the most weight:.
MVPs
SBMVPs
Holding major records
AP (he has just a third team, no firsts)
You can safely put Pro Bowls and especially NFL 100 rank significantly below those.
Like, I'd never ever need to mention Peyton Mannings pro bowl count to justify his HoF inclusion. No one is going to say, wow look how many pro bowls Lamar and Mahomes made.
That's edge case talk.
Even in the case of someone like Eli who should have a been a borderline HOF could point to his two SB and Super Bowl MVP’s including one over the undefeated Patriots to help get him over the hump.
ELI SHOULDN'T BE BORDERLINE ANYTHING.
HE WAS NEVER A TOP 5 QB.
YOU BOYS LOOKING FUNNYAF IN HERE
THERES NO SUCH THINGAS 3RD TEAM ALL PRO
ONCE AGAIN
LEAD THE NFL IN TDS
AND FINISHED TOP 3 IN 4
STRAIGHT SEASONS
HE WAS ELITE IN HIS ERA AMONGST
OTHER ELITE QBS
Looking funny about what? I've been consistent in my opinion about Russ and his HOF.
ELI SHOULDN'T BE BORDERLINE ANYTHING.
HE WAS NEVER A TOP 5 QB.
AF IN HERE
Hell, I was the first one on this site sounding the alarm and calling him washed years ago during that first year in Denver when people were juelzing and making excuses for him.
AS 3RD TEAM ALL PRO
ONCE AGAIN
LEAD THE NFL IN TDS
AND FINISHED TOP 3 IN 4
STRAIGHT SEASONS
HE WAS ELITE IN HIS ERA AMONGST
OTHER ELITE QBS
Stafford has two 40 pass td seasons and has multiple years where he's top 4.
This is the kind of argument you make for s borderline case. A bunch of arbitrary arguments like "he was top 4 in tds one year"
You don't gotta do this with people who have clear cut cases
murksiderock
Superstar
You're going in circles with me for no reason, I never said that his Seattle run made him a lock for Canton; which means I understand why some people would think the Seattle run isn't enough.
I said that I think the Seattle run was enough and that people shouldn't use his post-prime, which is analagous to post-Seattle, to judge his Hall case. I said they shouldn't, not that they don't, because very clearly they do.
Your position on this is very clear and that's fine.
That stopped by the end of Y1 Denver. And it only was a thing maybe his last three Seattle years; definitely wasn't given any grace in Y2 Denver. So about a 3½ year window or so that people put down others for him.
I think it became obvious in retrospect that it was Russ and his team that were originating the "Let Russ cook" narrative, and it was coupled with the LOB's public turning of their backs on him. He viewed it as if he needed to defend himself, when he really didn't.
Okay I'm talking about the people who actually talk football. Not the women or people who don't.
Nobody who talks football and defends him uses his relationship with Ciara as a stepping stone. I've made my argument for Russ without mentioning his relationship as a factor.
6x his peers voted him as one of the five greatest quarterbacks alive, between 2014 and 2021. That is 6x in an 8-season era.
In 2020 they voted him as the 2nd best quarterback alive.
To your point, NFL100 is one of those "newer" (though its been around 14 years/15 seasons now) and thus, less significant accolades. It's not a top metric for where people have their Canton bid determined, so I agree with you there...
It's not nothing, though. In real time his peers told you that they viewed him as a Top 5 quarterback...that's not nothing. It definitely needs to be mentioned in threads like this where one player (Gonzalez) is talking about him but basically retired before Russ ascended as a player; and where another player who was a teammate has clear personal disdain for him.
(And I'm not saying he's wrong to dislike Russ, I wasn't in that locker room)...but when two ex-players are giving their take on him, NFL100 is fair game here, its fair to bring up that Russ' peers collectively said he was a Top 5 QB.
For my part, anyone could check and see I'm very rarely in the NFL100 threads and I have never once made an argument for Russ based on his NFL100 rankings. I think it was clear in real time that he was a Top 5 QB at his peak, I didn't need NFL100 to tell me that, I remember it today, and knew it in real time.
Ben's not gonna be a shoe-in because as you already mentioned, a precedent has already been set with 2x Super Bowl champs not being in (Plunkett for sure, maybe someone else). The HOF Committee has already given us the precedent that 2 rings doesn't lock you in, if you don't think they are good enough.
That means technically Eli isn't a lock either, we just all think he's getting in because of the rings and who he beat and his last name, because you can't make a HOF case for him at all outside of that.
For Ben, his last name isn't Manning; he had off-field issues early on; and you can argue he wasn't the driving factor in either championship, like Plunkett wasn't. He wasn't an elite player until he stopped winning championships, so they gonna have to weigh that in too.
He's as borderline as Russ or Eli or Stafford should be, in no way is Ben Roethlisberger a shoe-in
I'd just as soon be happy with if The Hall, moving forward, just allowed in people who were surefire guys. I'd be fine with that...while I'd vote in Russ and Ben, and not Eli or Stafford, if I had a vote, I'd be perfectly fine if none of those guys got in because none of them have airtight cases.
Russ has the best on-field case, he was better than all those guys at peak. Eli has the best case based upon how I think The Hall is gonna actually vote.
STAFFORD THREW
THE BALL MORE THAN ANYBODY
ON LOSING STAT PADDING TEAMS
YET HE NEVER LEAD THE LEAGUE
IN TDS AND DIDNT MAKE
THE PRO BOWLS IN ANY OF THOSE
THREE TOP 4 TD SEASONS
STAFFORD THREW
THE BALL MORE THAN ANYBODY
ON LOSING STAT PADDING TEAMS
YET HE NEVER LEAD THE LEAGUE
IN TDS AND DIDNT MAKE
THE PRO BOWLS IN ANY OF THOSE
THREE TOP 4 SEASONS
Im sorry, i stopped reading once you started trying to discredit his touchdowns. shyt is weak. You're the one who brought up TD count and top 4 seasons.
Now you want to decide which ones do and don't count.
HOF shoe ins don't gotta do this. Go back to arguing about Pro Bowls
murksiderock
Superstar
The Super Bowls will likely get Eli in but it will be a further b*stardization of the Pro Football Hall, further lowering of standards to bring them closer to Basketball Hall.
Eli was drafted in the famed '04 Draft with Ben and Rivers and the majority of football heads agree that Eli is the worst quarterback of the three. They are all borderline, not a single one of them are a lock (which is now proven Eli wasn't a lock since he didn't get in on his first year of eligibility).
The fact that none of them are locks, and Eli by consensus is the worst of the three, is gonna make him getting in even worse.
As I mentioned in my previous quotes of you, I'd be fine if we simply stopped mentioning borderline guys at all.
Lamar, Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, these are for sure, first ballot guys. Manning was a lock from like Y5 on.
But we do mention borderline guys since Warner got in 8 years ago, and since we know borderline guys will continue to get mentioned, and another borderline guy will get in at some point or other, anybody (me, you, Voice, Chicago, anybody) can use arbitrary, sliding criteria to make someone's case for guys we understand aren't locks.
My issue is that NFL Media and fans have revised Stafford's career, but in the reverse of how they are revising Russ: Stafford was never ever viewed as a Top 5 QB, not by us or his peers, until this late-career LA run.
Even in this late-career run, we know he ain't better than The Big 3 (Mahomes, Lamar, Allen); he was never a day in his life better than Brady; and people have and can make the argument that he isn't better than a healthy Burrow or Herbert or Hurts.
I'm not a statistician and for my part, I only use stats to support an argument, not make one. I don't need to make a statistical argument for anybody, my standard is simply, were a Top 5 player at your position, and for how long.
A stat that would glare for Stafford for me, is how he never has led the NFL in a single metric of note, for a guy who is supposedly Canton-worthy.
But I think I'd agree with you that if someone wants to make a statistical case, keep that consistent. I don't believe you philosophically hang your hat on the stats, either.
NEVER LEAD THE LEAGUE IN TDS....
RUSS HAD 4 STRAIGHT YEARS
OF TOP 3 FINISHES WHICH SHOWS
HE WAS ELITE IN HIS ERA
AMONGST THE ELITE.
STAFFORDS THREE TOP 4 FINISHES
WERE SEPARATED BY 6 AND 4 SEASONS.
YOU DONT SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
You're not wrong at all and totally correct, but people including posters in this very thread have placed the importance of MVP and rings when it comes to HOF and GOAT discussion, so it's disingenuous to not count it in the case of Eli who did that exact thing when it mattered most.
QBs in the league these days can point to their numbers as to why they should be in the HOF, but what do you have over your peers that helps get you over the hump?
murksiderock
Superstar
And let me say that I do think championships matter for quarterbacks and coaches. The championships, who he won them against, and those two playoff runs as a whole, are Eli's football case. Because without em he has none, ugly mf was as AVERAGE as the day is long
You know of present era QBs, some weak mf like Daniel Jones or Trevor Lawrence or Brock Purdy is gonna go on an Eli or Flacco SB run at some point
and in a decade somebody will point to those rings to tell us why this average mf is Hall worthy