Do Baltimore Schools Need More Money?***

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
You can't separate the issues.

im not separating them, but advocating for social programs is not school reform, it doesnt matter how great the idea is

so lets be real about whats happening here, you have no real ideas for school reform, you just have ideas for social programs that you think will then as a side effect, improve the schools
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
1,337
Reputation
220
Daps
2,035
Class Action: An Activist Teacher’s Handbook
https://www.jacobinmag.com/supplements/ctu_booklet_final_web.pdf
Jacobin, Karen Lewis, Mariame Kaba (@prisonculture), Dean Baker amongst others got together and published this as a push against the problems in Chicago regarding education and what informs those problems. Tackles public schools, problems with current unionism but hits hardest against Rahm, the economic situation & her puppeteers and the privatization push.

You still haven't really responded to my CEPR figure about increased educational attainment not leading to good jobs for us, but here's Dean Baker (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/04/unremedial-education/) against your "education as cure all" argument.

It’s common in policy circles to claim that improving the quality of education in inner cities and impoverished rural areas is the answer to halting the growing gap between rich and poor. This view reflects not only illusions about the potential for substantially improving education for children from low- and moderate-income families without deeper economic and political shifts, but also a serious misunderstanding about the growth of inequality over the last three decades.
There should be no surprise, then, that the education reform movement has failed in its effort to boost educational outcomes for children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

At this point, education “reform” is hardly new; it is the establishment consensus, having led the national agenda on education for the last quarter century. The extent to which it has produced gains can be debated, but it has, without a doubt, not turned around struggling schools. The children in these schools still perform consistently worse on standardized tests and have much poorer career prospects than children attending wealthy suburban public schools or private ones.

But even if reform had improved education, it is unlikely to have done much about inequality. People with more education have, on average, done better than those with less education, but the growth in inequality over the last three decades has not been mainly a story of the more educated pulling away from the less educated. Rather, it has been a story in which a relatively small group of people (roughly the top one percent) have been able to garner the bulk of economic gains for reasons that have little direct connection to education.

The classic story of the education and inequality story is usually captured by the college/non-college premium: the ratio of the pay of those with college degrees to those without college degrees. This premium showed a substantial rise in the 1980s for both men and women. According to data from the Economic Policy Institute, the college premium for men rose from 20.2% at the 1979 business cycle peak to 34% at the business cycle peak in 1989. For women, the premium rose from 25% in 1979 to 40% in 1989.

Interestingly, the sharpest rise, especially for men, was during the high unemployment years at the start of the decade. The rise in the college/non-college pay gap is often attributed to technology and the growing use of computers in the workplace, in particular. But the largest rise in the college premium occurred at a point in time when computers were just being introduced to the workplace.

If the timing of the rise in the pay gap in the 1980s doesn’t fit the technology story very well, the wage trend in the last two decades is even harder to square with this picture. There was a much smaller increase in the college premium in the 1990s than in the 1980s — even though this was the period of the tech boom, when information technology led to a marked acceleration in the rate of productivity growth. After having risen by almost fourteen percent in the 1980s business cycle, the college premium for men rose by just 8% from 1989 to the business cycle peak in 2000. For women, the premium increased by 7.9% points in the 1990s cycle after increasing 15% in the 1980s.

The 2000s don’t fit any better with the technology and inequality story, as even college grads could no longer count on sharing in the gains from growth. For men, the premium rose by 2.8% between 2000 and 2011. This corresponded to a 2.4% gain in wages for male college grads between 2000 and 2012. The college premium for women increased by just 0.8% points over this period, with the wages of female college grads rising by 0.7% between 2000 and 2012. This situation holds true even if we look at just the segments of the labor market where we might expect especially strong demand. The average hourly wage for college graduates working in computer and mathematical occupations increased by just 5.3% from 2000 to 2011 — less than one-third of the rate of productivity growth over this period.

The patterns in the data show that inequality is not a question of the more-educated gaining at the expense of the less-educated due to inevitable technological trends. Rather, it has been a story in which a small group of especially well-situated workers — for example, those in finance, doctors, and top-level corporate executives — have been able to gain at the expense of almost everyone else. This pattern of inequality will be little affected by improving the educational outcomes for the bottom quarter or even bottom half of income distribution.

Of course, this does not argue against efforts to improve education. It is almost always the case that workers with more education do better than workers with less education, both in terms of hourly wages and employment outcomes. Unemployment and non-employment rates are considerably higher for those with less education.

Education does provide a clear avenue for mobility. Certainly it is a positive development if children from low-income families have the opportunity to move into the middle class, even if this might imply that someone from a middle-class background will move in the opposite direction.

And education is tremendously valuable for reasons unrelated to work and income. Literacy, basic numeracy skills, and critical thinking are an essential part of a fulfilling life. Insofar as we have children going through school without developing these skills, it is an enormous failing of society. Any just society would place a top priority on ensuring that all children learn such basic skills before leaving school.

However, it clearly is not the case that plausible increases in education quality and attainment will have a substantial impact on inequality. This will require much deeper structural changes in the economy. As a practical matter, given the dismal track record of the education reformers, substantial improvement in outcomes for children from low- and moderate-income families is likely to require deep structural change in society as well.

You can't separate the issues.

Nope, and the fact he wants to keep dancing around the core problem of poverty screaming "but focus on teh schoolz guyz!" says it all.
 

OsO

Souldier
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
5,282
Reputation
1,297
Daps
13,175
Reppin
Harlem
This is such a complex issue. There are social factors, political factors, economic factors, bureaucratic factors, etc...

I don't personally know anything about the school system in Baltimore but if it's anything like NY or any other major US city, then it's probably horrible.

And giving money to horrible schools is never, ever the answer.
 

Dreamer

Rookie
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
341
Reputation
-351
Daps
226
They just need to get back to if you're a crap teacher with no results gtfo, instead of them covering each others ass like the police do.

Alo of teachers are great but some after awhile just lose that passion and give up, but when these budget cuts come its not the crap teachers out, its the new ones who actually care, tenure is the downfall.

Also imo schools should be year round and for longer hours, but the unions won't allow this and American kids ar gonna be at a disadvantage until they fix this.
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
Class Action: An Activist Teacher’s Handbook
https://www.jacobinmag.com/supplements/ctu_booklet_final_web.pdf
Jacobin, Karen Lewis, Mariame Kaba (@prisonculture), Dean Baker amongst others got together and published this as a push against the problems in Chicago regarding education and what informs those problems. Tackles public schools, problems with current unionism but hits hardest against Rahm, the economic situation & her puppeteers and the privatization push.

You still haven't really responded to my CEPR figure about increased educational attainment not leading to good jobs for us, but here's Dean Baker (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/04/unremedial-education/) against your "education as cure all" argument.





Nope, and the fact he wants to keep dancing around the core problem of poverty screaming "but focus on teh schoolz guyz!" says it all.

Well first of all I'm not separating the two, I'm saying a good education system is the core of any anti poverty measure

But let's be real you don't really have any ideas on how to alleviate poverty do you?
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
1,337
Reputation
220
Daps
2,035
Well first of all I'm not separating the two, I'm saying a good education system is the core of any anti poverty measure

But let's be real you don't really have any ideas on how to alleviate poverty do you?

You're downplaying the hell out of one in favor of another. You're also attacking efforts against privatization without even fully articulating what the opposition wants.
There's the Jacobin handbook I just posted as far as education reform. There's the redlining thread you pretend to forget all about where I've listed some steps. There's even the Crittenden book I brought up and the post before that. I swear you post without actually reading anything.
 
Last edited:

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
You're downplaying the hell out of one in favor of another. You're also attacking efforts against privatization without even fully articulating what the opposition wants.
There's the Jacobin handbook I just posted as far as education reform. There's the redlining thread you pretend to forget all about where I've listed some steps. There's even the Crittenden book I brought up and the post before that. I swear you post without actually reading anything.


im not downplaying anything, the topic of this thread is Baltimore schools, that is the topic that i was discussing, if yall are trying swerve into a discussion about poverty thats fine, but im just staying on topic

school reform is the foundation of anti poverty IMO, im not trying to separate them you are, you are saying that by alleviating poverty that will make the school better, so you are downplaying the need to for school reform, you are seperating the issues

why would i have to articulate the opposition, if you agree with those opposed to privatization then you need to articulate it, not me, you need to defend a decrepit system that has killed young black minds for the past 100 years

you have not listed any steps in the redlining thread, i asked you directly what steps you think black people should take and you said nothing

so ill ask you again, what steps do you think black people should take to stop redlining or other racist policies?

dropping links to books isnt gonna cut it in HL, you need to articulate why anybody should even read those books
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
Jacobin is a leading voice of the American left, offering socialist perspectives on politics, economics, and culture.

:snoop:

this is why you cant answer straightforward questions about what black people need to do, you are caught up in white leftist ideology which has no room for black self determination or black domination
 

Hawaiian Punch

umop-apisdn
Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
19,081
Reputation
6,989
Daps
83,864
Reppin
The I in Team
thats an argument for more social programs, thats not an argument to keep the current public education system or to put more money into public schools

if there is a kid that lives in a 1 bedroom, with the tv blaring and their mom smoking newports, etc that is an argument for eliminating the traditional public school system and creating one that takes into account that situation

my whole entire anti public school argument is premised on that public school bureaucracies haven't and cannot adapt to the situation that kids are coming from, we need a completely new system and completely new ideas

Public school bureaucracies have trouble adapting to the varying socioeconomic conditions kids come from. I agree with you on this. But the fact is parents should share just as much in a child's success as a teacher. Hell you already have a precedent set in some areas where parents faced jail time for their kids truancy

http://www.wthr.com/story/21292197/parents-face-jail-time-over-truant-children

Schools already have introductory programs for parents on common core, an investment made by the system to educate parents. Would it be crazy to incentivize some parents to stay on their kids studies? Or maybe offer additional tutoring? Or safe study zones for kids that live in dangerous areas? My stance remains that a child's success is just as important what occurs outside a school environment as in one.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
1,337
Reputation
220
Daps
2,035
im not downplaying anything, the topic of this thread is Baltimore schools, that is the topic that i was discussing, if yall are trying swerve into a discussion about poverty thats fine, but im just staying on topic

school reform is the foundation of anti poverty IMO, im not trying to separate them you are, you are saying that by alleviating poverty that will make the school better, so you are downplaying the need to for school reform, you are seperating the issues

The two are inseparable! There isn't any veering off-topic. You calling them separate as if the education problem isn't massively linked to poverty is a big part of what I mean. It's like separating crime and poverty.
And the Dean Baker and CEPR piece I posted shows over generations education alone is not the cure all you keep making it out to be.

you have not listed any steps in the redlining thread, i asked you directly what steps you think black people should take and you said nothing

Wrong.
I'd argue for greater community control of education, and ultimately free education. Organized resistance to and direct action against zero tolerance policies, high stakes testing and other standardization that turns students into numbers and robots (this includes the profit motive - the nature of capital is to maximize profit by cutting labor and handing raw materials to the bare minimum). Those methods come in a wide variety. A communal/labor-focused approach to capitalism (you got schooled on this previously :mjlol:) and a strengthening of social welfare in the short can be used, but these methods come with inherent limitations that history has seen play out negatively already and ultimately must be utilized in a manner that brings about capital and the state's own demise. Reduced labor hours and basic income are examples of non-reformist reforms that get to the heart of the matter, along with a more communal approach to survival (housing, food, healthcare in the community, etc.) There's no singular method to achieve these ends, and I don't know everything.
We have to continue to move outside of the structures, in some cases, we built. For example, unions are very cozy with capital and I think labor relations is set up in a way now that management will always have the upper hand.


You literally proved you didn't know what socialism even was in that other thread breh and that you were just shytting just to shyt on it @JahFocus CS
I'm not hearing anything you have to say about anything left of Bernie Sanders bum ass :mjlol:
the first process doesn't open the door for the second?



Challenging and ultimately fighting for the destruction of an institution esp. through community movements that would in part entail cooperative economics and education is begging whites for help?


An ultimately democratic socialist solution isn't incompatible with right now local cooperative economics and an emphasis on financial literacy/education.
The emphasis the writer does place is on the fact this wouldn't be an issue at all if a basic human necessity wasn't treated like a commodity.

the "revolution" is led by white people thread

Not necessarily. I'd look further into the author's own work, because again, she didn't actually delve much into the tactics of reaching deprivatization and decommodification. For example, as is the case with historical redlining, if the state/white supremacy is apart of the problem, is challenging the state/white supremacy not at all apart of the solution?



This is hilarious but not actually grounded in anything analytical. I'm pretty sure you haven't really studied many Marxist movements and uprisings. The Panthers would surely disagree with the bolded


Neither are necessarily antithetical to Marx or a democratic, libertarian (Marxism) socialism (which itself is a broad term)

:leostare:Breh, this entire thread is you being rather ignorant of socialism but throwing shade regardless just because. Meaning you haven't really formed a great argument as to why you're against what the writer says in her last sentence.

i agree partially, this entire thread is me :pacspit: on socialism


:pachaha:You have no idea what you're talking about half the time
 
Last edited:

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
Public school bureaucracies have trouble adapting to the varying socioeconomic conditions kids come from. I agree with you on this. But the fact is parents should share just as much in a child's success as a teacher. Hell you already have a precedent set in some areas where parents faced jail time for their kids truancy

http://www.wthr.com/story/21292197/parents-face-jail-time-over-truant-children

Schools already have introductory programs for parents on common core, an investment made by the system to educate parents. Would it be crazy to incentivize some parents to stay on their kids studies? Or maybe offer additional tutoring? Or safe study zones for kids that live in dangerous areas? My stance remains that a child's success is just as important what occurs outside a school environment as in one.

thanks, you are making the case for me, you just explained why the public school system has to be eliminated and why parents need to have complete choice where they send their kids
 
Last edited:

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,799
Reputation
570
Daps
22,758
Reppin
Arrakis
The two are inseparable! There isn't any veering off-topic. You calling them separate as if the education problem isn't massively linked to poverty is a big part of what I mean. It's like separating crime and poverty.

i never said they were separate, i said that school reform is the key to anti poverty
And the Dean Baker and CEPR piece I posted shows over generations education alone is not the cure all you keep making it out to be.

thats just leftist gibberish

Wrong.
I'd argue for greater community control of education, and ultimately free education.

school is already free

Wrong.
I'd argue for greater community control of education, and ultimately free education. Organized resistance to and direct action against zero tolerance policies, high stakes testing and other standardization that turns students into numbers and robots (this includes the profit motive - the nature of capital is to maximize profit by cutting labor and handing raw materials to the bare minimum). Those methods come in a wide variety. A communal/labor-focused approach to capitalism (you got schooled on this previously :mjlol:) and a strengthening of social welfare in the short can be used, but these methods come with inherent limitations that history has seen play out negatively already and ultimately must be utilized in a manner that brings about capital and the state's own demise. Reduced labor hours and basic income are examples of non-reformist reforms that get to the heart of the matter, along with a more communal approach to survival (housing, food, healthcare in the community, etc.) There's no singular method to achieve these ends, and I don't know everything.
We have to continue to move outside of the structures, in some cases, we built. For example, unions are very cozy with capital and I think labor relations is set up in a way now that management will always have the upper hand.


this exposes whats really going on, you do not want community control, you want schools to teach socialist ideology, that is why you are against privatization, you socialist ideology requires government control of schools

what im saying is that every school should decide by itself what type of system or how they want to teach

You literally proved you didn't know what socialism even was in that other thread breh and that you were just shytting just to shyt on it @@JahFocus CS
I'm not hearing anything you have to say about anything left of Bernie Sanders bum ass :mjlol:

this is just a dumb circular argument, supposedly i dont agree with socialism so therefore i must not really understand socialism and the evidence that i dont understand socialism is that i dont agree with socialism :heh:
 
Top