Dominicans Have Reached a Boiling Point

[Brehvity3135]

RD just had 750k tourists in the month of July a record

On paces to break 7 million for the year

Just got the new airline as well out of the capital.

Arajet Announces Tickets Now Available from US$55 to North, Central and South America and the Caribbean

Arajet, the new low-fare Dominican national carrier, today announced its entry into the market through its website arajet.com with amazing fares starting fro...

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Arajet Announces Tickets Now Available from US$55 to North, Central and South America and the Caribbean​

Other side talking about core group and has revolutionary fantasies in 2022. You have to ask how could they get it so wrong?

 

[loyola llothta]

I find that hard to believe. Even the Canadian government helped kidnap Aristide.

You mean to say the govt of DR provides no assistance to US schemes in Haiti?

also the “rebels” came back through the borders with old school tanks…How the hell did DR let that happen ?


It’s not only that but the money they make off Haiti from export/imports

The 2010 earthquake bs contracts (to rebuild Haiti)

They just recently caught a Dominican that was involved with the kidnappings in Haiti

 

[Mirin4rmfar]

Nothing but conspiracy theories. DR has always been a bystanding witness to all the craziness that happens in Haiti. But some haitians (especially those pertaining to the elite class) love to beef with dominicans inventing stupid conspiracy theories.

When the president of Haiti was murdered, they first said the killers were dominican, turned out they were colombian. Then they said that the murder was planned in DR and later said that the murderers were assisted by the DR because they arrived in DR first and then crossed the border.

Last thing i read was that there are "many dominicans" in haitian gangs killing and kidnapping, which is completely false. Probably many of the members of these gangs are haitians that lived for some period of time in DR, but there's no way there's actual dominicans doing the killings and kidnappings in Haiti.

But you know what there are plenty of?? dominican victims of the violence in Haiti.

That bus the appears shot up in the first video of CNN, is a dominican bus from a company called "Caribe Tours".

It is not really a civil war because from social stand point, the average Haitian hate these gangs for what they are doing and stand for. Even people that live in these gang controlled territory, the majority of them don't necessarily share the same identity with the gangs.

Haiti's main issue is corruption and the need for power which is crippling the country.

 

[Brehvity3135]

why would Haitians wanna take over DR anyway?

Haiti is the country with all the legendary monuments and artifacts and the epic history.

DR has nothing but whores for white men to fukk.

Every nation needs a storyline.... The dominicans chose Haitians as the enemy in their storyline..... but the Dominicans are irrelevant in the Haitian storyline

We dont even think about them... we have bigger enemies to worry about

You can lead the way and honor Henri Christophe by being a good soldier. Of what purpose is a nation you are unwilling to fight for?

 

[Mirin4rmfar]

I will never blame exterior forces for the reason Haiti is this way past 87. Once Haiti became a democratic country, it was the start of it going down the drain. The issue is hard core corruption from Haitian officials. That is all it comes down to. A country should have the same issue it has for 30 plus years.

Let's take for example, exportation. The country exports everything and does not produce anything on the mass scale to fix itself. So we spend 30 years in power and can't somehow make produce shyt? Likely speaking, some government official is getting paid by some Haitian of arab descent that has exclusive rights to import shyt into the country and they allow this to continue instead of investing in agriculture to give jobs to Haitians and so that Haiti can fix itself.

It's like anywhere money can be made, there is corruption.

That's why I was arguing up and down with various Haitian that the former president was not the problem. The problem was he went into a burning house and tried to make changes. Things have gotten worse, what the current prime minister did was break off every major player in politics a piece of the government and gave them security(which means lack of resources for the population).

You can't continue to do this. Dude gets 1 percent vote yet does everything in his power to destabilize the country.

When our former president was bringing back the army, they made it into this controversial political play when the country NEEDS an army. Now people are starting to see the importance of an army and more security.

Haiti needs someone like Kagame, someone that puts Haiti first and is not afraid to put motherfukkers in body bags. One way foreign governments can help is start siezing properties own by Haitian politicians in their families. None of the major player in politics have their family in Haiti. That's terrible.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You can lead the way and honor Henri Christophe by being a good soldier. Of what purpose is a nation you are unwilling to fight for?

Youre not even Haitian or Dominican

If Haitians arent worried about Dominicans then you can imagine that we're definitely not worried about African Americans

The difference is, Haitians have a history of killing our sell out elites

I cant really say the same for the wannabe white boys on the other side of the island

theyre too busy worried about Haitian construction workers and street vendors instead of murdering their sell out elites

 

[Mega]

There is a Dominican Oligarch family called the Vinici's. They imported hundreds of Haitians for years to work on their sugarcane fields for export to international sugar titans like Domino sugar.

For decades they wanted cheap Haitian labor to fuel the rapid growth of their economy. Well now deal you got to deal with the problems that come with cheap labor.

 

[Brehvity3135]

Youre not even Haitian or Dominican

If Haitians arent worried about Dominicans then you can imagine that we're definitely not worried about African Americans

The difference is, Haitians have a history of killing our sell out elites

I cant really say the same for the wannabe white boys on the other side of the island

theyre too busy worried about Haitian construction workers and street vendors instead of murdering their sell out elites

And going by your namesake you’re not Haitian either.

Go be a good soldier. Talking crazy online wasn’t Mr. Henri’s idea of being a soldier.

 

[DrBanneker]

Thanks for the detailed response. I am neither Haitian nor Dominican but I also absorb history and given its nuances, whenever someone declares their view to be "reality" juxtaposed against others it always makes me go Sure there are a lot of Haitian nationalist loudmouths but its clear you've adopted the Dominican mirror view of this (which isn't right or wrong) but has its own issues

1. Yes it’s important to reiterate who arrived first because the way Haitian history is taught is that Dominicans didn’t exist until Haitian independence . So that’s important to their very identity but it’s a complete distortion of history and reality. You can peep the language in this very thread that alludes to this delusion. That’s basically the crux of their problems is that their identity has always been contentious.

Haitian nationhood and identity have had sharp contours, primarily because of the Black/Mulatto divide but saying the DR's classification is important to Haitian identity is a stretch. Both sides flex and you point out the Haitian distortions while repping the DR ones.

Let’s stop the slavery bit because the same system was imposed by Boyer during the occupation. Black Haitians were condemned to a plot of land. And Dominicans didnt have freedom of movement.

The annexation by the US wasn’t a serious problem for the simple fact the US wasn’t going to admit a free mixed raced population ie “black” into their Union. Especially one attached to Haiti. That’s not why Haiti continued attempting to invade. Sad they continued to lose when they had damn near 5x the population but that’s what happens when you don’t know peace and see point 1. Soulouque despised mixed race people to begin with. He murdered his own at some point so the narrative of being afraid of slavery is a distortion of reality.


Again see point 1. The identity has always been contentious.

Let's not mix points. I wasn't talking about Boyer (a mulatto) and his policies in Haiti and the DR. I was speaking of Soulouque's motives. Sure conquest was one but there was serious info (or more likely disinfo) from Britain and other powers on this point as the great powers fought over DR, especially rights to Samana. Saying Soulouque was just bloodthirsty because he "hated mulattoes" and there weren't other political complexities is simplistic.

As far as knowing peace and stability it is strange again you act as if the DR is so superior to Haiti in this time. We going to act like Santana stabbing Durate and others in the back and having them exiled or killed is good governance, just to put down Haiti? How about Baez repeatedly becoming president and getting overthrown repeatedly as well in the late 19th century? The whole island unfortunately has been a mess for most of its history.

3. I’m aware of the different constitutions but that’s not an indication of instability here. That’s a very Americanized viewpoint of nationhood. The reason for the continuing changes to the constitution are due to politicians wanting to leave their footprint. The core principles remain in tact.

If you ever read the constitution of 1805 it’s pure comedy and an insight into their identity crisis.

Um, not having a stable written foundation for your government is hardly an American point of view on a country's stability. Only one country--the UK--has really pulled off having no constitution in modern times and they are unique. I'm not saying they had to have one constitution---only the US and Netherlands have had long term constitutions still in effect I believe--just their government has been in a lot of damn flux which you want to downplay for your narrative. In one breath you dismiss the fact of constitutional turnover in DR and in the next you go all the way back to Haiti's first constitution to "prove" something about Haitian identity. Is that not a very Dominicanized viewpoint of Haiti's constitutional history?

The Haitian identity isn't that contentious--it's who will control the island. So I guess there is no South African White identity b/c of the Boer/Anglo clashes nor a Spanish identity because of the various regionalisms, not just Catalonia and Basque country or no German identity since that country is younger than either Haiti or DR and had a huge rift between the Protestant North and Catholic South until after WWII. Come on man.

4. Spaniards aren’t vilified for a multitude of reasons. Maybe because they are diplomatic partners today. Maybe because they aren’t a threat today. But I often read this as if it’s a slight. Lol they are pretty much irrelevant in daily discussion.

Ok. But way to ignore the example I gave in Geffrard and Haiti actually helping DR during the Spanish annexation. Also, after the Spanish were kicked out Haiti never invaded again. Maybe after Faustin was gone and the Second Empire ended Haiti was a bit more stable and had more modern (though imperfect) rulers. But since Haiti has to be shown as a burden and basket case at every opportunity, we can just sweep all that under the rug I guess. All the positive stuff Frederick Douglass said about Haiti, despite his problems, when he was a consul general there was hotep babble?

You do well to point out some common Haitian conceits in this thread but a lot of your "reality" is the nationalist DR history popularized from Trujillo through Balaguer among others. If DR history was so plain and simple Trujillo wouldn't be killing and expelling people and popularizing historical narratives to prevent "Haitianization".

 

[richaveli83]

Prayers to the Haitian brothers and sisters. I fear things are going to get ugly soon.

 

[richaveli83]

The Dominican elites and the Dominican agriculture sector benefits from the current immigration situation

Easy source of cheap labor and an open market to export their bullshyt products directly next door.

Tell the Dominicans to build the wall and cut all diplomatic relations.... but they WON'T do that because theyre full of shyt.

Kind of like the republicans when it comes to the border wall and illegal immigration, primarily from Mexico and Central America.

 

[Brehvity3135]

Thanks for the detailed response. I am neither Haitian nor Dominican but I also absorb history and given its nuances, whenever someone declares their view to be "reality" juxtaposed against others it always makes me go Sure there are a lot of Haitian nationalist loudmouths but its clear you've adopted the Dominican mirror view of this (which isn't right or wrong) but has its own issues





Haitian nationhood and identity have had sharp contours, primarily because of the Black/Mulatto divide but saying the DR's classification is important to Haitian identity is a stretch. Both sides flex and you point out the Haitian distortions while repping the DR ones.



Let's not mix points. I wasn't talking about Boyer (a mulatto) and his policies in Haiti and the DR. I was speaking of Soulouque's motives. Sure conquest was one but there was serious info (or more likely disinfo) from Britain and other powers on this point as the great powers fought over DR, especially rights to Samana. Saying Soulouque was just bloodthirsty because he "hated mulattoes" and there weren't other political complexities is simplistic.

As far as knowing peace and stability it is strange again you act as if the DR is so superior to Haiti in this time. We going to act like Santana stabbing Durate and others in the back and having them exiled or killed is good governance, just to put down Haiti? How about Baez repeatedly becoming president and getting overthrown repeatedly as well in the late 19th century? The whole island unfortunately has been a mess for most of its history.





Um, not having a stable written foundation for your government is hardly an American point of view on a country's stability. Only one country--the UK--has really pulled off having no constitution in modern times and they are unique. I'm not saying they had to have one constitution---only the US and Netherlands have had long term constitutions still in effect I believe--just their government has been in a lot of damn flux which you want to downplay for your narrative. In one breath you dismiss the fact of constitutional turnover in DR and in the next you go all the way back to Haiti's first constitution to "prove" something about Haitian identity. Is that not a very Dominicanized viewpoint of Haiti's constitutional history?

The Haitian identity isn't that contentious--it's who will control the island. So I guess there is no South African White identity b/c of the Boer/Anglo clashes nor a Spanish identity because of the various regionalisms, not just Catalonia and Basque country or no German identity since that country is younger than either Haiti or DR and had a huge rift between the Protestant North and Catholic South until after WWII. Come on man.



Ok. But way to ignore the example I gave in Geffrard and Haiti actually helping DR during the Spanish annexation. Also, after the Spanish were kicked out Haiti never invaded again. Maybe after Faustin was gone and the Second Empire ended Haiti was a bit more stable and had more modern (though imperfect) rulers. But since Haiti has to be shown as a burden and basket case at every opportunity, we can just sweep all that under the rug I guess. All the positive stuff Frederick Douglass said about Haiti, despite his problems, when he was a consul general there was hotep babble?

You do well to point out some common Haitian conceits in this thread but a lot of your "reality" is the nationalist DR history popularized from Trujillo through Balaguer among others. If DR history was so plain and simple Trujillo wouldn't be killing and expelling people and popularizing historical narratives to prevent "Haitianization".

I don’t view these guys as Haitian nationalists. You have to be in your country to be a nationalist lol. These guys are cosplaying and proud from abroad. There is nothing worse than seeing men in another country right next door as theirs burn smh. When do the men of a nation actually fight for it? That’s why @Henri Christophe won’t make due on being a good soldier. The very document he loves (1805) which outlines what it means to be Haitian, he won’t fulfill those requirements. See that document was stating Haitian nationality was to be earned, not given. Reason why I mentioned their first constitution is because many believe that is the only true Haitian document without foreign influence. The problem is it’s very strict in language and tongue.

I don’t believe my position was nationalistic either. It’s just facts and you can see the importance of Haitians stating “there were was no Dominican identity before Haitians”. Again part of their entire identity is based on tying themselves to the first inhabitants of the island. It’s in the name Ayiti itself and why they struggle with admitting a simple truth that the people who became Dominicans were there before Haitians. The Dominican identity was before Haitian identity. Documents provided in this thread by @SomeoneFromThePast shows that but it’s pointless because it shatters their entire thought process on their identity.

Gerard didn’t help DR, he straight up got punked by Spaniards who said “help and catch the fade” lol. I can’t find the articles but he was pretty much despised by Haitians for backing down to Spaniards.

Haitian nationhood and identity have had sharp contours, primarily because of the Black/Mulatto divide but saying the DR's classification is important to Haitian identity is a stretch. Both sides flex and you point out the Haitian distortions while repping the DR ones

We cannot ignore this. This is their problem as the black and mulattos of their nation never truly unified. It was by force and betrayal their unity in pre revolution and this became so post revolution. @Henri Christophe and other Haitian fonts have disparaged their presence in the country in this very thread. Again the identity of what it means to be Haitian has always been contentious. The way history materialized in the RD, you don’t have that.

Let's not mix points. I wasn't talking about Boyer (a mulatto) and his policies in Haiti and the DR. I was speaking of Soulouque's motives. Sure conquest was one but there was serious info (or more likely disinfo) from Britain and other powers on this point as the great powers fought over DR, especially rights to Samana. Saying Soulouque was just bloodthirsty because he "hated mulattoes" and there weren't other political complexities is simplistic.

Part of their success in revolution was due to the population size. Haiti during the Soulouque’s years had at least a 1 million to 200k advantage yet was dispelled repeatedly. I think you’re downplaying his bloodthirst and contempt for mixed raced people. Lol he ordered the death of his own countrymen. Again what does it mean to be Haitian? This isn’t as simple as ideological differences. When it was declared a black nation and all it’s people black regardless if they were black (symbolic gesture but dumb to begin with) that obviously didn’t work.

The Haitian identity isn't that contentious--it's who will control the island. So I guess there is no South African White identity b/c of the Boer/Anglo clashes nor a Spanish identity because of the various regionalisms, not just Catalonia and Basque country or no German identity since that country is younger than either Haiti or DR and had a huge rift between the Protestant North and Catholic South until after WWII. Come on man.

It’s not about who will control the island. Dominicans never wanted to control the entire island. Never. When they had the opportunity to they opted against because they wanted nothing to do with Haitians. You see them in this very thread wanting to regain control of the entire island. Again language manners. They call the entire island “Ayiti” in remembrance of these days. Again that’s a one sided problem.

I’ll address the rest later

 

[Brehvity3135]

Um, not having a stable written foundation for your government is hardly an American point of view on a country's stability. Only one country--the UK--has really pulled off having no constitution in modern times and they are unique. I'm not saying they had to have one constitution---only the US and Netherlands have had long term constitutions still in effect I believe--just their government has been in a lot of damn flux which you want to downplay for your narrative. In one breath you dismiss the fact of constitutional turnover in DR and in the next you go all the way back to Haiti's first constitution to "prove" something about Haitian identity. Is that not a very Dominicanized viewpoint of Haiti's constitutional history?

“The Dominican Republic has gone through 39 constitutions, more than any other country, since its independence in 1844. This statistic is a somewhat deceiving indicator of political stability, however, because of the Dominican practice of promulgating a new constitution whenever an amendment is ratified.”

Again as stated it is an Americanized viewpoint of nationhood because we don’t draft new constitutions whenever an amendment is ratified. If American did we’d have 27 new constitutions since inception . So your point about Dominican stability in relation to minor ratification is moot. It doesn’t mean what you think it means.

As far as knowing peace and stability it is strange again you act as if the DR is so superior to Haiti in this time. We going to act like Santana stabbing Durate and others in the back and having them exiled or killed is good governance, just to put down Haiti? How about Baez repeatedly becoming president and getting overthrown repeatedly as well in the late 19th century? The whole island unfortunately has been a mess for most of its history

Stability comes from security and inner turmoil that has plagued Haiti. Dominican Republic has endured the similar dissent amongst the highest offices. But the major difference is none were crazy enough to deprive their nation of diplomacy with larger nations. Cutting off access to the markets that rule the world is an eternal L, because those countries are going to apply pressure which will make the people suffer. See Cuba and Haiti. While ppl who don’t live in both nations, proudly display their flags from the comforts of American democracy championing the decisions made by despots in both countries. At least in Dominican sense there were attempts at diplomacy.

To your point of Frederick Douglass he visited Samana as well. During the period of DR attempting annexation with the US. The same place African Americans (6-8k) resettled to. Many died on the voyage and many left after a couple of years upon arrival. Well read the Inquiry to Santo Domingo and you’ll see personal accounts of why some left after arrival. And guess what? It wasn’t because of Dominicans .

haitianization? Breh you can visit the island. Take a tour. Not just to Punta Cana but even if you do the entire city of Bavaro is Haitian at this point. San Pedro de Macoris?

Barahona?

Azua?

Pedernales?

Again I thought it was hyperbole but living here I fully understand. Dominican Republic cannot carry their burdens. Chile cannot carry their burdens. Bahamas cannot carry their burdens. Brazil cannot carry their burdens. Mexico cannot carry their burdens.

You have a font in this thread who is of Jamaican descent who stated he forgot what country he was in visiting the Dominican Republic.

 

[get these nets]

Haiti has never been as destabilized in my lifetime, as it is now. Even the oldest people in our families have never seen it this bad.

Backlash from the people who share the island was inevitable, as our problems spill over and become their problems.

As Haiti descends into chaos, Dominican president brings concerns to Washington

September 14, 2022

AP Dominican Republic President Luis Abinader is in Washington this week and he has one issue that is top of mind — Haiti. The two countries share the island of Hispaniola and ever since last July’s assassination of Haitian President Jovenel Moïse, Abinader has been on a mission to get the United States and others in the international community to do more to address Haiti’s ongoing multidimensional crisis. This includes taking concrete measures to curb migration and supporting a multinational strike force to go in and tackle Haiti’s kidnapping gangs.

Sources familiar with the president’s visit to the Organization of American States on Thursday won’t say much other than he plans to discuss the need for more regional involvement before the hemispheric body. His visit comes ahead of an appearance on Sept. 22 before the United Nations General Assembly, where he is expected to go on the offensive and demand a regional solution to Haiti’s potentially explosive social, economic and political crises. Haiti’s deepening political instability and gang orchestrated violence, Abinader and his representatives have argued before the OAS and UN, present “an unusual and extraordinary threat to the Dominican Republic’s national security, foreign policy and its economy.”

Despite this, the Dominican Republic has struggled to win support on the international stage for an outside force to go into Haiti and help stabilize the country. In June, the country’s representative to the United Nations called on the UN Security Council to support another U.N. peacekeeping mission to Haiti. Instead, members voted unanimously on to extend the mandate of the U.N. Integrated Office in Haiti. The resolution was drafted by the United States and Mexico, and included a compromise proposed by China to address the illegal sale of arms and munitions to Haitian gangs.

But the agreement doesn’t’ go far enough for the Dominican Republic, which wants a more robust security security plan to address the gang violence and instability. Last week, Abinader listed the names of a dozen prominent Haitian gang leaders who are not allowed to enter his territory. He also added to the list Haiti’s former foreign minister and interim prime minister, Claude Joseph. The communique warning Dominican immigration officials not to allow Joseph into the country did not explain the reasons for the ban. Dominican officials contacted by the Miami Herald have declined to elaborate

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

I was honestly waiting for this to happen, I am always in DR and told wifey that the Dominicans are going to start protesting because the massive influx of Haitian residents. The Haitians are taking over and the manual labor jobs are pretty much dominated by Haitians. All new construction buildings are pretty much Haitians, I dont mind it personally because there I have a confort zone with fellow black people but DR has been trying to stop the influx of illegal immigrants and it seems they are losing the fight at this point.

Thanks for the context. How much of this do you think is based on labor economics?